36 replies to this topic

[blinkin]

Adridos, on 16 February 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

Counter points, served one by one...

1st: Balances Clan tech -> You have guys running around with bajillions in their pockets who can ride them all they want and then there would be people like you and me who don't have that much money and would have to fight at a rather huge disadvantage. No, you only make the imbalance bigger.

their "bajillions" don't gather interest. yes they will likely have an advantage for some time, but that will eventually run out. in fact the harsher the penalty is the faster people with high end mechs will be brought down to a level playing field.

2nd: Balances the number of high-end mechs -> Same as with Clan tech. And punishing people just becuase they didn' pay as much as you did? What kind of stupid reasoning is that? If they have the skill, they should be allowed to roll over your your face.

if they have the skill they will make up for the repair bills, or they might not even have them because their mech is not hurt very often. i have a catapult that in total with all of it's parts costs about 11,000,000cbills. i have always had this catapult or some similar form of it since the first few weeks of closed beta (see founders tag).

through all of closed beta repair and rearm was there in some form. in the last version before repair and rearm was removed my repair bill was usually between 75,000-150,000cbills. a loss earned you 75,000cbills and a win earned you 100,000cbills. there were also rewards for killing mechs and destroying components.

now do a little math. if i played poorly with my expensive mech i was very likely to lose money even if my team won. my mech would punish me harshly if i was not a strong enough pilot.

3rd: Immersion, right.... -> I'm a house warrior and suprise, suprise, we don't pay for repairs or rearms, that's job of the tax-payers. Same goes with Clanners.

i chose my tag just because i liked the look of it to be honest. the majority of my mechwarrior experience comes from the mechwarrior mercenaries games. i think having at least some basic concern for the well being of your mech, makes for much more interesting and engaging gameplay.

my mech and i should be a team. my mech should not just be a nail to be hammered into the enemy and then forgotten.

4th: Challenge -> The challenge in the game is now bigger, since everyone can pull off a last-ditch effort and possibly turn it over. Much bigger of a challenge than someone just powering down in fear of higher bills, ain't it?

i punish cowards.

if a pilot powers down that means they don't get any rewards for fighting while i tear them apart. most pilots will fight much harder to keep their mech alive if they know how much it could cost them later.

but my original point about challenge was the personal player challenge. as stated earlier if i played poorly my catapult would punish me. that is the challenge i am talking about. pilots should not be allowed to get lazy just because they have good gear. pilots should be forced to justify the equipment they have. if a pilot has an 11,000,000cbill mech then that pilot needs to play at an 11,000,000cbill level.

5th: End bots -> They DC and don't receive any damage. Trust me, you can't beat those guys.

mechs stay in game even if you disconnect. mechs in game soak up damage (this was how it worked before). if the bot (or AFK) is regularly leading to a mech being destroyed, then it is very likely that with repair and rearm that spamming matches with a bot will cost cbills. the desire to use bots is at the very least reduced.

there were no bots at any point while repair and rearm was in game. immediately after RR was removed a bot and disconnect epidemic ensued. this may be coincidence but a correlation seems very likely.

sorry for the delay. you did make some decent points, and i took some time to gather my thoughts before returning fire.

[Adridos]

Thanks for the response... I'm going to enjoy shredding it to pieces.

A1:Their "bajillions" don't gather interest. yes they will likely have an advantage for some time, but that will eventually run out. in fact the harsher the penalty is the faster people with high end mechs will be brought down to a level playing field.

CA:But if the penalty is harsh enough to bancrupt a person with 1000 times the money a usual guy has, what does it mean for the usual guy? If it brings them down, we don't even stand a chance to ever get there.

A2:If they have the skill they will make up for the repair bills, or they might not even have them because their mech is not hurt very often. i have a catapult that in total with all of it's parts costs about 11,000,000 cbills. i have always had this catapult or some similar form of it since the first few weeks of closed beta (see founders tag).

Through all of closed beta repair and rearm was there in some form. in the last version before repair and rearm was removed my repair bill was usually between 75,000-150,000cbills. a loss earned you 75,000cbills and a win earned you 100,000cbills. there were also rewards for killing mechs and destroying components.

Now do a little math. if i played poorly with my expensive mech i was very likely to lose money even if my team won. my mech would punish me harshly if i was not a strong enough pilot.

Noobody can master a mech from the get go and it is inevitable he will fail a few times... and 3 times that since then he'll have to move on to variants that are, again, alien to him. And now you want him to even get discuradged every time he doesn't drop with a team, because in pubs, you can't possibly get into green numbers and always get destroyed no matter how good you are? That isn't called immersion, it's called masochism (you want the game to torture people and heck, even the guys in BTech don't have that many problems with it, since if they fail, they die, and at least don't have to deal with building up everything from scratch again. And this goes ten-fold in a game where you are sure to loose ~50% of your matches - ELO).

A3: I chose my tag just because i liked the look of it to be honest. the majority of my mechwarrior experience comes from the mechwarrior mercenaries games. i think having at least some basic concern for the well being of your mech, makes for much more interesting and engaging gameplay.

My mech and i should be a team. my mech should not just be a nail to be hammered into the enemy and then forgotten.

CA: You know, we should b choosing what side we stand on (house vs merc vs lone) and it could be possible to make house warriors not have repairs and you do, but that would mean that house warriors would roll over mercs 9 times out of 10 due to superior equipment and higher battlefield frenzy.

A4:I punish cowards.

If a pilot powers down that means they don't get any rewards for fighting while i tear them apart. most pilots will fight much harder to keep their mech alive if they know how much it could cost them later.

But my original point about challenge was the personal player challenge. as stated earlier if i played poorly my catapult would punish me. that is the challenge i am talking about. pilots should not be allowed to get lazy just because they have good gear. pilots should be forced to justify the equipment they have. if a pilot has an 11,000,000cbill mech then that pilot needs to play at an 11,000,000cbill level.

CA: They're not cowards, they are people who play by your rules. If the repair penalty is so hardsh, then the logical course of action is to disengage and hide. It's the right way to play when you're one with your mech. As I said, you are going to loose matches and you will loose your Catapult for sure if you actually fight. Thus your mechanic directly encourages passive behavior of shooting a bit and then stopping fighting. And that, ofc, hurts the game.

A5: Mechs stay in game even if you disconnect. mechs in game soak up damage (this was how it worked before). if the bot (or AFK) is regularly leading to a mech being destroyed, then it is very likely that with repair and rearm that spamming matches with a bot will cost cbills. the desire to use bots is at the very least reduced.

There were no bots at any point while repair and rearm was in game. immediately after RR was removed a bot and disconnect epidemic ensued. this may be coincidence but a correlation seems very likely.

CA: I've been in the beta for quite some time and I and everyone around will tell you bots were common even then. Or do you not remember hordes of trial Ravens running stratight at enemy to get out of the match ASAP? As I said, no matter what you do, they always find a way.

[Stringburka]

How do you people feel about my suggestion here? link

Blinkin has already made some input but would be nice with more feedback.

[Hotthedd]

Adridos, on 17 February 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

Thanks for the response... I'm going to enjoy shredding it to pieces.

A1:Their "bajillions" don't gather interest. yes they will likely have an advantage for some time, but that will eventually run out. in fact the harsher the penalty is the faster people with high end mechs will be brought down to a level playing field.

CA:But if the penalty is harsh enough to bancrupt a person with 1000 times the money a usual guy has, what does it mean for the usual guy? If it brings them down, we don't even stand a chance to ever get there.

A2:If they have the skill they will make up for the repair bills, or they might not even have them because their mech is not hurt very often. i have a catapult that in total with all of it's parts costs about 11,000,000 cbills. i have always had this catapult or some similar form of it since the first few weeks of closed beta (see founders tag).

Through all of closed beta repair and rearm was there in some form. in the last version before repair and rearm was removed my repair bill was usually between 75,000-150,000cbills. a loss earned you 75,000cbills and a win earned you 100,000cbills. there were also rewards for killing mechs and destroying components.

Now do a little math. if i played poorly with my expensive mech i was very likely to lose money even if my team won. my mech would punish me harshly if i was not a strong enough pilot.

Noobody can master a mech from the get go and it is inevitable he will fail a few times... and 3 times that since then he'll have to move on to variants that are, again, alien to him. And now you want him to even get discuradged every time he doesn't drop with a team, because in pubs, you can't possibly get into green numbers and always get destroyed no matter how good you are? That isn't called immersion, it's called masochism (you want the game to torture people and heck, even the guys in BTech don't have that many problems with it, since if they fail, they die, and at least don't have to deal with building up everything from scratch again. And this goes ten-fold in a game where you are sure to loose ~50% of your matches - ELO).

A3: I chose my tag just because i liked the look of it to be honest. the majority of my mechwarrior experience comes from the mechwarrior mercenaries games. i think having at least some basic concern for the well being of your mech, makes for much more interesting and engaging gameplay.

My mech and i should be a team. my mech should not just be a nail to be hammered into the enemy and then forgotten.

CA: You know, we should b choosing what side we stand on (house vs merc vs lone) and it could be possible to make house warriors not have repairs and you do, but that would mean that house warriors would roll over mercs 9 times out of 10 due to superior equipment and higher battlefield frenzy.

A4:I punish cowards.

If a pilot powers down that means they don't get any rewards for fighting while i tear them apart. most pilots will fight much harder to keep their mech alive if they know how much it could cost them later.

But my original point about challenge was the personal player challenge. as stated earlier if i played poorly my catapult would punish me. that is the challenge i am talking about. pilots should not be allowed to get lazy just because they have good gear. pilots should be forced to justify the equipment they have. if a pilot has an 11,000,000cbill mech then that pilot needs to play at an 11,000,000cbill level.

CA: They're not cowards, they are people who play by your rules. If the repair penalty is so hardsh, then the logical course of action is to disengage and hide. It's the right way to play when you're one with your mech. As I said, you are going to loose matches and you will loose your Catapult for sure if you actually fight. Thus your mechanic directly encourages passive behavior of shooting a bit and then stopping fighting. And that, ofc, hurts the game.

A5: Mechs stay in game even if you disconnect. mechs in game soak up damage (this was how it worked before). if the bot (or AFK) is regularly leading to a mech being destroyed, then it is very likely that with repair and rearm that spamming matches with a bot will cost cbills. the desire to use bots is at the very least reduced.

There were no bots at any point while repair and rearm was in game. immediately after RR was removed a bot and disconnect epidemic ensued. this may be coincidence but a correlation seems very likely.

CA: I've been in the beta for quite some time and I and everyone around will tell you bots were common even then. Or do you not remember hordes of trial Ravens running stratight at enemy to get out of the match ASAP? As I said, no matter what you do, they always find a way.

House Warriors should have their 'mechs assigned to them, and be non-customized if you want to get "realistic".

Since that is not going to happen, even house warriors should foot the bill for their customized 'mechs.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

R&R somehow works in World of Tanks. In MWO it was abused frequently because it was done wrong.
I think the way to fix it would be something like that:
- no free 75% rearm, you have to buy any ammo you want to use, but its cost shoud be significantly lowered, you can enter a match even without ammo if you wish;
- if any section (by section I mean left arm, center torso etc.) of a mech is not destroyed, but it's HP are lower than 50% it is repaired for free up to 50% - so if it lost only small part of its health it's not repaired for free;
- if a section is lost it's repaired for free to 25% of original HP;
- if you want your mech fully repaired you have to pay (prices would have to be adjusted), however you can choose which section you want to repair;
- the three points above are separate for armour and internals;
- you can only enter a match if your mech overall 'health' is higher than 75%.

[Elder Thorn]

Shivaxi, on 16 February 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

pay to win is not happening sorry guys, deal with it.

"(eventually) balances clan tech" This is the most ******** reason for wanting repair and rearm I've ever seen. This would NOT balance clan tech. This would just make the game even MORE pay to win. I don't even need to explain this one for people who are actually smart.

Go back to your World of Tanks

(oh and fyi, the reason there are so little medium weight mechs running around is because they're pretty much broken, seeing as you get less weight and less firepower and no trade off for it. less armor...same speed since they limited engines...hardpoints arent anything special...they need to fix medium mechs)

i asked it back then, and i ask it now: how is Repair and Rearm p2w? It's not like you can't repair if you do not pay REAL money.

However, i agree on the medium mech part

Krzysztof z Bagien, on 17 February 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

R&R somehow works in World of Tanks. In MWO it was abused frequently because it was done wrong.
I think the way to fix it would be something like that:
- no free 75% rearm, you have to buy any ammo you want to use, but its cost shoud be significantly lowered, you can enter a match even without ammo if you wish;
- if any section (by section I mean left arm, center torso etc.) of a mech is not destroyed, but it's HP are lower than 50% it is repaired for free up to 50% - so if it lost only small part of its health it's not repaired for free;
- if a section is lost it's repaired for free to 25% of original HP;
- if you want your mech fully repaired you have to pay (prices would have to be adjusted), however you can choose which section you want to repair;
- the three points above are separate for armour and internals;
- you can only enter a match if your mech overall 'health' is higher than 75%.

tbh: no!
No free repairs at all, otherwise it will actually bring back botting.
If you mech lost an arm or his leg, it will stay gone until you pay to repair it. If your mech got cored: well.. repair it or you won't bring it to any battle at all.

edit: oh and I'd like to add:
i am pretty sure, that i earned more c-bills on total when there was RnR. Now i have to keep farming for another variant of a mech even if i allready got all basic skills.

Edited by Elder Thorn, 17 February 2013 - 07:31 AM.

[Adridos]

Hotthedd, on 17 February 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

House Warriors should have their 'mechs assigned to them, and be non-customized if you want to get "realistic".

Since that is not going to happen, even house warriors should foot the bill for their customized 'mechs.

Neither do mercs, except for the biggest players and you aren't playing as one of those.

[Hotthedd]

Adridos, on 17 February 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Neither do mercs, except for the biggest players and you aren't playing as one of those.

Mercs DO pay R&R, they just negotiate contracts that cover that cost.

[Adridos]

Hotthedd, on 17 February 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

Mercs DO pay R&R, they just negotiate contracts that cover that cost.

I'm talking about this:
"House Warriors should have their 'mechs assigned to them, and be non-customized if you want to get "realistic"."

The mercs and house warriors have the same amount of control over the mech they get and own.

[Hotthedd]

Adridos, on 17 February 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

I'm talking about this:
"House Warriors should have their 'mechs assigned to them, and be non-customized if you want to get "realistic"."

The mercs and house warriors have the same amount of control over the mech they get and own.

Mercs generally supply their own 'mechs. Only the newer recruits start in a company-owned 'mech. Lone wolves (1 man mercenary companies) ALWAYS supply their own 'mechs.

House warriors (and clanners), OTOH are soldiers. They take assignments. If they are assigned a Raven 4x, that is what they pilot until reassigned.

[Stormwolf]

Adridos, on 17 February 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

I'm talking about this:
"House Warriors should have their 'mechs assigned to them, and be non-customized if you want to get "realistic"."

The mercs and house warriors have the same amount of control over the mech they get and own.

Well, the use of mechs in Houses can be a complicated matter, some pilots own the mechs they inherited from their parents.
Other mechs are owned by the House military itself and can often be freely assigned in a unit. Justin Allard assigned Andrew Redburn to a Spider on the day they were attacked by Gray Noton and those Capellan mooks for instance.

[p4g3m4s7r]

Elder Thorn, on 17 February 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

i asked it back then, and i ask it now: how is Repair and Rearm p2w? It's not like you can't repair if you do not pay REAL money.

However, i agree on the medium mech part

I'd disagree with the p2w part as well, but it is grind to win. Whoever is willing to play in the least enjoyable way (a.k.a. grinding) is allowed to play in a more fun way and will beat others who aren't willing to grind. This is bad on two levels.

1: people are playing this to play a stompy robot shooter, not an RPG. So at the very best using the meta-game MC grind to balance weapons is just going to turn off new players who aren't getting what they expected or who take too long to catch on. This would almost be okay if the game advertised this as the intended kind of gameplay.

2: this is really unrewarding grinding. You grind to gain enough money for a very temporary reward. While you're grinding, you're at a huge disadvantage to those who are currently cashing in on their grinding. This will make the grinding aspect feel like playing an unfair game that is not in your favor so that you can later play an unfair game that is in your favor.

Keep in mind that this is distinctly different than practice to win, since you do not win because you got better.

I guess if you were to make a p2w argument it would be that having premium time substantially negates the ill effects of R&R to the point that you could play with expensive weapons substantially more often and thus win substantially more often.

Elder Thorn, on 17 February 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

tbh: no!
No free repairs at all, otherwise it will actually bring back botting.
If you mech lost an arm or his leg, it will stay gone until you pay to repair it. If your mech got cored: well.. repair it or you won't bring it to any battle at all.

edit: oh and I'd like to add:
i am pretty sure, that i earned more c-bills on total when there was RnR. Now i have to keep farming for another variant of a mech even if i allready got all basic skills.

Botting will exist as long as trial mechs exist and you can get money for using them (which is basically unavoidable). I've actually seen substantially less botting since the loss of R&R. I believe it's because the reward for losing is so much lower for someone running a trial mech or a mech that's worth nothing, due to loss and per match income being lowered to account for no R&R.

Statistically, we should all be making very slightly more money, according to one of the NGNG podcasts where they asked a dev about it. If that means you're making less money because you played "smarter" than everyone, that's too bad. To me, R&R wasn't fair, because I made way more money than my friends who were more valuable to the team and accomplished more during a match. I simply liked piloting a light commando streakboat who could really only kill other lights or nearly dead straggler assaults. There should be rewards for all styles of gameplay, but as is, there was no real reward for playing as an assault or anything with exotic equipment other than whatever enjoyment you might naturally get out of it.

[Beeman]

You know, I didn't mind paying for repair and rearm. Though, it made me sad that my founder's atlas wasn't very profitable because of it. It's abysmally slow as it is earning cbills for mechs or major overhauls of mechs. I'd hate to have that slowed down even more by repair and rearm.

But they'd probably rework rewards in general if they reintroduced repair/rearm costs.

Definitely need a survey, to see how many non-forum using players think it's a good/bad/ugly idea.

[Kahoumono]

It should be an option for those who want the repair and rearm experience. For regular folks, the free repair is fine.

[p4g3m4s7r]

Kahoumono, on 17 February 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

It should be an option for those who want the repair and rearm experience. For regular folks, the free repair is fine.

This doesn't make any sense. This is effectively two economies, and it will be incredibly difficult to make it balanced. On top of that, people who tend to want R&R want it because it prevents other people from using "stupid" builds that are arbitrarily dumb (a.k.a. they have weapons and equipment that are, for the purposes of lore, arbitrarily expensive). By giving people who want to play these builds the option to not R&R, you still tick off the people who want R&R.

[Bogus]

I'd be okay with something like this if it only counted against the base win/loss amount and performance bonuses were 'gravy'. Lest we forget one of the reasons game balance got horribly broken in the pre-2013 era is people just didn't try to fight hard because there was no point--even if they did some good damage and lost they were still out money.

The current system rewards people going balls to the wall even if defeat is guaranteed, and I like that. And we need it...speaking as someone who's played Eve-Online for many years, if going out with a bang just gets you screwed then combat becomes *very* boring very fast. And unlike EO, MWO contains nothing but the combat right now.

[miscreant]

-1

Worst idea ever.