54 replies to this topic

[Stone Profit]

Inappropriate1191, on 17 February 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

TL;DR Alt account of dev/shill for devs tries to justify outrageous prices.

Here's some truth for you.
Fact: I want to buy some hero mechs
Opinion: Hero mechs pricing is completely idiotic.
Fact: Therefore, I am not going to buy any of them.
Opinion: If they made prices more reasonable, I'd not only buy a few hero mechs (PB, IM, and Flame are the ones in particular), I'd buy premium time more often.
Another Fact: I bought premium time when they were offering 40% off for a week's worth of it.

I'm not the only one, and the facts are clear. Lower prices, then you increase demand exponentially. Not only would you have far more customers, you'll get far more REPEAT customers, this, in turn, would increase profitability. Selling digital crap isn't like selling a real product, you don't have to worry about supply, so as a result, the only cost in the hero mechs, is the manhours put in to make them.

Of course, PGI has bean counters churning these numbers, so maybe they hit something that I didn't. Still, as it stands, I, and people like me, won't be buying their digital crap, when there's tons of plastic crap to buy instead.

I bought them all. Im also not poor or cheap as so very many who complain about the price. If its too much for you dont buy it and quit whining. Most of us buy things with a much lesser value on a daily basis. I could drink all the money I spent3nt on heros in a bar in o e night and not5 sweat it. Maybe you should spend less time on the computer and more time working if that's the issue. Also, fixed that for you

[Archtype]

What about charging money for a game that is worth playing? Right now IGP is making money hand over fist through table top pricing.

The state of the game has people leaving in droves, many of the best pilots in my clan are bored to **** with this. No maps, no meta game and debilitating bugs. They are not abandoning the game because there is nothing to buy, but because besides owning everything there is nothing to do.

IGP even gouges us on MC to CB conversion through mech purchases. The most advanced and limited tech in the universe and has no salvage or resale value, but remember OP is insisting their economy is completely realistic in its pricing.

At Christmas we had a statue of a commando that was double the price of an actual commando chassis. Currently we are experiencing pricing at a tabletop level (TT extortion). 10 to 30 dollars for a model to use in game. Paint is is even worse, they charge IRL paint pot prices.

I have bought mechs in the past with MC, though the exchange is seriously diminished with chassis sale returns at less than 50% (rarest tech in the verse...). I will not buy mechs, I insist on experiencing this as a micro transaction, so just MC to XP conversion and premium time occasionally. (still running out the founder's time).

The reality of non retail sales is there is not a shelving cost, of course with MWO there are sever costs, dev salaries, advertising, etc. to consider. Subsequently you need to look at the rate of diminishing returns, which is how many of item "A" you sell at how much before you stop gaining sales volume.

Steam has shown that sales and low prices for purely informational properties (digital download titles) boosts sales exponentially. IGP operates on the concept that BT and MW has 20 years of players, individuals who represent a wallet demographic that supports prices like this. That really is true for a limited part of the community.

What is also true about the community supporting and loving this game over the past 20 years is that we have been doing it because we enjoy it. MecTek, MWLL, Free release MW4. We will be playing BT and MW long after PGI and Microsoft leave this game universe. WE want more people to play it, to love it, to learn it.

If PGI would like to continue making money from this community, it would behoove them to structure their economy to be inclusive, not exclusive. No one with padding in their wallet for the current economy is going to be upset with lower prices, they will spend more. Those who currently feel this economy is restrictive to the level of play they would like, would be able to participate in the economy more, and those who are simply out priced at $20 for atlas would be able to join in the economy. Not to mention the clear need to expand accessibility through price drops in paint and cosmetic items.

To demonstrate this concept, if you are selling 50 atlas’ a day at $20, $1000 is the end result. If you adjusted pricing to $15 per atlas, you might sell 75 which would be $1125 at the end of the day. The result is 25 more players enjoy the game at a much more involved level and PGI makes an additional $125.

Mech purchases are not even game changers, they are the same mechs you can buy with cbills, they still need to be ground out.

This brings me to the only parts of the economy which seems to be in line with the term micro-transaction, MC/XP exchange and premium time. XP exchange is affordable and with the structure of the game can prevent feeling the grind when paired with Premium time. Play your favorite mech with premium time (+50%cbills/+50%MC) and transfer 40000xp for 2000mc to help complete those pesky basics on a new chassis line. When you choose this route, it seems to feel a lot more like quarter pumping than playing a TT.

Stop TT Extortion.

[Vassago Rain]

Stone Profit, on 17 February 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

I bought them all. Im also not poor or cheap as so very many who complain about the price. If its too much for you dont buy it and quit whining. Most of us buy things with a much lesser value on a daily basis. I could drink all the money I spent3nt on heros in a bar in o e night and not5 sweat it. Maybe you should spend less time on the computer and more time working if that's the issue. Also, fixed that for you

Throwing money away on one thing doesn't somehow validate throwing money away on something even worse.

[Stone Profit]

Vassago Rain, on 17 February 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

Throwing money away on one thing doesn't somehow validate throwing money away on something even worse.

Ah you misunderstood. The mechs are NOT worse than say coffee or booze. You get to keep them. They are intended to be "forever premium time" and if you cant afford the cost they are not for you. They are for those who can. Like me.

[Grey Ghost]

Zerethon, on 17 February 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

If mechs were cheaper, Cbill costs would have to be cheaper, or people would be able to buy power effectively by purchasing something like AS7K's for 300 MC and then selling them for 7m CB or so.

That's a bit over exaggerated example don't you think? Personally I'd be happy if normal Mechs especially were 50% less than what they are now. Which would make the AS7-K 2,740 MC. I'd prefer buying new Mechs with MC if that were the case, right now I'll just have to wait for something I'm actually interested in to go on sale.

[Kashaar]

Archtype, on 17 February 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

IGP even gouges us on MC to CB conversion through mech purchases. The most advanced and limited tech in the universe and has no salvage or resale value, but remember OP is insisting their economy is completely realistic in its pricing.

Sorry, you're misrepresenting my OP. I didn't even take reference to the BT universe and "realism" in pricing. I explained why in my opinion a high MC cost for mechs is reasonable, because due to the structure of this game, PGI's income generation has to be frontloaded.

And I didn't even state that this is the best or only way to go about this.

Quote

Play your favorite mech with premium time (+50%cbills/+50%MC) and transfer 40000xp for 2000mc to help complete those pesky basics on a new chassis line.

A quick correction: You can't transfer XP from one mech to another. You can only convert Mech XP to GXP.

[Dracol]

IMHO, MWO pricing is just like any other electronics/digital product. You want the new shiny thing right now, then you pay a premium. If you have patience or refuse to pay the high price, give it time for a few more new shiny things to come out and that over priced item will be reduced.

[S1lent0ne]

Premium time is where the long game is. Though it seems silly now, premium time will probably be more important when CW launches and repairs come back.

Cosmetics and mech purchases are the impulse buys but if IGP and PGI are smart for the long term they will be looking to monthly subscription premium time.

[Iscariott]

Stone Profit, on 17 February 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

I bought them all. Im also not poor or cheap as so very many who complain about the price. If its too much for you dont buy it and quit whining. Most of us buy things with a much lesser value on a daily basis. I could drink all the money I spent3nt on heros in a bar in o e night and not5 sweat it. Maybe you should spend less time on the computer and more time working if that's the issue. Also, fixed that for you

The issue here is not that no one can afford the prices they have set hero mechs at. At any price point someone can afford it, the fact that you can is irrelevant. The point people who have a different opinion than you regarding these prices are making is that they want to give PGI money. If the pricing was different more people would be buying, giving PGI more income with which to generate more shiney digital things for people to buy.

Edited by Iscariott, 17 February 2013 - 05:45 PM.

[Daiichidoku]

Archtype, on 17 February 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

The state of the game has people leaving in droves

you invalidated your argument right then and there

yea buddy, they have been leaving in droves since last July, a constant unending stream of dis satisfied MWO players...in fact, i think its only you and me here now, its amazing it is still alive right

anyhow, the best pilots in your clan are also the ones with the least resolve and or patience, it seems

[Khobai]

Quote

Premium time is where the long game is. Though it seems silly now, premium time will probably be more important when CW launches and repairs come back.

I disagree. Premium time is pretty much useless to someone whos mastered all the mechs they want to play and has over 100,000,000 cbills banked.

1) there are no seriously end-game c-bill sinks like spending 1,000,000,000 c-bills for a personal dropship that drops you off at the start of each match
2) there is no way to spend excess XP which doesnt involve MC

So theres just no reason to continue buying premium past a certain point.

[Kashaar]

Khobai, on 17 February 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

I disagree. Premium time is pretty much useless to someone whos mastered all the mechs they want to play and has over 100,000,000 cbills banked.

1) there are no seriously end-game c-bill sinks like spending 1,000,000,000 c-bills for a personal dropship that drops you off at the start of each match
2) there is no way to spend excess XP which doesnt involve MC

So theres just no reason to continue buying premium past a certain point.

This.
I absolutely agree. Those reasons are exactly why I argued in the OP that frontloading the MC economy was a sound decision on PGI's part.

[Zerethon]

Grey Ghost, on 17 February 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

That's a bit over exaggerated example don't you think? Personally I'd be happy if normal Mechs especially were 50% less than what they are now. Which would make the AS7-K 2,740 MC. I'd prefer buying new Mechs with MC if that were the case, right now I'll just have to wait for something I'm actually interested in to go on sale.

Currently the 7k costs over 4kMC, which is what, 20$? it sells for something like 8mil CB. If someone could buy them for half the price they'd be making twice the profit CB wise in a hurry. Granted we have no trading, but it's a bloody good deterrent when you have people that would be more than willing to do that otherwise.

Kashaar, on 17 February 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

This.
I absolutely agree. Those reasons are exactly why I argued in the OP that frontloading the MC economy was a sound decision on PGI's part.

The economy isn't frontloaded unless you don't understand PGI's thinking:

Someone spends CB on a mech and customizes it with CB, over time, they might want to customize it (Camo and most paints cost MC) or add more mechs to their collection (Costs MC) or they might buy a hero mech (Costs quite a bit of MC)

The same holds true for MC purchased mechs. Or XP Converted via MC to speed up the mastering process.

Not exactly a system that's frontloaded in any form of the word.

[QuantumButler]

Everyone look at how wrong OP is and laugh at him.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Kashaar, on 17 February 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Let's talk about business for a change, shall we?

You know how the general consensus seems to be that MC prices for Mechs are way too high? For pure value, I would agree. 6000 MC, the equivalent of about 30$ for a single mech in a game that has dozens of them? Ridiculous.

But consider the typical spending curve of a dedicated MWO player that emerges after some time: At first you buy lots of mechs to try them out, figure out what works for your play style and what doesn't. You get some premium time because you want to reduce the time it takes to grind. If you're impatient and/or rich, you might shell out MC to buy a new mech or two. Or you buy some hero mechs. But after a while, that exploratory phase is over and you're left with a few good mechs that you enjoy, and earning money and xp becomes a lot less important.

That's the point I am at at the moment. I've got a whole bunch of mechs that are fun to play, and I don't have much desire to hurry up and get new ones. I bought a hero mech, and paid for some other variants with MC. I'm now going to let my premium time lapse and not bother getting a renewal, because by now I play the game for the fun of each match, not to get the next better piece of hardware.

What this means is that if PGI end up with a more or less stable user base - and if my experience is at all representative - then the more time elapses, the less real money people are going to spend on stuff. So in drafting up their business plan, they probably came to the conclusion that they are going to have to frontload their income generation. They have to try and generate more income from premium transactions at the start, because the longer someone plays, the less they are likely to spend.

I'm not a business person, so take all of this with a grain of salt. But I don't really see where in their business model there is something for long-term players to consistently spend money on in the, well, in the long term. Hero mechs will only go so far, for the reasons outlined above: Once you've got something you like, you start settling down and get less hungry. Personally, I've never bothered with cockpit items and don't really see why anyone would, though the fact that spectators will see them is a great mechanic in that regard. The only thing that I personally can see myself consistently spending MC on in the long term are paint jobs and other future avenues of mech customization - but they'd have to produce a much higher quantity and quality of content in that area to generate stable income from that.

There are some glaring holes in PGI's Free-to-Play model, though. For example, I can't quite understand the logic behind not allowing item purchases with MC - weapons, items, upgrades, modules. I'm honestly a little dumbfounded that they don't have that in the game yet. Imagine how much more MC would be spent if you could for example purchase XL Engines with them.

So, my conclusion from this is that the high MC prices of mechs, paintjobs, etc. aren't an indicator of money-grabbing greed, but of a thought through business plan meant to ensure the game's long-term commercial viability, something that I think we can all get behind. I'd love to keep playing this game for a long while!

I'm not sure why they don't allow purchasing of loadout items etc. with MC. But I'm willing to concede that this might not be because of an oversight, but maybe because they are struggling with the morality of milking players' bank accounts. In any case, I like PGI a lot more now.

So here's a message to the devs: Allowing loadout items/upgrades/modules to be purchased with MC does not equal "pay to win". It only does if you have "premium" items that can only be purchased with MC, which is definitely something you should at all cost avoid introducing. But other than that, if "premium" means "convenience", then allowing me to pay for that XL360 Engine with a microtransaction (and I really do mean micro - from 20c to 2$ at most) would make a great addition to the existing free-to-play model.

Thank you for your attention.

TL;DR version:
High MC prices for Hero Mechs and other Premium content are a symptom of a frontloading business model. The longer you play, the less you spend - so PGI have to coax you into paying while you're still hot for new stuff.

My personal thoughts are that
1. Hero mechs are more expensive because they should be somewhat uncommon/rare on the battlefield. Makes them special and stand out more if there aren't a lot of them.

2. PGI keeps throwing sales. Apparently, these have been very successful. So normal price on something might be $30, but when put on 50% sale, they sell a ton and make a lot of money, even though $15 still seems high if you think that way. I've heard that clothing stores do this. They mark up their prices so when they have those 40-50-60-70% off sales, they don't really loose money.