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Criticals (And Crit Seeking Weapons) Need A Revamp


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Poll: Criticals (26 member(s) have cast votes)

Should Engines be able to be Critted?

  1. Yes. (21 votes [80.77%])

    Percentage of vote: 80.77%

  2. No. (5 votes [19.23%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.23%

Should criticals be possible through armor?

  1. Yes. (6 votes [23.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.08%

  2. No. (20 votes [76.92%])

    Percentage of vote: 76.92%

Should crit seeking not be the primary purpose of a weapon?

  1. Yes. (19 votes [73.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 73.08%

  2. No. (7 votes [26.92%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.92%

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#1 ExtremeA79

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 07:39 AM

First off, no weapon should be used JUST for crit seeking. (I'm looking at you, machine gun)
Crit seeking should be the secondary purpose of a weapon, not the primary, although there should be weapons that have higher crit % than others.

Now to critical hits.
First off, there is not much incentive for weapons that have a higher critical % like a machine gun as the only thing you can damage are heatsinks and weapons.
Gyro has no effect in mechs in this game so I understand that being unable to be critted, but engines have a purpose. They power your mech, and if they are destroyed, you die. Engines should be able to be critted. I was thinking about this for a while and you know in Mechwarrior Tactics engines have like 3 bars of health? Well If the engine gets critted once or reachs a certain health % there should be a penalty. Such as engines losing efficiency and you would go slower. Then you would turn slower. When it loses all its health you die.
Engines should be able to be destroyed by criticals and go through stages of penalties depending on its health/number of times it has been critted. There are alot of things that can be done to engines.

Now comes a controversial topic. Crit seeking through armor.
I think most people would be opposed to this but I think it is something that should be implemented. Critical % should be lower through armor than if it is all stripped and you are targeting internals.

Edited by Darren Tyler, 16 June 2013 - 07:44 AM.


#2 armyof1

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 07:52 AM

Through armor crit is awful. You start the match, trade a shot with an opponent after a minute, your main weapon got an through armor crit and you're going to be badly equipped for the rest of the match because you were unlucky. Better luck next time!

#3 skullman86

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 08:01 AM

1. Really hard to say if they can be added right now given the game's balance, but I would like to see engine (and other internal) criticals in the future

2. Again, balance doesn't really allow for this at the moment, however, I think I would still be against this even if the game was balanced

3. I thought it would be a good idea when they did it for mgs, but it really wasn't. The primary function of every weapon should be to deal damage (unless it's intended to be a non lethal support weapon), and if the weapon is on the weaker side of the spectrum, then I'm fine with it getting additional bonuses

Edited by skullman86, 16 June 2013 - 08:02 AM.


#4 El Bandito

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 08:14 AM

View PostDarren Tyler, on 16 June 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

First off, no weapon should be used JUST for crit seeking. (I'm looking at you, machine gun) Crit seeking should be the secondary purpose of a weapon, not the primary, although there should be weapons that have higher crit % than others. Now to critical hits. First off, there is not much incentive for weapons that have a higher critical % like a machine gun as the only thing you can damage are heatsinks and weapons. Gyro has no effect in mechs in this game so I understand that being unable to be critted, but engines have a purpose. They power your mech, and if they are destroyed, you die. Engines should be able to be critted. I was thinking about this for a while and you know in Mechwarrior Tactics engines have like 3 bars of health? Well If the engine gets critted once or reachs a certain health % there should be a penalty. Such as engines losing efficiency and you would go slower. Then you would turn slower. When it loses all its health you die. Engines should be able to be destroyed by criticals and go through stages of penalties depending on its health/number of times it has been critted. There are alot of things that can be done to engines. Now comes a controversial topic. Crit seeking through armor. I think most people would be opposed to this but I think it is something that should be implemented. Critical % should be lower through armor than if it is all stripped and you are targeting internals.


I have read all of the pre-Dark Age novels but there was not even single mention of mech engine destroyed by Machine guns. Just too short range and too small damage I guess.

Can MG bullets even seriously damage Tungsten carbide material, which the really thick Standard Engine shielding is made of? Perhaps it can damage the Crystalline polymer material of an XL engine shielding better.

Another way to buff Std engine. :)

Edited by El Bandito, 16 June 2013 - 08:22 AM.


#5 ExtremeA79

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 08:19 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 16 June 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:


I have read all of the pre-Dark Age novels but there was not even single mention of mech engine destroyed by Machine guns. Just too short range and too small damage I guess.


I never said that machine guns should crit engines to deaht, though that is pretty cool. I think all weapons main purpose is to deal damage, with other things being second. The exception is the flamer, which its main purpose is to overheat mechs with damage second. Machine guns should have 2 dps and MAYBE a good crit chance but it should not be the primary purpose.

Oh BTW Machine guns are actually autocannons. They are basically AC/1's.
High explosive 11 pound round 20 mm in size, weapon of death. And usually it is multi barrel.

#6 El Bandito

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 08:24 AM

View PostDarren Tyler, on 16 June 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:


I never said that machine guns should crit engines to deaht, though that is pretty cool. I think all weapons main purpose is to deal damage, with other things being second. The exception is the flamer, which its main purpose is to overheat mechs with damage second. Machine guns should have 2 dps and MAYBE a good crit chance but it should not be the primary purpose.

Oh BTW Machine guns are actually autocannons. They are basically AC/1's.
High explosive 11 pound round 20 mm in size, weapon of death. And usually it is multi barrel.


2 DPS is frankly, too much with current weight and ammo count. 1.2 DPS is the highest it should go. Otherwise, people will be piloting Hexa-MG Jager-DD in droves.

#7 Zerberus

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 08:38 AM

View PostDarren Tyler, on 16 June 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Oh BTW Machine guns are actually autocannons. They are basically AC/1's.
High explosive 11 pound round 20 mm in size, weapon of death. And usually it is multi barrel.


Actually if we want to get **** about it, all autocannons are machine guns, but not all machine guns are autocannons. An autocannon is, by definition, a (usually large, calibers of 20mm+) machine gun that fires armor piercing or explosive shells ONLY.

And the round weighs ONE pound, not 11. 2000 rounds / ton, and one (short) ton = 2000 pounds... 2000 divided by 2000 is One, not eleven. Even if we take the long ton (~2500 pounds), the weight only goes up 25% to 1 pound 4 ounces. :)

The assumption of being 20mm + is however accurate, as a typical 20mm shell weighs pretty exactly one pound, wheras a .50 BMG (12.5mm) weighs between 6 and 8 ounces.

Edited by Zerberus, 16 June 2013 - 08:49 AM.


#8 Levi Porphyrogenitus

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 09:02 AM

Through-armor critical hits have no place in MWO. They only work on TT since every hit is to a random location and through-armor critical hits are a way to make the game a little bit faster and a little bit riskier for high-armor builds. Those aren't necessary for MWO, and the downsides to through-armor criticals are numerous and potent enough to make it a really bad idea.

Crit-seeking should not be a primary weapon role, but it is a valid secondary one. The progressive MG damage buffs are a sign that PGI seems to be coming around to agreeing with this.

Engines should be able to be critically hit. This would make XLs both a bit more dangerous (more critical slots makes them more vulnerable) and a bit more worth the risk (since standard engines suddenly gain a weakness as well).

Engine crits should reduce max speed by a % and should increase your heat output. Three engine crits should be a kill (which is why XL side torso destruction is a kill).

#9 ExtremeA79

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 09:08 AM

View PostZerberus, on 16 June 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:


Actually if we want to get **** about it, all autocannons are machine guns, but not all machine guns are autocannons. An autocannon is, by definition, a (usually large, calibers of 20mm+) machine gun that fires armor piercing or explosive shells ONLY.

And the round weighs ONE pound, not 11. 2000 rounds / ton, and one (short) ton = 2000 pounds... 2000 divided by 2000 is One, not eleven. Even if we take the long ton (~2500 pounds), the weight only goes up 25% to 1 pound 4 ounces. :)

The assumption of being 20mm + is however accurate, as a typical 20mm shell weighs pretty exactly one pound, wheras a .50 BMG (12.5mm) weighs between 6 and 8 ounces.


Lore wise ammunition does not come in 1000 rounds. Not even close. It comes in 200.

If there were a buff to MG damage I think it would be best to put MG ammunition to canon levels, as with all other ballistic weapons in this game.
But you are right about modern 20mm being around a pound, I have seen 20 mm rifles and the rounds they use and they are BIG.

#10 Zerberus

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 09:36 AM

View PostDarren Tyler, on 16 June 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:


Lore wise ammunition does not come in 1000 rounds. Not even close. It comes in 200.


If you havent noticed, lore means nothing but "here`s an idea" in MWO :)

We have, at present, 2000 shells /ton of MG ammo.

You cannot rationally argue for something to be implemented in game, changing existing game mechanics, while simultaneously completely ignoring those mechanics. :ph34r:

Quote

But you are right about modern 20mm being around a pound, I have seen 20 mm rifles and the rounds they use and they are BIG.

With all due respect, I know I`m right. I`m qualifiied in the use of over 150 different ballistic and rocket propelled weapons systems, with calibers from .22lr all the way up to 220mm, from multiple different countries of origin, with an equally diverse range of projectiles. The military was good to me in that respect, for example not many americans (or westerners at all, for that matter) know how to use one of these:
http://warfare.be/db...29-220-mm-mlrs/
:wub:

Edited by Zerberus, 16 June 2013 - 09:39 AM.


#11 ExtremeA79

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 09:40 AM

View PostZerberus, on 16 June 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:


If you havent noticed, lore means nothing but "here`s an idea" in MWO :)

We have, at present, 2000 shells /ton of MG ammo.

You cannot rationally argue for something to be implemented in game, changing existing game mechanics, while simultaneously completely ignoring those mechanics. :ph34r:


With all due respect, I know I`m right. I`m qualifiied in the use of over 150 different ballistic and rocket propelled weapons systems, with calibers from .22lr all the way up to 220mm, from multiple different countries of origin, with an equally diverse range of projectiles. The military was good to me in that respect, not many americans (or westerners at all, for that matter) know how to use one of these:
http://warfare.be/db...29-220-mm-mlrs/
:wub:



Most of the weapons in the game, their values, ammo per ton, are canon.
Most of them worked out well.

I just noticed but alot of veterans play this game.

#12 Sephlock

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 09:43 AM

View Postarmyof1, on 16 June 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

Through armor crit is awful. You start the match, trade a shot with an opponent after a minute, your main weapon got an through armor crit and you're going to be badly equipped for the rest of the match because you were unlucky. Better luck next time!

How is that worse than starting the match, trading a shot with an opponent after a minute, and disintegrating due to his 6x PPC alpha strike melting your face?

#13 Zerberus

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 09:44 AM

View PostDarren Tyler, on 16 June 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

I just noticed but alot of veterans play this game.


Yeah, becasue they didn`t give us the stompy robots they promised in the service. So now, like crack addicts, we do whatever we can to get our "Boom! Kapowie! Kersphlatter" fix :) :ph34r:

#14 Fate 6

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 10:17 AM

Good poll. I'm glad to see I agree with most people on all three points, too. Making weapons only about critting is the reason the MG is in the position it's in right now. We need weapons to damage armor, and if they do damage armor decently then they don't need to crit through it. However, there's not much to crit when you get through CT armor right now. Maybe some CT weapons or a Beagle, but with the current crit system we might as well be able to crit the engine since it isn't a 1-crit kill with something like a MG.

View PostSephlock, on 16 June 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

How is that worse than starting the match, trading a shot with an opponent after a minute, and disintegrating due to his 6x PPC alpha strike melting your face?

At least there is no luck in getting killed by a 6xPPC mech. It's all "skill", by whatever you define skill in this case. Random factors suck in any game. I use LoL as an example too much, but as far as I know there are only 2 random mechanics left in the entire game - critting (which you can only get through items and runes now) and Sion's passive (and the champion needs a rework anyway)

#15 Ningyo

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 10:30 AM

No most ammo/ton are not canon (and for good reason) they raised armor by double. they raised ammo per ton by 50%
(armor x 2 + internal /2 = 1.5 x durability) = (ammo +50% = 1.5 x ammo)

Ammo in this game for machine guns is 2000/ton, ammo in TT is 200/ton (in this game it uses 10 rounds per second and when people list its damage they tend to give it by 10 rounds groupings)

Also the real problem with crit seeking weapons in this game is they have such low damage to begin with. They gave all weapons a health (most are 10) So if you crit once with a PPC something is destroyed, If you crit 10 times with a 1 dmg weapon, 1 damage is applied 10 times to random components and nothing breaks. This is also one more reason why 10 damage is way better than 9 in this game.

#16 Stoicblitzer

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 10:35 AM

critting engines with how weak mechs are right now is not a good idea imo. imagine dying before losing your CT or side torso with XL. I think engines are currently involved in crit rolls which means any items loaded in the same component have less of a chance of being damaged by crits. Engines have infinite HP though. Crits through armor? no way, José.

weapons that only seek crits? meh.

Edited by Stoicblitzer, 16 June 2013 - 10:36 AM.


#17 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 11:27 AM

Through Armor Crits? I'd rather avoid them. The Crit system is too random and lacks any meaningful player involvement other than "shoot the enemy".

Weapons as "Crit-Seekers". Alone for the purely random nature of critical hits, I'd avoid that.

Should more internal gear be crittable? Maybe.

Personally, I would ditch most of the randomness in critical hits.

Split each hit location's internals structure points by the number of crit slots. Whenever a location takes this much damage, there is a 50 % chance for a crit to occur. It doesn't matter how this damage was achieved - a 1 second laser beam with multiple pulses, a stream of MG bullets, or a mighty AC/20 hit. THe only thing that matters is that the location's structure points have been.
When a critical hit occurs, the largest item is hit first. The next crit will hit the next largest item and so on, until we start at the beginning. If items are equally large, the higher placed item (as seen in the mech lab) is hit first.
Whenever a item is hit, it gets one damage point. If it has taken a number of damage points equal to its crit slot number +1 or more, it is crippled. If it has at least one damage point, it acts as damaged.

Engine States:
Damaged: The engine produces 0.5 heat per second.
Crippled Engine: THe engine produces 1 heat per second.

Arm or Hand Actuator:
Crippled: The arm loses 20 % movement range and speed if the mech has 4 actuators (shoulder, upper, lower, hand), 25 % if it has 3 (shoulder, upper, lower) or 2 (shoulder, upper).

Leg Actuator:
20 % movement speed reduction.

Gyro:
Damaged: 25 % torso speed and twist range reduction.
Crippled: 50 % torsos spend and twist range reduction.

Weapon:
Damaged: The weapon's cooldown time is doubled. Special: A Gauss RIfle has a 33 % chance to explode when damaged.
Crippled: The weapon is destroyed and non-functional. Special: A Gauss Rifle has a 66 % chance to epxlode when damaged.

Ammo:
Crippled: Ammo stored is lost, 10 % explosion chance. (or 50 %, if we lower the explosion damage to something like 10-20 per bin.)

Heat Sink:
Damaged (DHS only): dissipates only half the usual amount of heat.
Crippled: Dissipates no more heat. Optional for DHS only. 50 % chance to deal 10 damage over 10 seconds (corrosive coolant)

ECM:
Damaged: 50 % chance to be destroyed. If not destroyed, functions only at half range.
Crippled: Destroyed and nonfunctional.

BAP:
Damaged: Bonuses lowered by 50 %.
Crippled. Destroyed and nonfunctional.

Command Console:
Damaged: One random PGI Dev is forced to work on the design for the use of the command console for 4 hours.
Destroyed: The whole PGI dev team is forced to work on the deisgn for the use of the command console for 4 hours.

View PostSephlock, on 16 June 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

How is that worse than starting the match, trading a shot with an opponent after a minute, and disintegrating due to his 6x PPC alpha strike melting your face?

One problem at a time.

#18 armyof1

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 12:46 PM

View PostSephlock, on 16 June 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

How is that worse than starting the match, trading a shot with an opponent after a minute, and disintegrating due to his 6x PPC alpha strike melting your face?


Since most equipment has 10hp, you'd need a single 10 damage hit with through armor critical to destroy that equipment. Firing 6 PPC would at least build up some massive heat, and will require time to cool down, one PPC not so much. Besides you know about the heat penalties on top of it coming real soon, so the cost will be even higher than 6 times. And don't get me started on Gauss, one AC5 round would blow it up with through armor critical, how fun would that be every now and then.

Edited by armyof1, 16 June 2013 - 12:51 PM.






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