8 replies to this topic

[Garfuncle]

I've found that on top of the already annoying terrain that can get you stuck in numerious places, that starting River City on the side in the top area, the place with the dropship-like craft and fortified walls, you are at an extreme disadvantage.

Not only to do you start in a place that is highly exposed, but also it cannot be reached quickly after you leave it. Once you leave the walled platform to the lower city, the city across the river, or in the river, you only really have one option to get back up near the suspension bridge. Making it nearly impossible to stop a fast-cap by lights with jump jets if you have already left it.

Not only that, but the terrain you leave your base for is highly unfavorable as well. You have to march towards the enemy position with no sight-lines, and no oppurtunity to turn back to base.

The other side, on the other hand, has the advantage of starting at a lower position, the ability to look right at the enemy's base/lanes, and can always turn back and easily get to their base to defend.

TLDR: If you start in the exposed/walled up dropship area of river city, you're gonna have a bad time.

Edited by Garfuncle, 17 February 2013 - 08:21 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

that's only true if you're going for a base defense scenario.

the advantages on that spawn are:

highground covers you, the large ship and panels cover you.
you only need to follow the bridge to the best spot in the map, while the other team has to go uphill.
upper city is where you want to be most of the time

you cannot really see their lanes from where you spawn like you said.
as they're in high ground you cannot see except for when they pop out of cover

[Haitchpeasauce]

If you're dropping with PUGs, the top-side is a disadvantage. The options for the opening move are more numerous and less clean-cut from up there. I've seen the team scatter in all directions or just sit there for a long time. For the lower-side, it's either G-line or 3-line, and less commonly the water.

In an organised group, this becomes less of a problem.

[p00k]

top spawn is actually better. just defend it. it's actually not very exposed at all. long range mechs can hold enemies in upper city pretty easily, and the limited entrances provide natural chokepoints provided you know how to use them. lower city is a lot harder to defend, but even then there are really two main entrances. just dont have your brawlers run to lower city while long range mechs stay up on base to "snipe", there's too much cover that your brawlers will likely get slaughtered and then snipers get rushed

bottom spawn for some reason every pug wants to go to upper city, despite how easy it is to be pummeled there if the enemy is willing to defend. water at least gives you cover behind the citadel early on, then you have building cover all the way to the enemy base and 2 paths up

only problem with upper city is whenever i end up on the upper city team, half the time the pugs decide they want to get as far away from any teammate as possible. a few run to upper city, a few run to lower city, and then everyone dies

[PacifistWarrior]

Small maps mean move quickly. One thing about PUGs, if someone moves immediately with purpose and direction, it's a good bet that at least some. if not most, of the team will follow you.

p00k, on 17 February 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

top spawn is actually better. just defend it. it's actually not very exposed at all.

True, but that strategy can very easily turn into a trap. Staying in the base gives the enemy team the rest of the map to maneuver, and the OP was right in saying it is exposed. There is lots of cover within the base, but it's also very easy to track the enemy team when they are on high ground and isolate any mechs that try to sortie mid to late game.

Every time I've seen the base defense scenario, it either goes badly for the defenders, or degrades into a long range pop-tart style sniper / LRM match that goes either way depending on the aiming skill or luck of each team.

[p00k]

PacifistWarrior, on 17 February 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:

There is lots of cover within the base, but it's also very easy to track the enemy team when they are on high ground and isolate any mechs that try to sortie mid to late game.

any mech that runs off by himself gets killed easily, regardless of which map he's on, which side he's on, what part of the map he's on, etc. no difference there

PacifistWarrior, on 17 February 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:

Every time I've seen the base defense scenario, it either goes badly for the defenders, or degrades into a long range pop-tart style sniper / LRM match that goes either way depending on the aiming skill or luck of each team.

that's because the defenders usually rush off prematurely, get isolated, and get murdered. you'll usually have a few ***** lrm boats sitting on base lobbing lrm's into the sides of buildings, while a now isolated party of brawlers are easily picked off when they're alone. commit to the defense and you have a massive terrain advantage over the other team

[Kommisar]

For PUG matches, this map is the worst in the line up on Assault mode and is the main reason I play Conquest the vast majority of the time.

I would pull it from the Assault map line up where it up to me. Maybe keep it for 8man and the 16 people that play it.

The problem is that high ground does not offer an advantage; but a disadvantage. Everyone can turn on heat vision and see you moving around up there. Or they can watch you move down. This isn't infantry combat, so throw out the tactical axiom of "Take the High Ground". Yes, you can pop out and back into cover. Sniper trap 101. The opposing sniper knows where you will pop out and you don't know exactly where he will.

You can fall back against the back of the ridge and away from the edges of the platform. In doing so you have completely surrendered the tactical initiative to the enemy. Worse, they know where you are and you don't know where they are unless you are keeping a good scout out that stays alive.

Your best bet is to push out as one group (hard to coordinate in PUG; takes luck) and go lower or upper.

River is a death trap! Never go in the river unless you are cleaning up the last 2 or 3 mechs left and you have a big advantage.

Upper is the best bet. It puts in a position to strike at their main and get a cap rush and allows you to see more of the map. But, you are still high up, meaning the enemy generally knows you moved up there and, if someone is smart, in what numbers. And you can not dally up there, either. Some fast mech is bum-rushing your base. So, you have to rush down and into the harbor and hope that you can hit any force you encounter hard enough to get through.

Most of the time, this all ends in the counter-clockwise circle of cap; with a few shots traded on the guys that wandered off or trying to buy time for their side.

Need more proof that the terrain up there is terrible. Just look how quickly everyone abandons that cap zone in conquest.

[PacifistWarrior]

Actually p00k, it seems that the scenario you're describing happened way more often before they made the changes to the dropship side of the map and the defenders always had the advantage.

You make a very valid point with the good defense strategy, but in PUGs you almost never have a team with that kind of coordination (I mean about staying in the base). Even if someone has the courage to step up and try to take command, most people don't listen.

THIS IS JUST PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, but I've also rarely seen an "attacking side" team that has the courage and coordination to storm the base and make a real fight of it. Hence the sniper / LRM war if the high ground team doesn't move out to meet them in the upper city / park.

I guess, though, if you are in a sniper mech and WANT a snipe war, the high base is a great place to be.....

edit: p00k just killed me in a match so I withdraw my arguments.

Edited by PacifistWarrior, 21 February 2013 - 08:22 PM.

[Vincent Lynch]

if you have a few LRMboats, the top side base is an advantage actually.