8 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

Here's an idea - to encourage people to mix weapon types, give weapons small debuffs that increase other weapon's advantage.

Here's a "Rock Paper Scissors" Model:

• Lasers:
  
  For each point of laser damage you take on a hit location, you suffer a 2 second debuff that increases all damage taken by ballistic weapons by 2.5 %. This debuff stacks, up to a maximum of 15 %.
  Rationale*: Laser weapons "soften" up armour, allowing fast moving projectiles to penetrate it better.
  
• Ballistic Weapons:
  
  For each point of ballistic damage you take on a hit location, you suffer a 2 second debuff that increases all damage taken by missile weapons by 2.5 %. This debuff stacks, up to a maximum of 15 %.
  Rationale: Ballistic weapons create deformations in the armour and weak spots, making them more suspectible to armour piercing explosives.
  
• Missile Weapons:
  
  For each point of missile damage you take on a hit location, you suffer a 2 second debuff that increases all damage taken by laser weapons by 2.5 %. This debuff stacks, up to a maxium of 15 %.
  Rationale: Missile weapons explosives tend to ncrease the heat levels on the armour they inficted - not enough to soften them up for ballistics, but enough to make the work of lasers somewhat easier.

The Odd Men Out:

• PPCs disrupt ECM functioning and locks.
  
• Flamers: Flamers weaken the ammo in general, causing a 2 second debuff that increases all damage taken by a location by 1 % from ballistics, missiles and lasers. This debuff stacks, up to a maximum of 10 %. Flamers do not deal extra damage from other weapon type debuffs or their own, but lasers, missiles and ballistic debuffs increase the heat they inflict (Up to a maximum bonus of 25 %).

(This means that by coming Flamers and some other weapon type, you generate up to 25 % more damage.)

Drawback:
Some mechs can only use one weapon type. (Some Catapult, Hunchback, Spider, Jenner and Awesome variants). These mechs must gain something to compensate. Say, a general 15 % damage reduction.



* ) They don't have to be perfectly reasonable. Just a thin veneer of explanation to have something in-game world to explain them. It's not like Battletech is realistic.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 19 February 2013 - 09:05 AM.

[Mazgazine1]

This would just cause problems in its current state. It needs to be more "rock paper scissor", right now its, SRM/LRM boats win.

Unless that's a typo?

[Syllogy]

The biggest problem in trying to diverisfy builds is that some variants are ONLY capable of boating.

Examples; Catapult A1, Hunchback 4P, Cataphract 4X, Cataphract 1X, Cataphract 3D, Raven 2X, Cicada 2A, Cicada 2B..

That's only a partial list. Most of these mechs only support one or two types of Hardpoints. Your proposed changes would gimp them completely.

There should not be a penalty for using these mechs, they are legit builds with their own drawbacks.

Energy Weapons create major heat problems, Ballistics have to focus on weight and ammunition, and SRM Cats can be defeated outside of 200m with ease, and LRM Boats have to worry about enemy mechs closing the distance.

This is called Balance.

Every type of boat can be beaten, you might have to change your tactics to do so, but that's part of learning how to be an effective pilot.

Edited by Syllogy, 19 February 2013 - 06:20 AM.

[sycocys]

In my experience a balanced build is usually far more effective than a boated build when you are actually playing as a team. If everyone goes on to doing their own thing the boats are usually going to end up rocking everyone's world because they will be able to get themselves into their ideal position.

It's much harder for boated builds to be effective in a team situation - the only odd one out is when you have 4 well skilled boats working in unison but they still are going to run into problems when facing a more balanced team of 4 that can engage at any of their ranges together.

Edited by sycocys, 19 February 2013 - 08:37 AM.

[focuspark]

... um NO. Sorry, not spending the time to pose a longer counter argument. No, this is a terrible idea. Boating is the only option for a lot of mechs and it's just a form of optimization. If you don't understand optimization or refuse to participate, I'm sorry for you.

[MustrumRidcully]

Mazgazine1, on 19 February 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

This would just cause problems in its current state. It needs to be more "rock paper scissor", right now its, SRM/LRM boats win.

Unless that's a typo?

Yes, it was.

And to clarify something -I am not particularly worried by boats.
There is primarily one concern I have: Convergence is a mechanic that benefits people using weapon loadouts where all weapons can fire together. If you mix ballistics with lasers, you have to shoot ehse weapons seperately,leading to you spreading the damage most likely, and definitely requiring more attention from you, since you have to aim twice (in different manners even).

But that's a minor thing. What I want to encourage is some diversity and a reason why so many stock mechs are not boats. The true reason of course - whoever designed them didn't optimize them. But creating a buff system like this, there will be also a mechanical reason why you might want to do it.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 19 February 2013 - 09:08 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Syllogy, on 19 February 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

The biggest problem in trying to diverisfy builds is that some variants are ONLY capable of boating.

Examples; Catapult A1, Hunchback 4P, Cataphract 4X, Cataphract 1X, Cataphract 3D, Raven 2X, Cicada 2A, Cicada 2B..

Drawback:
Some mechs can only use one weapon type. (Some Catapult, Hunchback, Spider, Jenner and Awesome variants). These mechs must gain something to compensate. Say, a general 15 % damage reduction.


We already have this problem right now, even though for very different reasons. A mech like the Awesome 8Q would be far better if it was allowed to mix some ballistics or missiles into its weapon loadut. But as it is, it's forced to boat energy weapons, and most energy weapons that make sense to boat on a moving barn door like the Awesome he can't carry enough of to really have a "working" mech that doesn'T overheat every 8 seconds.

[Deathlike]

The way to reduce alpha boating under certain circumstances is to introduce a penalty of some sort by increasing the collective heat generated by weapons (4 lasers/srms of some sort or more) and/or reducing the damage output or accuracy of other weapons (essentially, nerfing the dual AC20 catapult).

The system will still allow you to damage the targets in full, if you split the alphas into smaller bunches...

Edited by Deathlike, 19 February 2013 - 09:15 AM.

[sycocys]

If there were ever to be a debuff type situation for boating what I'd much prefer to see is something that worked across all builds equally.

Alpha/group shots that include 3+ weapons or 2+ in the same location cause x amount of extra heat. This is a reasonably sound concept and can be adjusted incrementally for additional weapons, fire time between shots from a location, weapon types and so forth.

Then overheating causes damage to heat sinks instead of critical internals, until heat sinks outside of the main 10 engine sinks are destroyed. You could dig deeper into the inside engine ones that could cause some damage to the engines function if you wanted to be really technical about it and make mechs slightly more survivable in these builds.

It would make boats play more heat efficiently, well everyone to but especially alpha/stacked location boats, if they don't they run the risk of first dropping their ability to attack then destroying their weapons locations for the enemy. Plus overheating should I think destroy heat sinks before critical parts anyhow as is currently done, it would make the override somewhat useful as a survival tactic.