18 replies to this topic

[Sarlac]

That left arm though... the only possible thing you could do with it is throw it forward to soak up damage. If you think about it, that left arm doesn't have any components in it dedicated to firing weapons. It's just a hunk of metal, except for maybe servo motors to move those fingers? I don't know. But basically, it SHOULD be used as a shield. It even LOOKS like a shield. Therefore, I suggest that the centurion gets some of its armor relocated more into the direction of that left arm--that or maybe make the "shield" bigger.

[Hopdevil]

Why couldn't they give more armor on the arm? This would make it more useful for skilled players.

Edited by Hopdevil, 04 March 2013 - 07:17 AM.

[Adridos]

No.

And here's why not to be an unconstructive person:

First, the arm looks like a shield, because FD has watched too many Gundams when he was creating it. If you look at the legs and everything, it becomes really obvious. Now, for Gundams, a shield is fine, they have swords, after all. However, here we take thingsa bit more seriously and the centurion was never ever stated to have a shield.... not a single time.

This is lore explanation on why it shouldn't. Now let's move to RL one, shall we?

Speaking of RL, adding a shield like that is stupid, because no mech ever was created to take damage. They are too expensive and too hard to even make to create one that is meant to actually take damage... it's stupid and twice so on a design that is intended as a line unit. Besides, when you look at the thickness of the "shield", it is quite thin and certainly can't provide more protection than the thick plates of armor used on the gun arm.

Lastly, we come to the in-game explanation.

Firstly, the Centurion is a very capable platform. It certainly doesn't need any buffs or nerfs right now. Then, we come to the armor problem. That is, how do you make it enough to actually have a purpose, without overdoing it? We could up the arm armor to 60 ton standard (10 tons more) and it would still be quite more of the same, since we're talking about the Dragon's arm armor value and the gun arm of that is a really easy target. Then we go even further to the Catapult's armor and that is, frankly, too sturdy for a Centurion. I mean, the arm would actually have almost as much armor, as the CT. Given the fact who a Centurion is going to face, it would be a death sentence for any medium to face it, as it is faster, better armed and if using the arm, even a lot more armoured. So it would screw the madium mech balance.

Edited by Adridos, 04 March 2013 - 08:13 AM.

[Roland]

I use that arm as a shield.

It has plenty of armor.. indeed, I rarely actually run it with full armor even as it stands today.

[Roughneck45]

Its already a shield.

It does not need a buff to function better in the role it already does well.

[The Government]

Adridos, on 04 March 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

First, the arm looks like a shield, because FD has watched too many Gundams when he was creating it. If you look at the legs and everything, it becomes really obvious. Now, for Gundams, a shield is fine, they have swords, after all. However, here we take thingsa bit more seriously and the centurion was never ever stated to have a shield.... not a single time.

Firstly, the Centurion is a very capable platform. It certainly doesn't need any buffs or nerfs right now.

On that first count, I disagree. Shields are a very effective and serious way of dealing with any threat.
After all, just look at Riot Police and Bomb Disposal agents.

On the second count, I agree completely. The Centurion is getting along just fine.

[Adridos]

The Government, on 04 March 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

On that first count, I disagree. Shields are a very effective and serious way of dealing with any threat.
After all, just look at Riot Police and Bomb Disposal agents.

We're talking about shields that protect the whole size of the body, not something that could be classyfied as a half of a bracer.

[Stringburka]

Adridos, on 04 March 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

We're talking about shields that protect the whole size of the body, not something that could be classyfied as a half of a bracer.

But people effectively use it to shield themselves already, so apparently it works ;D
EDIT2: And on the whole gundam thing and it not making sense because MWO doesn't have melee, it's still based on BT which has melee, so from a canon perspective it does make sense to have shields against melee attacks.

Though that isn't unique to the centurion, of course. Most cicada and stalker arms are that way, a few spider arms, as are the 2x raven left arm and (I think?) a few commando and jenner arms.

On style, I think the MWO Centurion looks kinda like the Battlestar Galactica Reimagined centurion, especially in how they move.

EDIT: Just realized something. In BT and from a lore perspective, an empty arm is still useful for punching stuff and/or simply using it as we normally use hands, to pick stuff up etc. I'm not a cent pilot so I don't know what variants have what, but this image shows a centurion with one cannon arm and the empty arm having an actual hand (as well as a shield).

Edited by Stringburka, 04 March 2013 - 10:19 AM.

[Hopdevil]

Ok let's go back to lore. In the BT universe the Centurion would be able to use that arm and hand to damage other mechs. Not to mention being able to dodge and go prone. One idea that might work is to allow the ability to shift armor from other parts of the mech to the arms. It's just armor plate.

[HammerSwarm]

Adridos, on 04 March 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

No.

I love Mr BattleTech elite. Thanks for coming. You should read more on the Sarna before replying. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Trebuchet let me quote more about this for you, "For additional protection, this Trebuchet carries Modular Armor on the front of each torso and a Small Shield on the left arm." That is a cannon mech as far as I know being described in the http://www.sarna.net...dout:_Periphery

Further if you want to get into apocryphal sources http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Large_Shield this is a slightly less canon large shield and rules for running with a large shield. So that pretty much cuts through the BS thread dump you took on this guys idea.

That said: If a shield were to be introduced I think it would have to be introduced for all mechs with suitable arms. I am for this idea because it would add another layer to the game that would force people to consider torso position and load outs more carefully.

A constructive way to handle this:
The shield would be as an upgrade similar to endo steel or ferro fiberous. It would mount on one arm or the other, and be on the outside of said arm. perpendicular to the front side hit box.
Weight: 10% of mech's maximum weight.
Movement Penalties: Decreases speed by 10% and torso twist speed by 20%.
Armor: 40% of the shield's weight.

For a centurion: 5 tons, 2 tons of armor, 64 points of armor additional on the left arm.
For an Atlas: 10 tons, 4 tons of armor, 128 points of armor additional on the left arm.

Shield functionality:
Active parry(bind it to a button like ecm) moves the shield arm in front of the body allowing you to charge forward while shooting only with your opposite arm and opposite side torso. This would cover about 2/3 of the body of a mech with a strong shield from frontal attacks. More a centurion this would be amazing, but for a trebuchet less so. Weapons interfeared with by the shield should be disabled.

Passive parry puts the arm back at the centurions side letting the mech function normally while protecting only what the shield covers from that angle.

The shield may be bound to a weapons key and be dropped from the mech at any time. It may not be picked back up. All movement penalties associated with the shield end once the shield is dropped as it no longer hampers the mech. If the shield's armor points are used up it automatically is dropped and falls away from the mech.

Mechs that could carry shields:
Atlas (either arm)
Awesome (Left Arm)
Cataphract (Left Arm)
Dragon (Left Arm)
Trebuchet (Left Arm)
Hunchback (Either, Probably Left)
Centurion (Left Arm)
Commando (Either)
Spider (Either)

You know if you wanted a shield it could work like this and not horribly unbalance the game. Adding it for only the centurion would be silly though

Edited by HammerSwarm, 04 March 2013 - 10:50 AM.

[armchairyoda]

HammerSwarm, on 04 March 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

I love Mr BattleTech elite. Thanks for coming. You should read more on the Sarna before replying...

And mebbe you should've read the rest of his post.

I'm going to cite my experience as far as TT/canon shields went: the people I played with ignored them after they figured out it killed all their long range builds and turned everyone into brawlers.

That's why I agree with him...

No.

E-

PS, I'm a brawler
PPS, Arms with fists are OP.

Edited by armchairyoda, 04 March 2013 - 11:15 AM.

[Adridos]

HammerSwarm, on 04 March 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

I love Mr BattleTech elite. Thanks for coming. You should read more on the Sarna before replying. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Trebuchet let me quote more about this for you, "For additional protection, this Trebuchet carries Modular Armor on the front of each torso and a Small Shield on the left arm." That is a cannon mech as far as I know being described in the http://www.sarna.net...dout:_Periphery

Modular armor... experimental... 3070.

TBT-XK7... experimental, periphery mech using Clan era tech... 1 model ever created... later than we are now.



Also, "cannon mech"? That Trebuchet has no cannons on it.

[HammerSwarm]

armchairyoda, on 04 March 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

And mebbe you should've read the rest of his post.

I'm going to cite my experience as far as TT/canon shields went: the people I played with ignored them after they figured out it killed all their long range builds and turned everyone into brawlers.

That's why I agree with him...

No.

E-

PS, I'm a brawler
PPS, Arms with fists are OP.

I did read his whole post, where he belittled the guy by stating that no where not one place is a shield mentioned on a centurion, then went on to dismiss the idea outright. I only quoted the first part so he would know I was responding to him.

I don't care if shields are or aren't added because I enjoy playing my centurions now (have all 3 mastered) and routinely use that arm as a shield. If they added a shield I'd probably use it on one variant and have fun doing so.

Would it change the dynamics? sure would. Would it overpower things and make ranged builds useless? not likely. This is a live game, not turn based. I'm not looking for the shield to be an outright moving bulwark but rather a bit of added protection that would allow mechs moving in the open to deflect some additional fire. Agree? disagree? sweet, but don't go all BT elite and dismiss people's ideas.

Adridos, on 04 March 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

Modular armor... experimental... 3070.
TBT-XK7... experimental, periphery mech using Clan era tech... 1 model ever created... later than we are now.

It was a for example to prove it was a canon idea.

Adridos, on 04 March 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

Also, "cannon mech"? That Trebuchet has no cannons on it.

My bad on the typo bro. Good call on correcting me it totally invalidates my whole post.

[Mechteric]

The left arm is good to be used as a damage sponge, though it would be nice if it could get something similar of benefit as keeping your missile bay doors closed for a 10% damage reduction bonus on that limb.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 04 March 2013 - 11:35 AM.

[armchairyoda]

HammerSwarm, on 04 March 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

I only quoted the first part so he would know I was responding to him. I don't care if shields are or aren't added because I enjoy playing my centurions now (have all 3 mastered) and routinely use that arm as a shield. If they added a shield I'd probably use it on one variant and have fun doing so. Would it change the dynamics? sure would. Would it overpower things and make ranged builds useless? not likely. This is a live game, not turn based. I'm not looking for the shield to be an outright moving bulwark but rather a bit of added protection that would allow mechs moving in the open to deflect some additional fire. Agree? disagree? sweet, but don't go all BT elite and dismiss people's ideas.

If you give me a shield, I will walk up the middle of that lake that you kids seem to love so much on Forest Colony, and then steal all your imaginary girlfriends.

They were crap for the long game in TT. They will be even more crap for the long game here because of the all the tears it will cause people that don't know/understand how to drive a gundam. Let alone shoot... Seriously, some people are really bad at that. Even if they're good to better-than-average, they will howl "NO FAIR!" in /ragequits if they face anyone that knows how to drive their 'bot.

I know *you think* you understand what something like that would do in this game, but *I know* from your post that you do not understand what adding shields will do to the players in this game.

Did you read my PPS? If there were shields in this game, that would be seriously posted by 75% of the vocal minority in these forums, including you after one match versus moi.

Take a break from posting in every thread in this sub-forum and spend a minute to think about it.

HammerSwarm, on 04 March 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

Good call on correcting me it totally invalidates my whole post.

That part really didn't (I KNOW, you're an ironic/sarcastic internet guy), but it's nice to see you admit it anyway. I'm going to add that to my sig later.

PS- Sigs are OP.

[Hopdevil]

Well this got out of hand real quick. Just asking for 5 or 10 extra hitpoints to take the extra shot or two.

[HammerSwarm]

armchairyoda, on 04 March 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

If you give me a shield, I will walk up the middle of that lake that you kids seem to love so much on Forest Colony, and then steal all your imaginary girlfriends.

They were crap for the long game in TT. They will be even more crap for the long game here because of the all the tears it will cause people that don't know/understand how to drive a gundam. Let alone shoot... Seriously, some people are really bad at that. Even if they're good to better-than-average, they will howl "NO FAIR!" in /ragequits if they face anyone that knows how to drive their 'bot.

I know *you think* you understand what something like that would do in this game, but *I know* from your post that you do not understand what adding shields will do to the players in this game.

Did you read my PPS? If there were shields in this game, that would be seriously posted by 75% of the vocal minority in these forums, including you after one match versus moi.

Take a break from posting in every thread in this sub-forum and spend a minute to think about it.

Oh you witty man you, stealing my imaginary girlfriend, oh so clever.

Back on topic

So you'd walk down the middle with a shield? that sounds exactly what a shield would be for. Taking damage and getting closer to the combat. If a shield could be used by brawlers to get into brawling range against long range boats that sounds exactly like something that would have been invented! You've stated repeatedly that people who you played BT with used shields and found them to be OP, that's a balance issue not a functionality issue.

I'd like to see shields implemented.

[focuspark]

I've seen Cent's "dead" arm used to great effect. Such good effect that I've considered actually purchasing one.

Example: one pilot would walk "shield arm" forward everywhere, the arm took a beating but he could swing out that big 'ol Gauss cannon and smack people in the face. He was literally the toughest opponent on the opposing team. Actually took my Stalker a while to pulverize him. Compared to his Atlas friend, the Cent seemed tough as nails.

I've seen this several times. I even found a video on YouTube demonstrating that by turning the torso and doing something with the key board you and keep the head straight and the body rotated. Pretty amazing honestly.

[HammerSwarm]

focuspark, on 05 March 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

I've seen Cent's "dead" arm used to great effect. Such good effect that I've considered actually purchasing one.

Example: one pilot would walk "shield arm" forward everywhere, the arm took a beating but he could swing out that big 'ol Gauss cannon and smack people in the face. He was literally the toughest opponent on the opposing team. Actually took my Stalker a while to pulverize him. Compared to his Atlas friend, the Cent seemed tough as nails.

I've seen this several times. I even found a video on YouTube demonstrating that by turning the torso and doing something with the key board you and keep the head straight and the body rotated. Pretty amazing honestly.

I love the centurion chassis. I have all three variants and I am just waiting for more skills/achievements to dust them off and get back to being small and stout in my cent. The dead arm is already pretty effective, but I am always looking for new suggestions like an improved shield.