221 replies to this topic

[Flapdrol]

Ran into a flock of ravens last night, think one of them was actually using a ppc. Luckily they were very bad pilots and my trebuchet has jumpjets.

[StalaggtIKE]

This game is still ECMWO. Every game revolves around neutralizing the enemy's ECM and maximizing the potential of your own. PPC's new EMP effect only makes ECM mechs more favorable, because they stack. PPC do not counter ECM, they simply turn it off. Just like how ECM turns off radar, LRM and SSRM. It is far to binary; if A is present then B does not work. This is a poor mechanic. Games are having to do more with what you bring and less to do with the skill level of the pilot. This is more prevalent on the new Alpine map.
You drop without ECM, PPC or TAG vs a team that brought ECM. -- You are fighting an uphill battle.
If you drop with TAG vs a team that did not bring ECM. -- You now have wasted dead weight, that could have been better used else where.
Proper balance is when you want something despite its limitations, because it is useful in a good pilot's hands. Currently ECM requires no skill to use. TAG is useless if no ECM is around. In other words:

• give me a reason to not want to take ECM every single time
  
• give me a reason to take TAG despite the inclusion of ECM.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 20 February 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[Twisted Power]

Well I Played last night a bunch. I did not notice any difference. In the matches where I had PPC's they had 2 DDC atlases and 2 ECM raven. Did not do anything for the missile equipped mechs on my team.

Last night we actually played that same group over about 3-4 times (I guess due to the new matchmaker). It was 2 DDC atlas 1 ECM raven and a 6 SRM6 A1. We did beat that team a few times (we lost at least 1 maby 2 games) but the winning games were all with TAG counters and not with any PPC's. The PPC's can't do anything about that kind of combo it is a 3 ECM bubble. The atlases and SRM6 boat were able to sneak up real close, walk point blank into mechs and alpha. The first time we met them it was with PPC's, the next few times it was with TAG.

As far as I am concerned as long as ECM allows multiple heavy/assault mechs with NOTHING but close range weapons to close into an opponent without having to worry about much of anything, then ECM is still going to be broken. The patch last night was basically a new mech and a new map. Gameplay was not really effected.

Edited by Twisted Power, 20 February 2013 - 06:31 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Twisted Power, on 20 February 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

s far as I am concerned as long as ECM allows multiple heavy/assault mechs with NOTHING but close range weapons to close into an opponent without having to worry about much of anything, then ECM is still going to be broken. The patch last night was basically a new mech and a new map. Gameplay was not really effected.

You hit the nail on the head. Supposedly, ECM's goal was to encourage diverse builds. Instead, it encouraged close range builds. No effort is required in order to close in on a target. ECM does this for you.

[Butane9000]

My ideas for fixing ECM:

- Keep the EMP effect of PPC's. Include in this effect the interruption of their HUD and lock ons (SSRMs and LRMs).

- Increase the critical space use to 5 instead of 2.

- Double the tonnage. This will actually force mechs that can use ECM to give up something in return (i.e. weapons/weight).

These three things can balance out ECM. They also are not overkill.

[Murrdox]

Started a match with my brand-new Trebuchet.

Run into a nice line of juicy targets all lined up on a hilltop. Not all that far away. If I'd had Autocannons or Large Lasers I'd have been blasting away.

But instead I can't even target a single one of them, even though they're sitting there in plain sight, and my missiles sit cold in their launch tubes. Spent the entire match firing Medium Lasers.

I get that ECM needs to be in the game, because PGI basically gave everybody free C3 Computer nets, but one little piece of equipment shouldn't be able to just completely shut down a Mech like this. This is NOT how ECM works in the Table-Top game. Have ECM block targets that are painted for you by spotters, but if your own Mech has Line of Sight on an enemy Mech, you should be able to get IFF information on that Mech, and target it with all your weapons. I'll give you some increase in lock-on time, and maybe some added missile inaccuracy for going through the ECM bubble.

The IFF disruption has bugged me from the start with ECM. Again, not in the table-top game at all and just further imbalances this piece of equipment.

What really is starting to bug me is that ECM hasn't seen any changes at all since it was implemented, despite all the feedback that's been given on it. I haven't seen any Developer blogs talking about future adjustments to it either, but please someone post a link to one if I've missed it.

Please fix LRMs (so that as soon as ECM goes away people don't whine about LRMs forever) and fix ECM.

But thank you for fixing Autocannons, Large Lasers and PPCs (and many other things). I know in the end we just have to be patient... fixes are coming.

[Flapdrol]

Quote

Streak-SRMs - OMG NERF THEM!
Nov 23 - Update

We are very aware of what the streaks are doing at the moment. They ARE going to be nerfed. How is still under internal discussion/testing at the moment.

What has happened (and as noted in the last patch notes), was that two bugs were fixed. The first was to make sure the missiles ALWAYS hit. The second one was some underlying bug that was preventing the SSRMs from doing full damage. Now that those two bugs were fixed, the amount of damage per volley has increased due to the combination of both of these fixes.

We will be addressing this ASAP and I'll keep you updated on the progress.


----

UPDATE (Nov 26,2012):

Just so you guys know, I'm not looking into nerfing damage or operation right now. This nerf should not directly affect people using 1 or 2 launchers. We are trying to look into ways of reducing efficiency when you try to boat these systems. We are still discussing the implications of some planned routes and again, I'll let you know what we start to move forward with.

These ever make it in? dont think so. And why shouldn't it affect people with one or 2 launchers? Light vs light should not be streak dominated like it is now.

ECM is still an OP piece of crap, all you had to do to make it a nice system was to put in a reduction multiplier on detection range for units protected by ecm and increase enemy lock on times. Instead it's a hardcounter to streaks and a counter for itself, radar jammer, friendlies hud remover etc. Yeah, "working as intended"

Edited by Flapdrol, 20 February 2013 - 08:22 AM.

[Inertiaman]

I saw someone instacore a teammate with an AC20 last night by mistake because he had no IFF marker and had the audacity to be facing the wrong way in upper city. I lol'd but still want ECM changed.

[DocBach]

Murrdox, on 20 February 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

I get that ECM needs to be in the game, because PGI basically gave everybody free C3 Computer nets, but one little piece of equipment shouldn't be able to just completely shut down a Mech like this.

Agreed with most if what you said -- but quit propagating this untruth. All 'Mechs can share target information without C3. ECM doesn't affect indirect fire of LRM's, which is spotted by target sharing in BattleTech just like this game.

When I asked Paul on the Classic Battletech forums, (yes, he's "only" site admin and he only wrote the latest roleplaying rules for the latest MechWarrior RPG A Time of War, so he might not be a subject matter expert), he said:

"ECM does not affect LRM Indirect Fire or Streak in any way, shape or form.
Angel ECM can disable Streak's ability to lock on."

So, even shrouded by ECM, a target should be able to be locked and the information transmitted to a support 'Mech to be fired upon. C3 networks provided targeting bonuses to those connected by it, and that is what is affected by ECM.

[ICEFANG13]

Also the counters are funny. I mean its not like ECM mechs can't use them themselves (like the 3L or D-DC who already have 3->4 module slots). Sure counters, even if they worked, but its not counter.

Raven-3L has X+Y+Z to counter ECM, and ECM
Unit SSDD has X+Y+Z to counter ECM

GENIUS!

[Murrdox]

DocBach, on 20 February 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

Agreed with most if what you said -- but quit propagating this untruth. All 'Mechs can share target information without C3. ECM doesn't affect indirect fire of LRM's, which is spotted by target sharing in BattleTech just like this game.

When I asked Paul on the Classic Battletech forums, (yes, he's "only" site admin and he only wrote the latest roleplaying rules for the latest MechWarrior RPG A Time of War, so he might not be a subject matter expert), he said:

"ECM does not affect LRM Indirect Fire or Streak in any way, shape or form.
Angel ECM can disable Streak's ability to lock on."

So, even shrouded by ECM, a target should be able to be locked and the information transmitted to a support 'Mech to be fired upon. C3 networks provided targeting bonuses to those connected by it, and that is what is affected by ECM.

I think you're partially correct. In Battletech, you can indirect fire LRMs at a target using a spotter. However I'd say that equates to firing your missiles unguided into the air, using telemetry information provided by a spotter. On the contrary, having a C3 Computer lets a spotter give you an actual target lock. But these are really just semantics.

The tabletop game is a lot different from a computer game, especially when it comes to LRM fire. I realize and acknowledge this, and making Mechwarrior Online a fun game is more important than being a complete slave to tabletop.

In Battletch, Missiles are fired as any other weapon, meaning that they can hit or miss outright. Once they hit or miss, the number of missiles that actually damage the target is randomly determined. The damage is then divided into blocks and randomly allocated to different sections of the Mech. ECM has absolutely no effect on any of this unless Artemis or NARC are being used. Even then, NARC and Artemis don't influence the ability of the Mech to hit the target to start with, they only improve the amount of damage done.

In MW:O, LRMs are NOT fired as any other weapon. You lock on with them. Once locked, they have a limited homing mechanism, meaning they will always hit. Fast Mechs are capable of dodging, and other Mechs can get behind cover, but it's pretty hard to avoid any damage at all if you've been locked onto. This is quite different from the tabletop game, where LRMs are very capable of missing entirely a large percentage of the time. Secondly in MW:O we're much more in the dark as far as how damage is calculated and how many missiles end up hitting the target. We know AMS can shoot some missiles down if they have a long flight time, but it's unclear how much dodging and cover come into play when determining how many missiles strike home. If your Mech is standing still, and your target is standing still, and you fire your missile rack, do ALL your missiles always strike home? Is it randomly determined? Some other factor? In tabletop, even a perfect hit with your LRMs with both the firer and the target standing still doesn't change the fact that the number of missiles which damage the target is randomized.

If I was going to design LRMs for MW:O and make them exactly like Battletech, then I would eliminate the target lock aspect from them completely. I would essentially fire them like SRMs: dumbfire. I would make them semi-guided such that over medium and long distances, if they were fired close enough to the current target, they would try to home in. This means you'd have to actually need to lead your target a bit with LRM fire over long distances, and aim, as opposed to locking on, and then "fire and forget".

However, I don't think that system would be very FUN for a video game, and that's why even since the days of Mechwarrior 2, LRMs have always locked onto their target. BUT, that's what leads me to say that in MW:O we essentially all have C3 computers, because spotters give us full sensor information that we can lock onto. If MW:O eventually implements C3 Computer networks, I have a hard time imagining how that would work. I imagine it would be some sort of aim-assisting system, whereby if you targeted a Mech that was also targeted by a friendly, your targetting reticule would use your friend's target information to provide some automatic aim-assist for your direct-fire weapons.

What were we talking about again? Oh right, ECM

Anyways, Since LRMs don't work like they do in Battletech, I don't think ECM does either, and I think it's fair that it has SOME impact on lock-ons from LRMs, simply because LRM lock-ons are so reliable and easy to use. But I do think ECM goes too far in countering them. I'd be much more in favor of longer lock-on times, less missiles hitting the target, and disruption to BAP, NARC, and Artemis. Ditch absolutely everything else that has been implemented about ECM.

[EDIT] Sorry one thing I do like about ECM that has no effect on LRM fire is the elimination of a Scout Mech to share target information with its squad. But I think if you have LoS to a Mech, you should be able to lock onto it, period. It's your onboard computer doing the locking on, afterall, not an outside source.

Edited by Murrdox, 20 February 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[Umbra8]

PGI, drag ECM out behind the woodshed and beat it with the nerf bat until it looks like hamburger or like this: http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

Then I might actually spend another dime or even recommended your game. As it stands it doesn't look like you know what the hell you're doing.

[Rocket2Uranus]

ECM is op. I agree.
But if ECM is nerfed to a degree, say goodbye to all your mechs. LRMs will return again. And it'll be LRM boating all over again.

I'd rather have ECM then LRM boating matches again.

[Sable Dove]

Rocket2Uranus, on 20 February 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

ECM is op. I agree.
But if ECM is nerfed to a degree, say goodbye to all your mechs. LRMs will return again. And it'll be LRM boating all over again.

I'd rather have ECM then LRM boating matches again.

Or they could nerf both at the same time, because ECM is grossly overpowered, but without it, LRMs as they are are overpowered.

[DocBach]

Sable Dove, on 20 February 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

Or they could nerf both at the same time, because ECM is grossly overpowered, but without it, LRMs as they are are overpowered.

Fixing broken mechanics with more broken mechanics really isn't fixing anything, you just got two separately broken things. For some reason PGI hasn't figured that out yet.

[ExAstris]

I cannot stress enough how much of an issue ECM is.

I have written exntensively about the state of information warfare as it currently stands in MWO.
I have written at length about an implimentation of information warfare that I think is plainly superior to the current iteration in every aspect.
I have continuously read over the feedback and suggestion forums for ideas and arguments, pro and con, regarding the ECM implimentation because it is by far the single largest fault I find in MWO.

Our suggestions, complaints, and running commentary have all gone without response through multiple Ask the Devs and months of the most active threads (without even a sticky to achnowledge its importance). There was a claim that an official statement about ECM was being prepped, it has been weeks and has not materialized. There were also claims about testing various iterations of the device internally, but we have heard nothing about the possibility of any incarnation other than the current one being implimented. Summarily, we have been given no hope of change, merely stalling tactics.

My frustration level over this topic is reaching critical levels. For every hour I spend actually playing the game, I spend an hour reading and writing on this topic in the hopes the game will be changed. I play far less than I did, nor can I forsee any additions to MWO that could positively affect that decline while simultaneously leaving the ECM balance as it currently is.

I don't threaten to quit games. When I no longer enjoy a game, I just stop playing it. This is merely a heads-up. My interest is waning, and I know precisely why. Right now, MWO has been dipping unfortunately close to not worth my time. I don't know if I'll drop it or not, it has so many great things going for it.

But right now, ECM is the only thing that single-handedly makes me want to write explitive-laden posts. It is the only thing that makes me question the competence of the Devs. It is the single supersoldier in the rag-tag band of desires that actively combat my will to play. It is an excitement leach attached to every thought of MWO.

It is a disease.

[ICEFANG13]

Other than ECM, what really needs attention is weapon boating. I have no problem with the idea, I think people should be able to do what they want, and boating makes sense. An LRM-20 SHOULD be able to deal great damage, a SRM-6 SHOULD be a punch to the face, a Medium Laser SHOULD be a solid weapon that is reliable and effective in multiple spots, and I feel quite a lot of weapons are, but when you bring a ton of the same weapon, its strengths are increased, but its weaknesses are not (ie having LRM-20 is a very solid indirect damage, but cannot be used at range-180 and all other LRM weaknesses, having LRM-80 has the same problems, but does so much more damage).

Part of importance in this game, is forcing engagements in bad spots for them, light mechs are easiest and do it most, but its too hard at times to even get a chance to live and force engagements against 6-SRM6, or LRM-80, 2 A/C-20. The weapons are all absolutely balanced (except for obvious ones, maybe Flamer, perhaps MG and LBX now, Small Pulses), but when you start to carry a ton, then you have a problem.

[Twisted Power]

ExAstris, on 20 February 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

I cannot stress enough how much of an issue ECM is.

Yes you can. You would just have to stress it about 1 billion times and then, and maybe only then will PGI wake up out of their dreamland they are in and go "O ****... did we realy do that?"

[Cest7]

ECM + SSRM + Light Chassis Vs. Light Chassis

Most OP thing in this game.

[Asha Catari]

Twisted Power, on 20 February 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

Yes you can. You would just have to stress it about 1 billion times and then, and maybe only then will PGI wake up out of their dreamland they are in and go "O ****... did we realy do that?"

I will quote myself on this topic:
"I know, but the developers seem so much in love with their own ingeniousness they call ecm-stealth mode, I just doubt they will ever be willing to give up the idea completely."