25 replies to this topic

[ElLocoMarko]

pseudocoder, on 20 February 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

What you are describing is how ground based laser targeting systems work to "paint" a target for a guided munition dropped from an aircraft. I don't think that's how TAG is supposed to work.

It appears that TAG is something like a laser rangefinder which uses C3 to relay targeting information from your mech to team mechs. Your teammates do NOT use the refraction of the TAG beam on the target, otherwise you would need line of sight to target a TAG'd enemy.

I agree that if TAG works to pierce the ECM bubble from outside it, you should be able to use it locally (within your own mech) to designate a target while within the bubble.

I think you just nailed down a physical explanation for the current behavior of ECM. I thought it was just a bunch of random gameplay aspects that they flipped at their whim but what you say makes sense till the very end.

If TAG is indeed a rangefinder then certainly your mech would have target information when you "paint" them. But your mech cannot transmit that information to your missiles via C3 because of ECM jamming - you are cut off from your fired missiles. That really does cover current behavior of LRM and streaks.

While we are talking about real world explanations...
ECM invisibility is still a problem because ECM is by all definitions a strong radio transmitter. Range and size of target are obscured but the vector of the strong transmitter is not a mystery. But PGI doesn't really have a radar mechanic to indicate direction without an exact position so perhaps some patience.

ECM disrupt seems to behave as wave cancellation seeing as it has a 180m bubble. Except you cannot universally cancel out a wave from anywhere but the source of the wave. Throw a rock in a pond. Throw a second rock 10 feet away with perfect timing to flatten out the wave... cannot be done. OH! New NARC beacon! one that cancels ECM.

What they haven't brought into the game are a host of current technologies which do defeat ECM regardless of your position relative to the ECM transmitter. Like laser-guidance or heat guidance (oh the mayhem because it would hit friendlies). ECCM is debatable as it is in a constant technology race against ECM.

[Kyone Akashi]

ElLocoMarko, on 20 February 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

If TAG is indeed a rangefinder then certainly your mech would have target information when you "paint" them. But your mech cannot transmit that information to your missiles via C3 because of ECM jamming - you are cut off from your fired missiles. That really does cover current behavior of LRM and streaks.

Not really. Even if you cannot transmit the targeting information, the missiles should still be able to launch.

I think this is why, in the tabletop, Angel ECM turns Streak SRM launchers into normal SRMs: the missiles lose their lock, but your 'Mech does not, so the former are launched "smart" but become "dumb" as soon as they left their tubes. The behavior would be similar to, say, when you would launch a salvo of LRMs but a moment later your target disappears behind a hill. The missiles will keep flying, they just won't hit their intended target with the same reliability.

What ECM does right now is to block missiles entirely; you cannot even dumbfire SSRMs.

And all this whilst we are actually talking about the Guardian-suite rather than the Angel, meaning that missiles as well as basic targeting should not be affected by ECM whatsoever if we were to go by established Battletech background.

For some reason, it was decided to make ECM much more powerful, and whilst I think that that this works well with LRMs (due to TAG being a viable counter at long range), it has essentially monopolized SSRMs into becoming the exclusive advantage of ECM-Mechs. This, coupled with Streaks' current flight behavior has created a really weird and oftentimes frustrating experience in Light-vs-Light combat for anyone not piloting one of the few select chassis/variants "allowed" to equip the Guardian-suite.
It would not be as bad if Streaks would not "always hit", even when fired into the opposite direction and when their target is already behind the 'Mech that launched them.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 20 February 2013 - 04:08 PM.

[Deamhan]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 20 February 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

The laser is for the benefit of your targeting system.

Your systems then broadcast this data to friendly targeting systems allowing them to target.

When you are within an ECM bubble your transmissions to your friendlies are jammed.

Ok so care to explain why then the tag user can't get a lock for his/her self only then?

[Deamhan]

Bump for an answer from the Dev

[Buso Senshi Zelazny]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 20 February 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

The laser is for the benefit of your targeting system.

Your systems then broadcast this data to friendly targeting systems allowing them to target.

When you are within an ECM bubble your transmissions to your friendlies are jammed.

This logic makes perfect sense for why ECM denies target lock to 'mechs outside of the ECM bubble when TAG is being used inside the bubble. However, the sharing of target information comes from the C3 computer which every 'mech is equipped with in MW:O. You specifically stated that TAG is solely for the benefit of your own targeting system, so by this logic, if you TAG an enemy 'mech while both of you are inside the ECM bubble, then you and ONLY you should be able to acquire a lock and fire guided munitions on the target. Was this situation considered by the devs, and if so, could you please explain why this is not allowed, or enlighten me to a gameplay mechanic that I have overlooked in making my assumptions?

[Terror Teddy]

Stringburka, on 20 February 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Yes, but if I carry both SSRM and TAG, why can't I use TAG to increase effectiveness of my own SSRM?

Good point.

As long as you are OUTSIDE the effect of the ECM system and TAG an enemy you should have no problem targeting them.

After all, you are using (basically) a Range-Finder to the target combined with your GPS system to ***** the enemy position - there is no way the ECM should be able to affect that unless it had the ability to bend light.

And i dont want to see predator mechs in this game because that means cockpit munching acid spitting mechxomorphs and big yellow mechs with huge claws made for lifting with an angry woman inside...