152 replies to this topic

[Hekalite]

IceCase88, on 20 February 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

Can you count? I am not trying to be mean because it is a legitimate question. ECM has 3 counters... 1, 2, 3. ECM, TAG, and PPCs. You can actually say it has 5 if you include component destruction and mech destruction. ECM only affects 2 weapons. 1, 2. SSRMs and LRMs. LRMs are just as abundant, and effective, as they were when I started playing in November. ECM does not counter ACs, Gauss, lasers, ppcs, flamers, mgs, and SRMs. Of the 9 different weapon types it only affects 2 weapons. Just 2. Only 2. If you want to count each weapon individually your argument gets even weaker that it is OP.

ECM works as intended and according TT. You can quote total warfare all you want but the fact is it just says ECM suite and not Guardian ECM Suite. Is it referring to the Liao ECM suite which weighed 7 tons or the GECM? You cannot answer that question. You can only assume.

In closing... I love the it is OP because it only weighs 1.5 tons which is the dumbest attempt at an argument ever. Size is irrelevant. If you want to argue it costs too little than that is more of a valid argument or maybe it should be reserved for a module slot when you master a mech class. However that would deny new players of its use. Those of you against ECM are a vocal minority but a minority nonetheless. Most of you are probably ssrm boaters or lrm boaters. Build a balanced mech and L2P and you will be fine.

Did I say how many weapons? No. I said how many items.

Items ECM counters
LRMs
SRMs
Narc
BAP
Artemis
Advanced Target Decay (x2)
360 Target
Advanced Sensor (x2)
Target Info
ECM

Items to counter ECM
ECM
Tag
PPCs
Advanced Sensor (x2)

That's 12 items that ECM counters versus 5. Not every item is completely countered obviously, but then the only complete counter to ECM is ECM.

Size is not irrelevant. The three primary means of balancing equipment are weight, number of crit slots and heat generated. Hint: it's why an AC/20 weights more than a small laser.

Are you so sure the current implementation is perfect? Why is it so hard for the L2P crowd to understand that it's possible for this game to be better? What is wrong with adding a little weight, tweaking the bubble range etc.? If they make adjustments can't you just adapt?

Everyone loves to sling around the term 'vocal minority' but we really have no way of knowing which opinion is more common. Attempting to shout down people who have a different opinion is not a constructive way to improve this game.

[Rift Hawk]

Hekalite, on 21 February 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

Did I say how many weapons? No. I said how many items.

Items ECM counters
LRMs
SRMs
Narc
BAP
Artemis
Advanced Target Decay (x2)
360 Target
Advanced Sensor (x2)
Target Info
ECM

Items to counter ECM
ECM
Tag
PPCs
Advanced Sensor (x2)

That's 12 items that ECM counters versus 5. Not every item is completely countered obviously, but then the only complete counter to ECM is ECM.

Size is not irrelevant. The three primary means of balancing equipment are weight, number of crit slots and heat generated. Hint: it's why an AC/20 weights more than a small laser.

Are you so sure the current implementation is perfect? Why is it so hard for the L2P crowd to understand that it's possible for this game to be better? What is wrong with adding a little weight, tweaking the bubble range etc.? If they make adjustments can't you just adapt?

Everyone loves to sling around the term 'vocal minority' but we really have no way of knowing which opinion is more common. Attempting to shout down people who have a different opinion is not a constructive way to improve this game.

First, no people can't adapt. If they adjust ECM so that its weight is increased, the lights might not be able to fit that last streak launcher !!! YOUR RUINING THE GAME FOR THEM QQ !!!!

Second, if your using ECM, you shouldn't be able to use missiles. No streaks, no LRMs, none. Period.

Last, the way to solve the ECM problem is not to add more counters to it, its to fix ECM. Adding more counters effectively makes the module useless after too many are added. Not to mention the current counters are half a$$ed counters. Four seconds from the PPC isn't even fast enough to lock the target let alone send any LRMs at it. You have to rely on the target getting hit continously throughout the time it takes to lock, fire, and have your missles take 5-15 seconds to get there and hit. ECM isn't even a surefire counter to ECM. As if they have more than one too close, you aren't countering ****.

[DocBach]

IceCase88, on 21 February 2013 - 02:55 AM, said:

Good thing S@ddam Hussein's armed forces, or the Taliban, didn't complain about the US armed forces being too powerful! It would've have been classic to see S@ddam complaining how the US's ECM would not let his SAMs hit the US fighter planes.

All of you QQing about ECM are in for a rude awakening when the Clans come with their better weapons. Nerf everything! We must have balance and order everywhere! pffffft... L2P or pack your marbles up. Whiniest group of players ever.

I bet the Iraqis had tons of fun when we used ECM to bomb them further back into the stone age. I remember how excited they were to see our MRAP's pull up, pummeling their cell phones with our DUKE ECM. They looked like they were having a great time!

The difference between the Clans and ECM, is the Clans are suppose to have a powerful effect in this game. ECM is not. ECM is suppose to counter a whole subset of niche electronics, not nearly everything in the game. If they implemented it right, electronic warfare vs other electronic warfare 'Mechs could be a deep game in itself. Instead, they made it over reaching so everything in the game revolves around ECM. Patches. Equipment. Strategies. Builds. Modules. All recent additions have been to try to bandaid their mistakes.

....And don't try to quote the description on Sarna to tell me how ECM is working correctly, as it's actually an altered passage from the fluff of the Nightshade VTOL from Technical Readout: 2750 that they changed to not infringe on copyrights, and has no correlation to the actual game rules.

[Red squirrel]

Icemantas, on 21 February 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

Where is my rear view mirror?

It's lostech!

Lykaon, on 21 February 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

...well you get the picture.Information warfare has become ECM warfare.

exactly this.

A good comparison would be if your only choice of weapon would be between a Gauss Rifle, a Flamer, and an MG.

[Red squirrel]

IceCase88, on 21 February 2013 - 02:55 AM, said:

Good thing S@ddam Hussein's armed forces, or the Taliban, didn't complain about the US armed forces being too powerful! It would've have been classic to see S@ddam complaining how the US's ECM would not let his SAMs hit the US fighter planes.

All of you QQing about ECM are in for a rude awakening when the Clans come with their better weapons. Nerf everything! We must have balance and order everywhere! pffffft... L2P or pack your marbles up. Whiniest group of players ever.

I think you dont get it:

People are not QQing about something killed me it's OP.
They are complaining that ECM takes the depth out of the game.

As stated before Mech warfare, Information warfare, Role warfare is now ECM warfare.

[Kyone Akashi]

Red squirrel, on 21 February 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

A good comparison would be if your only choice of weapon would be between a Gauss Rifle, a Flamer, and an MG.

And only 4 variants are allowed to equip the Gauss.

[Teralitha]

You know... if they just made ECM and BAP like they were in MW4 everything would be fair and balanced.

[Red squirrel]

Lykaon, on 21 February 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

[...]
Is that the evolution of meta play we want to see?

I fear that this is the road we are all going down.Every patch developers expend effort and resources on adding new anti ECM features.They are laboring to force an entire game system around one single support item.

[...]

Whatever is next because it has been stated that future plans to improve ECM counters are in the works (so more time/resources applied to jamming ECM's square peg into mechwarrior online's round hole)

Let's just look at this objectivley and see that ECM is the issue not EVERYTHING ELSE!

I think it's so sad this is happening. The only thing so far not related to ECM are the new cockpit items.

[Red squirrel]

Hekalite, on 21 February 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

Size is not irrelevant. The three primary means of balancing equipment are weight, number of crit slots and heat generated. Hint: it's why an AC/20 weights more than a small laser.

That was supposed to be a secret only the founders are allowed to know!!

Hekalite, on 21 February 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

Are you so sure the current implementation is perfect? Why is it so hard for the L2P crowd to understand that it's possible for this game to be better? What is wrong with adding a little weight, tweaking the bubble range etc.? If they make adjustments can't you just adapt?

A post that contains the word L2P as a fundamental argument about anything has a 100% chance of beeing a troll post. So don't feed the trolls.

Hekalite, on 21 February 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

Everyone loves to sling around the term 'vocal minority' but we really have no way of knowing which opinion is more common. Attempting to shout down people who have a different opinion is not a constructive way to improve this game.

This reminds me a lot about the last U.S. election. Maybe we should ask Nate Silver to model the popularity of ECM
Pretending to be a silent majority is the third worst argument while L2P holds both 1st and 2nd place.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Actually the L2P crowd would, y definition, adapt. Their overarching point is that the bitching has gone on long enough and that many people if they would L2P, would find ECM to not be the incredible challenge they are making it out to be.

Could ECM use some tweaking? Possibly. Did PGI mention that they are going to continue to add facets to the EW game (therefore fairly confirming that we're still in the early stages of ECM vs the world)? I believe they did.

[DocBach]

Teralitha, on 21 February 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

You know... if they just made ECM and BAP like they were in MW4 everything would be fair and balanced.

They can do a lot better than MW4 and make both systems interesting while providing utility without complete dominance and unbalance.

Lukoi, on 21 February 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

Actually the L2P crowd would, y definition, adapt. Their overarching point is that the bitching has gone on long enough and that many people if they would L2P, would find ECM to not be the incredible challenge they are making it out to be.

Could ECM use some tweaking? Possibly. Did PGI mention that they are going to continue to add facets to the EW game (therefore fairly confirming that we're still in the early stages of ECM vs the world)? I believe they did.

So what if I have a 6-1 win ratio and a 3.5 k/d, and don't use missiles? What if I never needed to adapt because my play style wasn't affected (well actually it was, now I can run ECM and run out in the open without fearing LRM's for the most part).

What if I told the people crying about LRM's to just L2P and adapt to them? Why can that argument only be used against players who prefer guided weapons?

The mentality of people that are rabidly in support keeping the ECM status quo seems to be "if a broken mechanic fixes a different broken mechanic I don't like, I don't think its broken," without admitting that several things are broken and need to be fixed for the well-being and fidelity of the game.

[Strig]

The problem isn't entirely that ECM is overpowered although I also agree that ECM is currently doing too many things and it should be multiple pieces of Electronic Warfare equipment and modules that accomplish the same effects, not just one UBER item.

The real problem: ECM on the Commando, Raven and Atlas is on best chassis for ECM.

The presence of lack of ECM on a chassis should make one decide between two equally useful mechs. As it is, there is no reason to take any other commando except to level them up so you can master the Commando 2D. The Raven is essentially the same (although some might argue that at least the jump-jet variant has something to offer). The same holds true for the Atlas (with the possible exception of the RS which offers considerably different build options compared to the others).

ECM should have been on these mechs (IMHO) cannon be damned:

• COM-1B (3e, 1m) (weakest commando, nothing to recommend it over the rest)
  
• SDR-5D (3e) ... (really, any of the spiders are fine, this one can stay as is)
  
• RVN-2X (4e, 1m) (no JJ, no engine upgrade and least missiles)
  
• CDA-3C (1e, 4b) (probably fine in the 3M but the 3C is the worst and ECM would make it a viable choice)
  
• AS7-K (4e, 1b, 1m) (weakest Atlas. 1 less module slot than D-DC, 1 less hardpoint than all the others! Extra AMS doesn't make up for this, but it could imply that the AS7-K is designed as a long-range support anti-missile platform ... which makes it the natural fit for ECM and would make this chasis a viable option as opposed to taking any of the others)

Edited by Strig, 21 February 2013 - 11:15 AM.

[Arpacolas]

People have insisted that ECM is fine for 2 months now. The fact that it has already been nerfed 3 times now (TAG, PPC, module), will continue to get nerfed (according to you) and people still stick it inside anything that can carry it tells me otherwise.

[Red squirrel]

DocBach, on 21 February 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

They can do a lot better than MW4 and make both systems interesting while providing utility without complete dominance and unbalance.



So what if I have a 6-1 win ratio and a 3.5 k/d, and don't use missiles? What if I never needed to adapt because my play style wasn't affected (well actually it was, now I can run ECM and run out in the open without fearing LRM's for the most part).

What if I told the people crying about LRM's to just L2P and adapt to them? Why can that argument only be used against players who prefer guided weapons?

The mentality of people that are rabidly in support keeping the ECM status quo seems to be "if a broken mechanic fixes a different broken mechanic I don't like, I don't think its broken," without admitting that several things are broken and need to be fixed for the well-being and fidelity of the game.

I think no serious person would ever use the L2P argument. It is an argumentum ad hominem and has no place in a debate. Even more I think it is a sound assumption that people who play this game for almost a year now and regularly visit the forums actually are A2P (able to play).

Mostly the L2P argument is rapidly followed by the "vocal minority" argument. Which, because it is not based on a testable fact, is as useful as debating about the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Arpacolas, on 21 February 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

People have insisted that ECM is fine for 2 months now. The fact that it has already been nerfed 3 times now (TAG, PPC, module), will continue to get nerfed (according to you) and people still stick it inside anything that can carry it tells me otherwise.

Yes that is a very good indicator. As long as there is not a single RVN-3L without ECM it is clearly not balanced. (don't count mechlab bugs )

Edited by Red squirrel, 21 February 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[Pihoqahiak]

K0M3D14N, on 20 February 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

Tell me why ECM is an issue on anything but a Raven 3L or a Commando 2D. By all means, enlighten me.

Then why not allow it on any mech, like BAP?

[Abivard]

Why does the concept of skill seem to elude all the ecm whiners,
This constant claim that there should be no learning needed to play this game is ludicrous!

I have never been Killed by ECM
I have never seen ECM strip away armor
I have never had ECM stop me from firing any weapon except for a streak
I have never had ECM stop me from communicating
Rock,paper, scissors is a game infants play. and if you want TT, try MW Tactics

[Pihoqahiak]

Vassago Rain, on 20 February 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

I forgot ECM makes it impossible to dumbfire lurms into an area full of slow mechs.

When are you ever going to stop with this ludicrous, misguided (pun fully intended) argument? Anyone with a reasonable amount of experience playing this game is not going to share your absurd belief that firing LRMs without a lock at moving targets is in any way a viable, effective tactic in this game. It will result in minimal, sporadic damage for a large amount of heat and weight. It's only a tactic used out of desperation, like a Hail Mary pass in Football, or a half court shot attempt in Basketball just before the buzzer.

Edited by Pihoqahiak, 21 February 2013 - 11:48 AM.

[Abivard]

Pihoqahiak, on 21 February 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

When are you ever going to stop with this ludicrous, misguided (pun fully intended) argument? Anyone with a reasonable amount of experience playing this game is not going to share your absurd belief that firing LRMs without a lock at moving targets is in any way a viable, effective tactic in this game. It will result in minimal, sporadic damage for a large amount of heat and weight. It's only a tactic used out of desperation, like a Hail Mary pass in Football, or a half court shot attempt in Basketball just before the buzzer.

Why do y'all constantly toss out the straw man argument about Dumb-firing at a moving target at range?

[Kyone Akashi]

Abivard, on 21 February 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

Why does the concept of skill seem to elude all the ecm whiners,

What sort of "skill" does SSRM usage require, precisely? Because that's a weapon system which is currently being monopolized by ECM, and is used in conjunction with Guardian on every 'Mech that can carry it.

It's why people "whine" about 3Ls and (less extensively) 2Ds. Did you never stop to wonder why nobody is complaining about the Cicada, for example?

[Joseph Mallan]

Kyone Akashi, on 20 February 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

They can. But that's called Angel ECM, not Guardian.

"ECM" isn't a general term for some mythical device that locks down any and all electronics.
All BattleMechs have ECM and ECCM by default - you just don't realize it because it happens mostly in the background. It's an arms race, and an ECM suite needs to be sufficiently advanced to overcome the innate ECCM that are specifically designed to protect equipment from being tampered with by outside influence.

Just like you can put a Guardian suite on "disrupt" mode, if you want an ingame example from MWO.

And Angel doesn't "stop" missiles it only dumbs down Streaks to SRMs. Still doesn't affect normal missiles!