152 replies to this topic

[Tyrolus Lucien]

Well, technically, they did make substantial adjustments to weapon damage and heat generation, as well as heat dissipation to improve gameplay. Anyways, ams isn't a counter to LRMs. That's a ridiculous statement. I was here for the LRM-boatathon. I ran an atlas with 2 ams...and I'd be instagibbed shortly after walking off my base during LRMonline. Not really feasible for an atlas to deftly dodge bob and weave through terrain features to magically avoid volleys of 300+ LRMs with artemis spreads. Oh Mr. Atlas run over there behind that rock L2P assault guy.... Yeah, that was fun times. I miss it sorely, and can't wait till you forum ecm trolls bring it back. Ooohhh....the red square is up, time to hit my left mousebutton and win! Look how BA I am...

*gives the dead horse a stick to defend itself from the incoming icbm's

[8RoundsRapid]

Hey, if we can have all these techs from the future transmogrified into a tiny, inexpensive package that completely changes the underlying dynamic, why cant I have a 1.5 ton, 3 crit slot RAC? This isn't TT after all...

[K0M3D14N]

8RoundsRapid, on 20 February 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Hey, if we can have all these techs from the future transmogrified into a tiny, inexpensive package that completely changes the underlying dynamic, why cant I have a 1.5 ton, 3 crit slot RAC? This isn't TT after all...

Because you're vastly overstating ECM's strengths. ECM does not make you invincible. ECM does not give you the ability to kill people on the other team. ECM provides a necessary defense in the war of information where even glimpsing someone outside of ECM cover gives them away, no matter how far away they may be.

[Xeanth]

Teralitha, on 20 February 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

Actually most of the people that complain about ECM, use ECM, and realize how broken it is.

This topic is redundant. This version of ECM does no good for the game.

I run with ECM in my 3L..and I don't have a problem with it...in fact, when im in a non ECM mech, I know the weakness with the ECM unit, because of my experiences using it, I can easily work around anyone who equips it.

Edited by Xeanth, 20 February 2013 - 12:16 PM.

[8RoundsRapid]

K0M3D14N, on 20 February 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Because you're vastly overstating ECM's strengths. ECM does not make you invincible. ECM does not give you the ability to kill people on the other team. ECM provides a necessary defense in the war of information where even glimpsing someone outside of ECM cover gives them away, no matter how far away they may be.

I'm not vastly overstating anything. I never said ECM makes you invincible. I just asked if we're going to change the tech and timeline around, how bout throwin us some RAC's?

[Viper69]

Vassago Rain, on 20 February 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Crazy people should be labeled for what they are, so that others know who to avoid. It's worked excedingly well, even if it started out as a joke.

But not everyone who is a loon on this forum is a founder just as every non founder isnt a freeloader. So why one specific founder group do you think are crazy?

BtW i agree with you in that th OP is crazy. I just dont associate it with the icon he has next to his name. Although i think we are all a little crazy in our own way.

[ObsidianSpectre]

ECM is not fine.

Yeah, it's got a bunch of partial counters, and will probably continue to gain more and more partial counters, but I don't see this as proof that it's 'fine', I see it as proof that it's seriously borked.

Needing to add so many different partial counters against a single component is evidence of bad design. It's totally possible to get ECM balanced in this manner, but trying to do it this way is going to result in game balance that's inelegant, overly complex, and fragile, all without any real additions to game depth. Instead of trying to fix it in this labyrinthian way, they could just be doing what they should have done more than a month ago, and make the module so that it isn't so powerful that it needs layers upon layers of bandaids to keep it under control.

What's happening here is that the fixes they're adding are just bringing more of the game into orbit around ECM, as everyone has to keep looking at more ways to utilize, counter, and counter-counter ECM. It's silly to make a single component that so few mechs can use so central to the game.

I don't mean to sound too hostile towards PGI. I'm rooting for them, and a fan of their game, but they made a mistake with ECM. Hey, mistakes happen, and game design is more art than science, so I won't hold that initial mistake against them. I just wish they'd just come out and admit that it was a mistake, and give it a proper resolution instead of adding to the mess by convoluting the game design with more ways to deal with it.

Also, they wasted what could have been a really cool EMP effect from PPCs on trying to 'balance' ECMs.

[8RoundsRapid]

Or how bout Heavy Gauss Cannons that you can shoot while moving, that weigh 4 tons and take 2 crit slots? That wouldnt be OP, people would just have to l2p and adapt, right? We could put in some counters like making BAP totally disable the ability of the weapon to fire, so it'd be fair, right? Then we could add more counters to BAP, like making LRMs disable the anti-heavy gauss capabilites of BAP for say... 3 or 4 secs or so? Sounds like balance to me!

[Enig]

ObsidianSpectre, on 20 February 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

Needing to add so many different partial counters against a single component is evidence of bad design.

Everyone keeps using the word design, and I'm pretty sure it's being quite abused.

ECM is a component that only can be equipped in one out of every fifteen chassis. A rare but powerful (but not unbalanced) component should not have specific and strong counter, but rather many small counters which are latent to the function of a mech. It is good design that when you see ECM, you don't think "Well we're screwed, we don't have an ECCM 3.5A2 package equipped to our Catapult K2", you think instead: "Okay who has one of these many components equippable on all mechs which have a negative impact on that enemy ECM?"

Now seeing as how my major was in 3D Modeling, and not a throwaway degree in design, I can't objectively tell you what good design is, but I can sure as hell tell you what poor design isn't, and this friends is not poor design. This is a mechanic which requires thought and adaptation.



EDIT: 500th post, and it involved Princess Bride, I'm happy.

Edited by Enig, 20 February 2013 - 12:43 PM.

[zverofaust]

Oh look another "______ is fine" thread, I keep telling Paul PGI needs to fire all of their developers because according to Enig the game is "fine" and so needs no more work or improvements. Just fire everyone except the server maintenance people. Job's done.

[Hekalite]

The list of items that counter ECM is much shorter than the list of items that ECM counters. that's why it is cheap for 1.5- tons.

[Enig]

Hekalite, on 20 February 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

The list of items that counter ECM is much shorter than the list of items that ECM counters. that's why it is cheap for 1.5- tons.

Actually it's the same length.

PPC
TAG
And this doesn't take into account the others listed in my original post.

vs.

LRMs
SSRMs

[Fitzbattleaxe]

Hekalite, on 20 February 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

The list of items that counter ECM is much shorter than the list of items that ECM counters. that's why it is cheap for 1.5- tons.

You're forgetting to amortize that weight over all friendlies under your bubble. Per mech, it's only 0.1875 tons.

[DocBach]

Enig, on 20 February 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

Actually it's the same length.

PPC
TAG
And this doesn't take into account the others listed in my original post.

vs.

LRMs
SSRMs
Radar
Target Sharing
Various Modules
IFF

Not to mention the stuff it's suppose to block like Narc, Artemis

[Ursh]

You don't need gxp to equip ecm
You don't need an energy hardpoint to equip ecm.
You don't need to spend 6 million bills and 15000+ gxp on modules that marginally negate ECM to equip ECM.

You just need 400,000 cbills and a basic knowledge of which variant can equip it.

I've got a DDC, a Raven 3L, a Cicada 3M, and a Spider 5D. Know how much I switch the ECM between them? Never, because ECM is cheaper than quite a few weapons in the game, so I just bought a new copy for each variant that can equip it. Pretty neat right?

A fast ecm mech can be effectively invulnerable to LRM fire, while dancing around an enemy lrm boat completely preventing it from firing because it's not allowed to lock anything. The light mechs move so fast that tag doesn't work well against them at all.

Half the ECM "counters" are really only counters vs the Atlas DDC. PPCs? Don't make me laugh, any light getting tagged with ppcs consistently enough to keep their ECM locked down is going to die soon, and they're going to die the same death that any similar non-ecm light would die if getting hit with PPCs. That means it's not a real counter.

It takes zero skill to equip an ECM and enjoy the benefits, but it takes a f**king ton of cbills, gxp, and accurate shooting to counter it in a non-ecm mech.

That's why it's OP..

If you can't grasp that, I'm not going to argue with you, because it would be like arguing that the bible had zero divine inspiration to a fundamentalist christian. I can't argue with people who are incapable of seeing reason.

[Enig]

DocBach, on 20 February 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Actually it's the same length.

PPC
TAG
And this doesn't take into account the others listed in my original post.
Your eyes
Communication
Varius Modules
Damage

See how that works? You can add superfluous items to your list that have a distant relation to the argument, but that would just be silly, like this.

Edited by Enig, 20 February 2013 - 01:05 PM.

[Ransack]

Enig, on 20 February 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

ECM's counters:

• Other ECM

The only real counter for ECM. Everything else requires a hit check, ammo, or generates heat. Whereas ECM has no heat, always on, has little weight and is dirt cheap.

I'd like some of what you are smoking.

[DocBach]

Enig, on 20 February 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

See how that works? You can add superfluous items to your list that have a distant relation to the argument, but that would just be silly, like this.

Distant relation to the argument? I think you are out of touch with reality, dude. Play a match like the majority of unaffiliated players and see how detrimental ECM affects the average player. See how long a free to play game lasts if it is only tailored to high-level, competitive play. Those effects you brush off are the affects that most people have complaint with.

[Hekalite]

Enig, on 20 February 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

See how that works? You can add superfluous items to your list that have a distant relation to the argument, but that would just be silly, like this.

You are wrong. Get over yourself.

[FrostCollar]

Enig, on 20 February 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Everyone keeps using the word design, and I'm pretty sure it's being quite abused.

ECM is a component that only can be equipped in one out of every fifteen chassis.

I'm of the opinion that streaks and ECM on light mechs is the real problem, and that the solution lies in doing something to the streaks. ECM is far and away the best use for 1.5 tons and 2 crit slots on an ECM capable mech has, but I think streaks are the bigger problem.

However, this specific point bears examination. ECM can only be equipped on a few chassis. This is true. However, this doesn't account for rates of use. If ECM really was a wash, then where are the COM-1Ds and RVN-2Xs? And if they met one of their ECM carrying brethren in the field used by a pilot of the same skill, how much of a chance would they have?