22 replies to this topic

[Sprouticus]

Quote

So as most of you are aware yesterday’s rollout of Matchmaking Phase 3 ran into a couple of issues:

· The lone wolf queue time was too long
· 8 man groups were incorrectly mixing with lone wolf players

PGI,


So are 8 mans in MM phase 3 isolated like in phase 2?

How are smaller groups mixed (7 mans, 5 mans, 2 mans)?


We would like to test the operation of this tonight, but since you guys never explained how the system works, it is REALLY tough.

PS- glad you found the bugs, looking forward to playing tonight.

[Roland]

They need to get rid of the separation of 8 mans from everyone else, and instead allow folks to make groups of whatever size they want, and then match them against groups of similar size.

It is silly that even in "Phase III" of matchmaking, we still cannot form a group of 5 players.

[Ricky Cheung]

In MM phase 3, 8 mans should still be isolated just like in phase 2.
Hope this will clear some confusions.

[Splitpin]

[Sprouticus]

Ricky Cheung, on 20 February 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

In MM phase 3, 8 mans should still be isolated just like in phase 2.
Hope this will clear some confusions.

What about 7 mans, 5 mans? I didn't get a chance to test yesterday, are those even possible in MM3? Are teams limited to 2-4 & 8 still, I guess that's the real question.

(Thanks for the post )

Edited by Sprouticus, 20 February 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[Roland]

Ricky Cheung, on 20 February 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

In MM phase 3, 8 mans should still be isolated just like in phase 2.
Hope this will clear some confusions.

Given that this is the "final" phase of matchmaking, does this mean that we are never going to be able to play with a group that is between 5 and 7 pilots?

Because that's kind of garbage, dude.

[Redshift2k5]

They neversaid this was the final phase. They still have to support 12 players eventually which they said would involve 'fillnig in with solo players' so you don't have to wrangle a lumbering 12-man group

[Sprouticus]

I would not use the same language, but I agree that if the 2-4 +8 is the only groupsing that will be allowed that it is an issue PGI needs to address. When MM3 was announced, it was implied (if not stated) that the separate queues were a temporary measure.


If PGI is just being conservative about integration, I get that. But if you guys have given up completely, that is a major black eye.

(I still think the best option is to give groups an ELO bump for each member of the group. This would allow 8 mans to mainly fight other 8 and 7 mans, with the occasional really good solo to be put in to fill out the group. Which is frnakly how it SHOULD be)

[Stygimoloch]

+1

Agree that pugs shouldn't have to play against 8 man premade, or anything over a 4 man premade. That's unfair to the pug.

Disagree with the MM not letting us drop as a 5-7 man premade plus pugs against another 5-8 man plus pugs. That's not unfair to the pug and may even expose them to a type of game play they might not otherwise experience.

Only being able to drop as 2-4 or 8 has had a negative effect on the Teamspeak servers. While there are some people that only group as 4 because they do want to pugstomp, I've found in the groups I play with there's an earnest desire to drop as eight but a frustration with only getting a couple of games in per hour because there are constantly people moving in and out of the group. Someone needs to sign off, so you're at 7. Everyone PMs their buddies to see if someone can come in. No one comes, you pick up someone from the lobby and drop after ten minutes. Next game some of the buddies have shown up, now you're more than eight and some people who want to play have to sit out. Spend five minutes deciding who. People want the stranger from the lobby to leave so the friends can play so it's awkward. Lather rinse repeat. People end up sync dropping 4-mans instead which is unfair to the pugs.

[Sprouticus]

Redshift2k5, on 20 February 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

They neversaid this was the final phase. They still have to support 12 players eventually which they said would involve 'fillnig in with solo players' so you don't have to wrangle a lumbering 12-man group

I cant find the quote Red, but they DID say MM3 was the final phase. I realize that tweaks will occur, and perhaps this is on the agenda. If so fine. But they REALLY need to explain how the system works to us better.

[Roland]

The command chair post for matchmaking describes only 3 phases, culminating in phase III with Elo matchmaking.

There has never been any suggestion that some other system was going to be coming later.

So, yes, phase 3 seems to be the final phase... and if the final phase means you can only play with between 1 and 4 pilots, or exactly 8, then that is problematic for me.

I hope this is not the case, but I see no evidence to the contrary.

[Sprouticus]

PGI has been extremely closed mouth about how ELO works, and their plans for it. They DID say 12 mans would be integrated at some point, but thats all they said. Aside from that, they have not explained how it works at all.


This makes testing difficult
This makes people conclude that it is finished or close to finished
This confuses people a LOT.
They have not explained what 'prorpeties' they use (from the ELO post a few weeks back)
They have not explained how the ELO + weight class sytem works.


As a point in fact, they STILL have not explained how they envision it working for groups right now.


I get that it is a work in progress. I am NOT upset or whining. I just think PGI should be helping us understand how THEY want the system to work so we can give feedback.

[DragonsFire]

http://mwomercs.com/...evs-30-answers/

Partway down the page, it's stated that there are plans to have premade groups filled up with public players. Also addressed in here is the addition of private matches with the implementation of Community Warfare.

Roland, on 20 February 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

The command chair post for matchmaking describes only 3 phases, culminating in phase III with Elo matchmaking.

There has never been any suggestion that some other system was going to be coming later.

So, yes, phase 3 seems to be the final phase... and if the final phase means you can only play with between 1 and 4 pilots, or exactly 8, then that is problematic for me.

I hope this is not the case, but I see no evidence to the contrary.

[DragonsFire]

Sprouticus, on 20 February 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

PGI has been extremely closed mouth about how ELO works, and their plans for it. They DID say 12 mans would be integrated at some point, but thats all they said. Aside from that, they have not explained how it works at all.


This makes testing difficult
This makes people conclude that it is finished or close to finished
This confuses people a LOT.
They have not explained what 'prorpeties' they use (from the ELO post a few weeks back)
They have not explained how the ELO + weight class sytem works.


As a point in fact, they STILL have not explained how they envision it working for groups right now.


I get that it is a work in progress. I am NOT upset or whining. I just think PGI should be helping us understand how THEY want the system to work so we can give feedback.

Unfortunately in a matchmaking system, user provided feedback can be akin to eyewitness testimony, ie - sometimes informative but often unreliable.

They do have telemetry set up to gather data and make balancing and tuning decisions based upon that data.

I imagine that they will eventually give us some further details on the system, but that would likely only come after it has been completed. Further, I don't know that they would give us all of the details in order to potentially protect the integrity of the matchmaker. As with anything, if details on a mechanic are posted, there are people out there who will use those details to game the system, for no other reason than it's there to do.

Edited by DragonsFire, 20 February 2013 - 02:19 PM.

[Paul Inouye]

Teams are still limited to 2-4, then 8v8's. There is no launching a 5-7 player group.

Elo is just trying to make sure the pairings are done on a relatively even skill level. There is a new post in Announcements describing the Hot Fix/Update.

[Roland]

Paul Inouye, on 20 February 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Teams are still limited to 2-4, then 8v8's. There is no launching a 5-7 player group.

Elo is just trying to make sure the pairings are done on a relatively even skill level. There is a new post in Announcements describing the Hot Fix/Update.

Are we ever going to be able to make lances of 5-7 people, Paul?

[Mackman]

Can you guys imagine being that lone player in a group with 7 premades? With four other ppl not in the group, it makes sense for premades to communicate with everyone else via chat... any more, and it would completely suck to just happen to be placed in those groups. I'd bet that has a lot to do with their decision.

[FactorlanP]

Paul Inouye, on 20 February 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Teams are still limited to 2-4, then 8v8's. There is no launching a 5-7 player group.

Elo is just trying to make sure the pairings are done on a relatively even skill level. There is a new post in Announcements describing the Hot Fix/Update.

The big question that the competitive groups want to know... Is the system applying ELO in the 8vs8 pairings?

[Sprouticus]

Mackman, on 20 February 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

Can you guys imagine being that lone player in a group with 7 premades? With four other ppl not in the group, it makes sense for premades to communicate with everyone else via chat... any more, and it would completely suck to just happen to be placed in those groups. I'd bet that has a lot to do with their decision.

I disagree. I would much rather drop with 7 +1 pug and send him orders on chat than deal with 4 pugs. And I would much rather be dropped into a 8v7 and ask for orders than try to coordinate with a 4 man group. If Im the solo pug, I can quickly explain my loadout and let their DC tell me what to do & who to follow.

Paul Inouye, on 20 February 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Teams are still limited to 2-4, then 8v8's. There is no launching a 5-7 player group.

Elo is just trying to make sure the pairings are done on a relatively even skill level. There is a new post in Announcements describing the Hot Fix/Update.

Thanks for the reply Paul.

Can you give us an idea of how you expect MM3 to evolve over time? Will it always be 1-4+8?

Edited by Sprouticus, 20 February 2013 - 02:29 PM.

[Roland]

Mackman, on 20 February 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

Can you guys imagine being that lone player in a group with 7 premades? With four other ppl not in the group, it makes sense for premades to communicate with everyone else via chat... any more, and it would completely suck to just happen to be placed in those groups. I'd bet that has a lot to do with their decision.

Eh, we did this all the time in MW4. You'd go onto some unit's server, and they might only have 7 or so of them on, so some rabble would get paired with them... Or on our server, we'd have some rabble fight with us.

Honestly, it's not a bad experience at all. You just stick with the group. While you may not be privy to everything that is going on with their comms, you get the benefit of playing with an organized group. It's also useful for saying, "Hmm, I should contact those guys cause I kind of liked playing with them there."

You seem to think that being the one guy on the team would somehow be bad for you, but I don't see how that could possibly be the case. I mean, what do you think about that situation is going to be worse for you? That your team will be disturbingly effective compared to what you are used to?