122 replies to this topic

[Zeroskills]

Megachromulent, on 20 February 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

So you agree that "RANDOM MAPS DO NOTHING TO PROTECT AGAINST CHEESE BUILDS OR CHEESE TACTICS".... soooooo WHY do people use this as the one single reason to deny other players a choice in which maps they want to play?

Because my chance of getting Alpine is so low random maps don't do anything yet to stop me from running my splatcat, but if we get 2 or 3 more maps the size of Alpine I will start to think about throwing some LRMs on my A1.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Megachromulent, on 20 February 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

So you agree that "RANDOM MAPS DO NOTHING TO PROTECT AGAINST CHEESE BUILDS OR CHEESE TACTICS".... soooooo WHY do people use this as the one single reason to deny other players a choice in which maps they want to play?

ummmmmm things might get WORSE! at the moment cheese builds will have a place NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS! giving people the choice of map will mean they can defenately optimise for the fighting style the terrain most favors such as close range in rivercity etc etc. you do understand diversity on the field would be WORSE if this were to happen!?

makes important words bigger since that's the only way messages get across according to this guy.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 20 February 2013 - 10:05 PM.

[Megacromulent]

Davers, on 20 February 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

Why does it always seem you are twisting my words to suit your arguments?

What I am saying is that the maps we had before Alpine favored short range builds.

Ok, so you are saying "maps we had before Alpine favored short range builds", how does this apply to the OP's point of "choosing the map you want to play"?

What if I only want to play Alpine? Or just River City Night? What is wrong with that?

Does having a splat cat on those maps if I chose the map any different than if I end up there randomly?

[Megacromulent]

GalaxyBluestar, on 20 February 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

ummmmmm things might get WORSE! at the moment cheese builds will have a place NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS! giving people the choice of map will mean they can defenately optimise for the fighting style the terrain most favors such as close range in rivercity etc etc. you do understand diversity on the field would be WORSE if this were to happen!?

makes important words bigger since that's the only way messages get across according to this guy.

Now we from "it will get worse" to it "might" get worse... Are you no longer certain? Because I know that any build can find the right tactic on any map, and that choosing one map over another is irrelavant to cheese builds, entirely.

Here's why: Take river city, you call this a "close range" optimized map, but it's not anymore. People have found how to use LRMs to demoltion the opposition (hide behind the penisula), this is no longer a close range map only.

People will find a way to make their builds work, no matter what. So again, what _evidence_ to have that choosing maps will cause cheese builds only on those maps? (so far no one has presented any, just QQing against the idea)

[GalaxyBluestar]

Megachromulent, on 20 February 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

Now we from "it will get worse" to it "might" get worse... Are you no longer certain? Because I know that any build can find the right tactic on any map, and that choosing one map over another is irrelavant to cheese builds, entirely.

Here's why: Take river city, you call this a "close range" optimized map, but it's not anymore. People have found how to use LRMs to demoltion the opposition (hide behind the penisula), this is no longer a close range map only.

People will find a way to make their builds work, no matter what. So again, what _evidence_ to have that choosing maps will cause cheese builds only on those maps? (so far no one has presented any, just QQing against the idea)

well since you're set in your vision for this feature i'm just wondering what are you going to do?

river city favors brawl play not exclusively but you have an advantage stacking close range there. now when you choose it you'll find everyone else has gone for the easy street and they'll hunt in packs, you will regret using other ranged weapons.

alpine favours lrms and snipers, people will want that edge to destroy anything that comes to close and so they'll field them given the map choice they would have. you certainly can't flank in such an open space but hope you can make some quick movements up and down the mountain for cover.

so are you going to go threw the pain of learning how to make something else work? no you will join the gang that owns the place just as jenners did with lagshield just as streak cats did and so on and so on.. chosing maps means fotm no longer lasts a month it becomes synonymous with the map. why would you field a hunchback when trebuchet works the alpin better? why would you field an awesome there when stalkers are better? for rivercity awesomes and hunchbacks become favoured over stalkers and trebuchet. you can see this effect with stock mechs vs custom, who runs stock when it's easier to customise?

you're right i shouldn't have used might, i know choosing maps will degenerate the gameplay. further than any worries cheese will ever bring.

evidence?

Zeroskills, on 20 February 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

Because my chance of getting Alpine is so low random maps don't do anything yet to stop me from running my splatcat, but if we get 2 or 3 more maps the size of Alpine I will start to think about throwing some LRMs on my A1.

someone too lazy to change and wants to be a splat cat forever, and he will if he can choose the maps he wants for ultimate home court advantage. that's what will happen, no srm boats on maps like alpine all of them in frozen and river city going against the same. see how flawed it would be?

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 21 February 2013 - 12:30 AM.

[Megacromulent]

All arguments against choosing maps so far have contradicted themselves:

GalaxyBluestar, on 21 February 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

well since you're set in your vision for this feature i'm just wondering what are you going to do?

Play the new map first! (weird idea huh?) Instead of _not_ playing it (30+ games, not once on Alpine)

GalaxyBluestar, on 21 February 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

river city favors brawl play not exclusively but you have an advantage stacking close range there. now when you choose it you'll find everyone else has gone for the easy street and they'll hunt in packs, you will regret using other ranged weapons.

First contradiction, everyone runs in packs _now_. Everyone uses close range weapons now. But guess what? Every other death on river city tonight has been from LRMs while I was engaged in close combat with other mechs. Again, ALL of the evidence flies in the face of your arguments. Half of this map is wide open over water...

GalaxyBluestar, on 21 February 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

alpine favours lrms and snipers, people will want that edge to destroy anything that comes to close and so they'll field them given the map choice they would have. you certainly can't flank in such an open space but hope you can make some quick movements up and down the mountain for cover.

Makes sense... you think to make game play even we should "accidently" pop into these maps half prepared? lol, I run long and short ranged all the time, why? Because no matter what map you are on (ALL OF THEM) you end up engaging at all ranges.

Name one map that is all medium, short or long range? Any? Alpine maybe, but none of the others.

GalaxyBluestar, on 21 February 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

so are you going to go threw the pain of learning how to make something else work? no you will join the gang that owns the place just as jenners did with lagshield just as streak cats did and so on and so on.. chosing maps means fotm no longer lasts a month it becomes synonymous with the map. why would you field a hunchback when trebuchet works the alpin better? why would you field an awesome there when stalkers are better? for rivercity awesomes and hunchbacks become favoured over stalkers and trebuchet. you can see this effect with stock mechs vs custom, who runs stock when it's easier to customise?

Total bunk, go play, there are the same mix as always... just plain silliness... Stock suck everywhere, I don't boat, and stock suck. (Raven 3l comes stock with narc and tag, lol, not a valid argument)

GalaxyBluestar, on 21 February 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

you're right i shouldn't have used might, i know choosing maps will degenerate the gameplay. further than any worries cheese will ever bring.

evidence?


someone too lazy to change and wants to be a splat cat forever, and he will if he can choose the maps he wants for ultimate home court advantage. that's what will happen, no srm boats on maps like alpine all of them in frozen and river city going against the same. see how flawed it would be?

Wow, let him have a splat cat!!! Are you such a poor pilot you can't beat a splat cat? I haven't been killed by one of those for a few weeks... Why? Cause I know their range, I see A1 in the read out, they have no LRMs firing, then stay 270m out. If you can't do that, I see why you are so against choosing maps, you are actually the cheese build player, and don't want to face other splat cats only. LOL. Why'd it take me so long to see this?

[One Medic Army]

Megachromulent, on 21 February 2013 - 01:19 AM, said:

Stuff

I'd argue with you, but it's like beating my head against a wall.
I've grown tired of the squishy sound.

[aptest]

Phrenologer, on 20 February 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

I don't think selecting maps is a good idea. Puts us right back to the realm of super specialized mechs.

y is that a bad thing?

[Megacromulent]

One Medic Army, on 21 February 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

I'd argue with you, but it's like beating my head against a wall.
I've grown tired of the squishy sound.

It's not surprising, the sum up everyones arguments against choosing your own maps:
"It will be worse for me!! QQ!! So you can't have it!"

[One Medic Army]

Megachromulent, on 21 February 2013 - 01:29 AM, said:

It's not surprising, the sum up everyones arguments against choosing your own maps:
"It will be worse for me!! QQ!! So you can't have it!"

If that's the only argument you heard then I feel sorry for you.

[Nicholai Matowski]

GalaxyBluestar, on 21 February 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

well since you're set in your vision for this feature i'm just wondering what are you going to do?

river city favors brawl play not exclusively but you have an advantage stacking close range there. now when you choose it you'll find everyone else has gone for the easy street and they'll hunt in packs, you will regret using other ranged weapons.

alpine favours lrms and snipers, people will want that edge to destroy anything that comes to close and so they'll field them given the map choice they would have. you certainly can't flank in such an open space but hope you can make some quick movements up and down the mountain for cover.

so are you going to go threw the pain of learning how to make something else work? no you will join the gang that owns the place just as jenners did with lagshield just as streak cats did and so on and so on.. chosing maps means fotm no longer lasts a month it becomes synonymous with the map. why would you field a hunchback when trebuchet works the alpin better? why would you field an awesome there when stalkers are better? for rivercity awesomes and hunchbacks become favoured over stalkers and trebuchet. you can see this effect with stock mechs vs custom, who runs stock when it's easier to customise?

you're right i shouldn't have used might, i know choosing maps will degenerate the gameplay. further than any worries cheese will ever bring.

evidence?



someone too lazy to change and wants to be a splat cat forever, and he will if he can choose the maps he wants for ultimate home court advantage. that's what will happen, no srm boats on maps like alpine all of them in frozen and river city going against the same. see how flawed it would be?

Well, i know that i can have my teammates stand on base, behind peninsula, or back on 3 line in river city, and rain lrm's all day long. The only place they aren't effective is lower city.

As for your final line? as it is, why would that be bad? Let the splatcats have fun all day long on frozen city. keeps them away from the rest of us, doesn't it?

[GalaxyBluestar]

Nicholai Matowski, on 21 February 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

As for your final line? as it is, why would that be bad? Let the splatcats have fun all day long on frozen city. keeps them away from the rest of us, doesn't it?

so you'd have to be one to be effective against repeatative smothering on that map? great idea.

Megachromulent, on 21 February 2013 - 01:29 AM, said:

It's not surprising, the sum up everyones arguments against choosing your own maps:
"It will be worse for me!! QQ!! So you can't have it!"

why do you want it so bad? is it so terrible that you're speciallist build lands on the map you don't want? i thought you could handle all that managing stuff, that's your claim anyway. are you such a pouty little child that you have to scream on forums NEW MAP I WANT NEW MAP NOW!

Quote

First contradiction, everyone runs in packs _now_. Everyone uses close range weapons now. But guess what? Every other death on river city tonight has been from LRMs while I was engaged in close combat with other mechs. Again, ALL of the evidence flies in the face of your arguments. Half of this map is wide open over water...

and losers get killed by lrm's traveling in the open water so they avoid the water duh! we are supposed to be talking about good play, bad players learn not to do it again and join the teamates behind the cathedral or go to upper city to brawl. there's no way you can make your argument valid on people being idiots. cause the uber builds using only the map that favors them will be players with some sense ie; the growing majority.

Quote

Name one map that is all medium, short or long range? Any? Alpine maybe, but none of the others.

caustic favours long range and everyone knows it, alpine has joined that leuge of distant standoffs. the city maps favour closerange cause sneaking around corners and cover is imense!

Quote

Wow, let him have a splat cat!!! Are you such a poor pilot you can't beat a splat cat? I haven't been killed by one of those for a few weeks... Why? Cause I know their range, I see A1 in the read out, they have no LRMs firing, then stay 270m out. If you can't do that, I see why you are so against choosing maps, you are actually the cheese build player, and don't want to face other splat cats only. LOL. Why'd it take me so long to see this?

a fellow named connorsinclair would kill you for saying that cause i'm actually against his nerf the a1 campaign.

you seriously need to: do some research
talk to many more players about this to understand if you're justified in believing your ideas are sound
make a poll for or against map selection to get some real numbers
whine some more at the devs and other people cause they don't see thing your way. you'll get far doing it

[Asmudius Heng]

miscreant, on 20 February 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

Sounds like some people are making stuff up to defend a poor decision by PGI.

PGI has made some poor design decisions yes - but not random maps or larger maps.

[miscreant]

Everybody is so worried about what might happen, you refuse to see the benefits of choosing a map to play on.

If you KNOW what map you'll be playing on, then choose the mech that suits you. Otherwise, don't....

?

You guys are making it so difficult to make this game something amazing with all of your concerns with what might happen. This game has potential, but it cannot get better unless there are user-changeable options for each match.

Asmudius Heng, on 21 February 2013 - 02:17 AM, said:

PGI has made some poor design decisions yes - but not random maps or larger maps.

Larger maps are great. I didn't say anything about larger maps.

[Nicholai Matowski]

GalaxyBluestar, on 21 February 2013 - 01:48 AM, said:

so you'd have to be one to be effective against repeatative smothering on that map? great idea.

why do you want it so bad? is it so terrible that you're speciallist build lands on the map you don't want? i thought you could handle all that managing stuff, that's your claim anyway. are you such a pouty little child that you have to scream on forums NEW MAP I WANT NEW MAP NOW!

In reply to your response to me? If I am a merc, which if you look up at the url MWO is apparently very much about, then I am going to take the contracts where I am the most effective. Furthermore, if I am best prepared for a map? Then my employer will be even more happy. So, it seems that your argument is fallacious, as most likely everyone who drops on Frozen City will be suitably outfitted for Frozen city. Thus, splat cat's would have extremely diminishing returns.

As for the question of why someone is so for it? I have a better question: Why are you so against it? Are you afraid that in your 'High Efficiency' (aka Cheese) build, that you will face someone who is outfitted just as efficiently as you are?

Rather than attempting to burn everyone down with your flames, maybe you could think a moment, or sleep on it, like I did.

So, people want to choose their drops, and there is a crowd saying it will ruin the game. How about this?

Ready window has 4 mech slots. You lock your 4 mechs of choice into those slots. Then, you click launch. 3 randomly selected map options are presented to you, and you choose your map from those 3, as well as the mech you are going to take in. Confirm said option, and bingo bango! you are launched into a Deathmatch.

What? No such thing as a deathmatch? Well, now we have the impetus for it. If you are a High Efficiency Merchant of Death, then you shouldn't need any form of alternative win method other than "kill the enemy".

What's that you say? What are lights to do when the rest of their team goes down? Dunno. Seems that that is something you should have thought of before you signed on the dotted line.

As an aside, if you lose, you get more than when you normally lose. If you win, you win a bit more than you normally would win. Maybe twice as much in both instances.

There. Every possible problem solved that I can see.

Also, this would be when PGI should think about putting in team mate booting, to get the cbill farmers out of these High Efficiency Matches

[Ngamok]

I hope not. Otherwise de_Dust - Nuketown 24/7

[General Taskeen]

So people that select random, who would only go up against other people that select random, would be upset about other people playing on one specific map with other people that select the same map? Sounds kind of selfish to me to prevent people from playing how they want. Like kids being mad about another group of kids having fun playing a different game.

[Larth]

There are points to be had by both sides. So I'll give a screwy example/what if scenario.

Your being dropped to a planet to take on a force near a base in the mountains with winding canyons and such. So your thing it's colder, hotter weapons and possibly long fields of fire. You go in all set up for that battle and your golden, you win the day. Or perhaps you were the defenders and set the same way, point is you won. Over the comm, you get a message stating another force is heading in right towards a town in the forest at the foot of the mountains. Your the closest force, you have a day maybe to repair/refit and get there to defend the town. The forest is going to limit your vision but you only have a day to do everything...not enough time to reconfigure a non Omni mech. Next fight, your screwed.

Similar things happen in modern warfare. Sometimes the optimal geared group is NOT the closest or the one that can make it in time.

[miscreant]

Larth, on 21 February 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

There are points to be had by both sides. So I'll give a screwy example/what if scenario.

Your being dropped to a planet to take on a force near a base in the mountains with winding canyons and such. So your thing it's colder, hotter weapons and possibly long fields of fire. You go in all set up for that battle and your golden, you win the day. Or perhaps you were the defenders and set the same way, point is you won. Over the comm, you get a message stating another force is heading in right towards a town in the forest at the foot of the mountains. Your the closest force, you have a day maybe to repair/refit and get there to defend the town. The forest is going to limit your vision but you only have a day to do everything...not enough time to reconfigure a non Omni mech. Next fight, your screwed.

Similar things happen in modern warfare. Sometimes the optimal geared group is NOT the closest or the one that can make it in time.

OH GOD. Now they are making up stories to argue against selecting maps.

WOW.

Edited by miscreant, 21 February 2013 - 01:59 PM.

[One Medic Army]

General Taskeen, on 21 February 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

So people that select random, who would only go up against other people that select random, would be upset about other people playing on one specific map with other people that select the same map? Sounds kind of selfish to me to prevent people from playing how they want. Like kids being mad about another group of kids having fun playing a different game.

If it was a separate queue entirely I wouldn't mind, except it's splitting the player base and making it harder for everyone to find matches.
That and adding these things would take time away from the group that's probably working on Community Warfare.