19 replies to this topic

[Elwood Blues]

Since we now have a map that is drastically different in terms of strategy, it is time for us to be able to know the map before we select the mech. Random, blind, dropping results in most preparing for short range maps and base camping for most of Alpine Peaks if they happen to pull it.

Knowing the map where the player is dropping will also encourage players to have map specific mech configurations. I think most of us always figured this would be a part of the game at some point. This just isn't a blind drop sort of game. Feeling like you are prepared for a map also makes you feel less like you just got screwed by the map selection.

Before dropping, each player can select a weight class of mech to play so matching still can occur appropriately. Don't paint yourselves into a corner by investing too much matchmaking development time around blind drops.

Blind dropping just cannot be in the future of MWO. It reduces the mechs that people feel they actually need (not something that PGI would want) and reduces build variety. I heavily encourage PGI to make this change sooner rather than later. You'll actually sell more mechs faster to new players, more variety will be seen in mech configurations, and people will not feel screwed by random chance.

[Mechteric]

http://mwomercs.com/...ch-for-the-map/
http://mwomercs.com/...mech-selection/



the answer lies here:
http://mwomercs.com/...alanced-builds/

[Max Liao]

Elwood Blues, on 21 February 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

Since we now have a map that is drastically different in terms of strategy, it is time for us to be able to know the map before we select the mech. Random, blind, dropping results in most preparing for short range maps and base camping for most of Alpine Peaks if they happen to pull it.

When they add more long range maps this may change.

Elwood Blues, on 21 February 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

Knowing the map where the player is dropping will also encourage players to have map specific mech configurations. I think most of us always figured this would be a part of the game at some point. This just isn't a blind drop sort of game. Feeling like you are prepared for a map also makes you feel less like you just got screwed by the map selection.

OmniMechs (when implemented) should get this option to modify loadouts before the start of the match, but not BattleMechs.

Elwood Blues, on 21 February 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

Before dropping, each player can select a weight class of mech to play so matching still can occur appropriately. Don't paint yourselves into a corner by investing too much matchmaking development time around blind drops.

Blind drops a 100% appropriate to BT lore and canon; which is the basis for this pseudo-simulator.

Elwood Blues, on 21 February 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

Blind dropping just cannot be in the future of MWO. It reduces the mechs that people feel they actually need (not something that PGI would want) and reduces build variety. I heavily encourage PGI to make this change sooner rather than later. You'll actually sell more mechs faster to new players, more variety will be seen in mech configurations, and people will not feel screwed by random chance.

Blind dropping SHOULD be the future of MWO - outside of Omins and Solaris matches. People are going to play what they want, but it will encourage the average player into more balanced designs; or into more tactical thinking.

You may be right, but I don't think so. I believe that allowing players to determine loadout prior to dropping will sell more 'Mechs. It'll sell two 'Mechs - short range burst DPS and long range missile/ERPPC boats.

Embrace the unknown!

/veto to your idea.

[focuspark]

there is also the fact that this is beta and devs need to control which mechs and weapons drop on which maps vs other mechs with specific weapons... in order to get data to balance stuff.

If players could pick, devs would not get the data they need before launch.

[Peter Thorndyke IV]

Talking Canon on that part,

we are here still playing NON OMNI-MECHS = a pretty much fixed Loadout
though i really like it beeing able to modify my mech, it in terms of canon gives almost too much freedom to players.

If we take in concideration that replacing a Weapon (same type just getting the broken out and replacing it with a new one of the same type) takes somewhere between 2,5h to 5h, multiply that with your weapons loadout, multiply it by 3 - 10 depending on the ammount of modification away from the original chasis, and you will easily come down arround a Week of work for modifying your loadout.

Max Liao, on 21 February 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

OmniMechs (when implemented) should get this option to modify loadouts before the start of the match, but not BattleMechs.

I completly agree with Max (wait a second, i really agree with Max Liao, omg )

That is the real advantage of an omnimech, the adaptability due to the modular layout.

[HammerSwarm]

Max Liao, on 21 February 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

/veto to your idea.

What he said. The cure to splat cars is long range damage.

[miscreant]

Agree with OP 100%.

Matchmaking is console-game style gaming anyways, so it would great to select maps and setup matches against other teams.

focuspark, on 21 February 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

there is also the fact that this is beta and devs need to control which mechs and weapons drop on which maps vs other mechs with specific weapons... in order to get data to balance stuff.

If players could pick, devs would not get the data they need before launch.

Wow....Now I've heard it all. Wow.

[iminbagdad]

Yeah I imagine you having 2 mechs in your garage. A splatcat and a 6 ppc stalker.

No. I welcome the random drops.

[miscreant]

It's obvious now, the devs didn't destroy this game, you BT purists did.

It's a game, and it should be fun and balanced, but damn... You people are overly concerned about what could happen, you fail to see the benefits of map selection.

I'm also beginning to think you people just want to disagree for the sake of disagreeing, arguing is your game, not MWO.

[iminbagdad]

Then what's the benefit?

[focuspark]

miscreant, on 21 February 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

Wow....Now I've heard it all. Wow.

Do you disagree that this is beta? Do you disagree that beta is about collecting usage data? Do you disagree that if you allow players to select the maps that they will optimize for the maps they like best and, for example, devs won't get data on SL builds on Alpine?

[Adridos]

miscreant, on 21 February 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

It's obvious now, the devs didn't destroy this game, you BT purists did.

What does a game design decision have to do with being a fan for ****'s sake!?

We support a mechanic that actively punishes things that actively destroy a feature of the game (customisability) and are therefore harmful to the game's future. When you can hoose the map you go on, you can also prepeare a perfect build for that map (perfect example is the 3L+D-DC syndrome 8-mans have had) and any guy who doesn't want to be disadvantaged uses that specific build, which means the customisation in the game is actively repressed/demolished.

[jay35]

All blind drops do is reduce the viability and diversity of builds until it boils down to everyone taking a handful of very similar loadouts that are the only ones that work across all maps, and thus results in a limited, more generic experience that does not make full use of the vast assortment of builds that can be purpose-built for specific environments or climates.

Make no mistake: Blind drops reduce, not expand, the strategy and diversity in gameplay.

This is why all past MechWarrior games determine the map before determining which mech you take. You choose the mech, the loadout, and the camo that is most appropriate for each environment. Yep, you have to actually put some thought into it.

In fact, nearly all FPS games work this way, because it actually makes sense and is how warfare works.

It is one small area where going against canon can make for a vastly superior user experience.

Random drops is also the byproduct of laziness, both in design and in players.

Lazy design, because it's easier to code than a proper lobby match creation interface.

Lazy players, because some hate to be bothered to figure out how to build appropriately for each environment and just want one "safe" build so they can mindlessly click Launch without any thought involved.

The diversity in climates and terrain is a cornerstone of MechWarrior games. It drives the need for diversity in builds, thoughtful pre-planning strategy, and puts a use to heat management and camo types, all of which this game with its random drops is currently contradicting.

Edited by jay35, 21 February 2013 - 09:48 AM.

[Max Liao]

miscreant, on 21 February 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

It's a game, and it should be fun and balanced, but damn... You people are overly concerned about what could happen, you fail to see the benefits of map selection.

It's a game based on an established IP. Stick true to the IP or create your own game. I probably wouldn't complain about 75% of the crap the devs have done if this game was called "Big Stompy Internet Robots Online." But then I'd still be waiting for a MechWarrior title ... I guess, much like I am right now.

[iminbagdad]

jay35, on 21 February 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

All blind drops do is reduce the viability and diversity of builds until it boils down to everyone taking a handful of very similar loadouts that are the only ones that work across all maps, and thus results in a limited, more generic experience that does not make full use of the vast assortment of builds that can be purpose-built for specific environments or climates.

Make no mistake: Blind drops reduce, not expand, the strategy and diversity in gameplay.

This is why all past MechWarrior games determine the map before determining which mech you take. You choose the mech, the loadout, and the camo that is most appropriate for each environment. Yep, you have to actually put some thought into it.

In fact, nearly all FPS games work this way, because it actually makes sense and is how warfare works.

It is one small area where going against canon can make for a vastly superior user experience.

Random drops is also the byproduct of laziness, both in design and in players.

Lazy design, because it's easier to code than a proper lobby match creation interface.

Lazy players, because some hate to be bothered to figure out how to build appropriately for each environment and just want one "safe" build so they can mindlessly click Launch without any thought involved.

So knowing weather to take a splatcat or ppc stalker makes you less lazy then people trying to optimize builds for all engagements?

[jay35]

That strawman has been put to rest. When everyone has an equal opportunity to properly prepare for the map, strategy and tactics blossom. When players are forced to take a generic build across all maps, diversity and putting some thought into proper planning is removed, not to mention camo is rendered non-functional, and it's quite clear where the real laziness is.

If you insist on further strawmen, I'll just have to respond with, "Stop being lazy.", because that's really what a desire for random drops comes down to: Laziness.

Edited by jay35, 21 February 2013 - 10:01 AM.

[Bobzilla]

Blind drops cause build veritiy.

jay35, on 21 February 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

All blind drops do is reduce the viability and diversity of builds until it boils down to everyone taking a handful of very similar loadouts that are the only ones that work across all maps, and thus results in a limited, more generic experience that does not make full use of the vast assortment of builds that can be purpose-built for specific environments or climates.

Make no mistake: Blind drops reduce, not expand, the strategy and diversity in gameplay.

This is why all past MechWarrior games determine the map before determining which mech you take. You choose the mech, the loadout, and the camo that is most appropriate for each environment. Yep, you have to actually put some thought into it.

In fact, nearly all FPS games work this way, because it actually makes sense and is how warfare works.

It is one small area where going against canon can make for a vastly superior user experience.

Random drops is also the byproduct of laziness, both in design and in players.

Lazy design, because it's easier to code than a proper lobby match creation interface.

Lazy players, because some hate to be bothered to figure out how to build appropriately for each environment and just want one "safe" build so they can mindlessly click Launch without any thought involved.

The diversity in climates and terrain is a cornerstone of MechWarrior games. It drives the need for diversity in builds, thoughtful pre-planning strategy, and puts a use to heat management and camo types, all of which this game with its random drops is currently contradicting.

Why would people all pick the same load-out for all maps but not the same load-outs for a spacific map? Thats just silly. Blind drops will have the more diversity in builds because you don't know what your going to need. If everyone knows they are dropping on a large map they are all going to take long range builds, if everyone knows they are dropping on a small map they are all going to take short range builds. Most of the maps we've had up to this point have been small maps with lots of cover and the game mostly turned into a rush and brawl.

I also don't see how blind drops reduce stratigy, if anything it causes you to use more as your not spacificly design to perform a certain stratigy on a certain map.

There is less thought in building a mech for a spacific map than one that will perform well on all maps.

There is less stratigy in using a build for a spacific map than using a mech that may not be perfect for that map.

Lets face it, LRM boats would be all you would see in alpine, guass boats in caustic.....

[Death Mallet]

Absolutely not. Worst idea ever.

Suck it up and build mech designs that are actually flexible and able to handle a variety of situations instead of gimmicky, rules exploiting 1 trick ponies.

[Adridos]

jay35, on 21 February 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

That strawman has been put to rest. When everyone has an equal opportunity to properly prepare for the map, strategy and tactics blossom. When players are forced to take a generic build across all maps, diversity and putting some thought into proper planning is removed, not to mention camo is rendered non-functional, and it's quite clear where the real laziness is.

OK... pal.

We have Splatcats, Gausscats, 6PPC Stalkers, 6SL Jenners, Lunchbacks, SSRM 3Ls and a few other builds as a proof that when people know what is going to happen, they will simply erase every other mech out of existence (and a lot of these were really teh only choice when it came to dropping in a mech of that class).

How can you prove, that when put in an unstable enviroment, where exists no optimal build (face it, whatever you do, there is always going to be a guy better than you in X area, becuase of the sacrifice he'd made in the Y area, but his luck didn't fail him) as per actual rules of logic, can we get to a pont that creates a homonegous enviroment?

[BallSabre]

Finally a big map.



But it really is a problem as well.

I made a suggestion about a similar system a long while a do, during the closed beta and most people just scoffed down their nose. The joke is on them now I guess.

Since everyone is worried about weight class and such we cant really allow people to choose mechs when the map is desided, but we can allow a mech to have an x number of CONFIGURATION SLOTS.

How would this work then?

Currently if you make a mech in mechlab it will have that one locked build and if you want something different you have to over ride it. I think we should be able to save different builds for a chassis, kind of like templates so you remember that one magical build that you made.

this would allow you to choose between these setups before the drop to the map. It wouldn't change MM's weight classes but it would allow some adaption for every map.

Example.

You buy mech X
mech X has two loadout/configuration slots (use real money to buy more ), So Mech X 1&2
In the mech lab you turn mech X1 into an LRM build and mech X2 into a shotgun brawler.
you press "ready/launch"
MM makes a team and desides map.
you load the map and then are presented with a choice, mech X1 or X2?
play game and be happy.