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Unraveling The Ecm Issue.


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#1 SlXSlXSlX

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 12:43 AM

I think to constructively discuss ECM we need to understand the issue. I have compiled 4 lists of data based on extensive research.

Weapons ECM stops without a counter.

LRM 5
LRM 10 (tbh im not sure if there is an LRM 10, I truely never look at the LRMs)
LRM 15
LRM 20
SSRM
Radar (didn't know this was a weapon)

Weapons ECM does not counter.

AC2
AC5
UAC5
AC10
AC20
SL
SPL
ML
MPL
LL
LPL
ERLL
PPC
ERPPC
SRM
My eyeballs when I use heat vision

Counters to ECM

Tag
PPC
Death
ECM- Disrupt

Weapons ECM counters despite application of counter ECM measures

(Someitmes a few of teh counters dont work, or require aiming skills/certain distances to apply them. So I will add "ineptitude".)

- Inept usage of counter measures available.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Now im no BT expert (not much for star based novels with giant alien birds), so you will have to excuse me if my results are partial/incorrect... but I think I got it about right.

Did I miss anything?

Provided the list is right, I think we can constructively discuss how wonderful/or terrible ECM is now.

So.... What do you think?

XD

(Updated for DocBach)

Doc, I was trying to go based on mechanics. If you dont want to type to your team to get intel, and wish to solely rely on in game data feed, that is your folly.

Note: Unless someone explains otherwise how do modules come into play??

What is IFF... seriously break it down for us non BT'ers.

Edited by SlXSlXSlX, 23 February 2013 - 01:23 AM.


#2 DocBach

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 12:45 AM

You broke the autocannons into subcategories to make the list it doesn't affect longer, while condensed the various classes of LRM's into one. You also didn't include any of the modules, other equipment, IFF, or radar, target information, or the fact that it's more effective at anti-missile than AMS and doesn't require ammo, either.

Edited by DocBach, 23 February 2013 - 12:57 AM.


#3 Critical Fumble

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 12:55 AM

Doesn't ECM keep you from getting any benefit from TAG while under the bubble - meaning no SSRM+TAG from within the bubble, as well as no LRM+TAG on targets outside the bubble?

Really, though, PGI hasn't taken it far enough. They need another ECM system for energy weapons, and another for ballistics! Then we'll be playing Pokemon - but with GIANT ROBOTS! HECK YEAH!

#4 SlXSlXSlX

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 12:57 AM

That your even familiar enough with Pokemon to reference it, is sad.

Its yellow isnt it. I saw one on a commercial once.

#5 hashinshin

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 01:00 AM

ECM HARD ******* COUNTERS what it counters for 2 tons, where as anything that ECM is countered by is an incredibly soft counter. TAG is 100% unreliable since even a second of being off target means all missile de-lock. PPCs are maybe 50% reliable sinceif you miss a volley or overheat (which will happen with PPCs) and have to stop firing the missiles de-lock. NARC is still MORE WEIGHT and LOW RANGE and AMMO BASED.

HARD ******* COUNTERED is a big difference from "this might sometimes work, but probably not."

#6 TrickyGilligan

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 01:02 AM

NARC is completely countered by ECM, not the other way around.

Also, you list ECM as a counter to ECM. While this is true, the obvious solution is just to field nothing but ECM mechs. Doesn't really make it a "counter" at that point.

#7 SlXSlXSlX

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 01:17 AM

ECM does counter ecm, thats why it is on that list. Good news its only 2 lbs, and costs a pittance. I run a 4x, a phract 3d, a dragon w 2 ac5s and a ac2, a gauss cat, and an srm cat. None of these carry ecm, and yet I can still counter it. Why? Because there is more on teh counter list than ecm. ECM only counters ECM from what range? My gauss counter ecm, via the death counter, from much further out.

Are the only people that want to discuss ECM, the people that cant seem to figure out how to counter ecm?

PS.. the use of caps lock does not help you make your point, it makes people glaze past your post without readng it.

A counter is a counter, your gonna hafta expand on what a soft versus hard counter is, because it seems moot.

PS so what is IFF??

Apparently NARC does not counter ECM? Ill take it off the list.

Edited by SlXSlXSlX, 23 February 2013 - 01:20 AM.


#8 One Medic Army

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 01:19 AM

Things ECM counters:
Coordination (you can still manage somewhat with voice, but for solo players, it's over).
Coordination=teamwork
teamwork=victory

#9 Elkarlo

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 01:34 AM

Headset counters ECM.

In some extent the Adv Sensor range Module Counters ECM.
We need BaP to be counter to ECM also as it, it would even be in Lore.(*)

Together with Adv Sensor Range Module we would have then a range against ECM of 312 Meters,
leaving a 140 wide Corridor for locking. Dobuling the 70 wide Corridor Adv Sensors offers.
So BAP should be another counter for ECM.
ATM it is on the ECM stoppes to use list.

But we are yelling it for 3 Month now that Beagle Active Probe is a Lorewise counter to ECM, and
should be implemented as such. It would reduce the effectivness of ECM.
One 1.5 ton 2 Slot Modul against another 1.5 ton 2 Slot Modul.

(*) Double Blind rules in Maximum Tech p52 are the rules for Sensor Ranges. And there is clearly stated that the BaP increases the range and detection rate against Guardian ECM from 240 Meters up to 360 Meters. And i can remember several Novells were a Beagle Probed Raven sniffed out enemy G-ECM.

Edited by Elkarlo, 23 February 2013 - 01:41 AM.


#10 DocBach

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 01:43 AM

View PostElkarlo, on 23 February 2013 - 01:34 AM, said:


(*) Double Blind rules in Maximum Tech p52 are the rules for Sensor Ranges. And there is clearly stated that the BaP increases the range and detection rate against Guardian ECM from 240 Meters up to 360 Meters. And i can remember several Novells were a Beagle Probed Raven sniffed out enemy G-ECM.


Pg 224 of Tactical Ops also says that for sensors to be affected by ECM, the spotting 'Mech has to be in an enemy ECM bubble. So MWO has it backwards.

#11 SlXSlXSlX

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 03:11 AM

Overall summary is, theres a ton of weapons, the majority, it does not negate. Missle Warrior Online is dead, your going to have to accept that. It was not very popular, save the LRM boaters themselves.

Side Note: Wow there is a manual of all this stuff.?! You kind of lost me on that technical BT stuff. Can you dumb it down for me? :P

Id be happy w more counters, provided they take skill to employ. We need more skill, and less LMB spam.

#12 DocBach

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 03:15 AM

View PostSlXSlXSlX, on 23 February 2013 - 03:11 AM, said:

Overall summary is, theres a ton of weapons, the majority, it does not negate. Missle Warrior Online is dead, your going to have to accept that. It was not very popular, save the LRM boaters themselves.

Side Note: Wow there is a manual of all this stuff.?! You kind of lost me on that technical BT stuff. Can you dumb it down for me? :P

Id be happy w more counters, provided they take skill to employ. We need more skill, and less LMB spam.


More or less, ECM outside the bubble makes it so you can't identify the target, or get information on it. so its like when you target something and it's just A or B. Inside the bubble ECM has a high chance of blocking sensor spotting, but 'Mechs are suppose to have a bunch of different sensors like magscan and seismic which can detect ECM 'Mechs anyways.

ECM is also suppose to have a third mode, which is suppose to interfere with targeting. It floods the spotting 'Mechs sensors with too much information so it confuses the sensors. I think adding this third mode would be one of the best ways to balance out ECM. Move any sort of missile jamming to this mode, so you don't get all of ECM's effects in one neat Disrupt package.

#13 Fate 6

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 03:23 AM

Even in 8mans with voice communication, ECM is extremely rough. Enemy has 3 Ravens? How do you distinguish between them fast enough to effectively fight them? It's extremely hard to focus enemies in ECM because you can't get targetting data quickly.

#14 Critical Fumble

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 03:36 AM

If the goal is to make the game skill dependent, and you have a weapon system that is not skill dependent; in what addled state of mind do you need to be in to think that the way to fix the system is to add in MORE no-skill elements into the game (like ECM) rather than just changing problem weapon mechanic to one that IS skill based?

And as much as you like to poo-poo it, the effect on information sharing is what gets to most people. People who really like their LRM boats have figured out how to use TAG, and people who really like their streaks have gone for the ECM Raven and Commando. But if this really is a team game, what business does communications impeding gear have in it?

#15 Monky

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 03:45 AM

You want to offer balance advice and don't know if there's an LRM 10 or not...

#16 Daggett

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 04:38 AM

@OP:
Your list only scratches the surface of ECM.
The ECM's ability to screw guided missile boating is not the real problem.
This feature alone is kinda ok to deal with, though i would like a dumb-fire ability for SSRMS.

But what about those other features ECM provides?
- It makes the carrying mech and all nearby teammates untargetable
- It disrupts the enemy radar inside the bubble

These two features are WAY more powerful than the missile-counter. But it is not as obvious why you are losing to them, therefore most players don't recognize them as the problem.

Being untargetable forces the opposing PUG-team to use text chat which is a HUGE disadvantage because you can't control your mech while typing. Even premades have to spam their channel with spotting information instead of tactics.
And it forces everyone to use heat-vision most of the time to be even able to reliably spot ECM-hidden mechs.

Now to the radar-disruption:
It seeds total chaos in the opposing team once they are inside the bubble. You suddently don't know where your mates are, where they are heading, if they need help or what they do in general. You don't know where the enemies are, not even from those which are not ECM-covered, because you won't receive spotting data from your mates.

This way it's a childs play for a raven to isolate a singe mech even WHEN he is near his group. All it takes is a visual obstruction like a hill or building, and no one will see his distress unless he stops defending himself to type a SOS message in text chat. And now imagine a wolf-pack of ravens doing this...

And you have no reliable counter for those features which each mech can wield.
  • Tag won't help because ECM counters it inside the bubble. And it lightens up only one mech at distance. The rest of the stealthed team is still unkown to your team.

    And equipping TAG without having LRMs just to have a weapon against ECM often puts you at a disadvantage because you loose 1 ton and an energy hardpoint. Isnt' it strange that a 1.5 ton equipment gives you so much advantage that it requires other mechs to sacrifice 1.0 ton AND an energy slot just to have a VERY light counter against it? Sorry, this do not feel right from any angle i view it. :P
  • PPCs are hard to use against fast ECM mechs which are usually causing this chaos. It only reliably helps against the D-DDC. And by far not every mech can carry them and even if they could, the solution can't be that every mech should carry PPCs just because of ECM. :)
  • And the Death-Counter you mentioned? Seriously, this is by far no 'counter'. Each OP item can be countered by destroying it. It's the same as if you would say: "It's no problem to win ANY match. Simply destroy each enemy mech before they destroy you."

    Imagine PGI would include a 100t mech which is fast a medium and has better weapons and Armor as other assaults. Sure you could say: "Just destroy it", but it does not make it less OP and dangerous for the time it is alive.

Don't get me wrong. Each of those ECM-features can add an interesting layer to the game, but ONLY WHEN they are separate systems with a noticeable drawback each.

But currently all those really powerful effects are combined into one device with nearly no drawbacks. You don't have to sacrifice anything for it. Heck, ECM is even available only on the most powerful chassis variants instead of the less-used ones like the Raven-4X or the Spider 5K.

You could even take out the ability to screw guided missiles and ECM would still be too powerful for it's drawbacks.
It would still always be picked before BAP, TAG and NARC and even most weapons when you have to chose between those systems (EDIT: At least when the player knows about the power of stealth and radar disruption).

So please include those hidden side-effects of ECM into your Data compilation and then we can start discussing on a constructively base about ECMs power. :ph34r:

Edited by Daggett, 23 February 2013 - 04:48 AM.


#17 Fiachdubh

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 04:41 AM

The only issue with ECM is that some people fail to adapt so die and then come on the forums whining about it.

#18 Daggett

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 04:44 AM

View PostFiachdubh, on 23 February 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

The only issue with ECM is that some people fail to adapt so die and then come on the forums whining about it.

Wrong. Adapting does not make a too powerful item less powerful.
You can beat anything unfair with skill and experience. But it will always stay unfair to the average player.

Edited by Daggett, 23 February 2013 - 04:45 AM.


#19 Fiachdubh

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 05:04 AM

And how is it too powerful? I have it on one mech that I rarely use. Unless you are using a streak boat the competent use of eyeballs and teamwork are all you need to counter ECM. Anyone using a streak boat has no right to complain about anything. I am not implying that you specifically use a streak boat.

Edited by Fiachdubh, 23 February 2013 - 05:06 AM.


#20 Daggett

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 05:25 AM

View PostFiachdubh, on 23 February 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

And how is it too powerful? I have it on one mech that I rarely use. Unless you are using a streak boat the competent use of eyeballs and teamwork are all you need to counter ECM. Anyone using a streak boat has no right to complain about anything. I am not implying that you specifically use a streak boat.


Simply read my wall of text right above your first post. :D
ECM countering streak-boats is not the problem, this feature is ok because it punishes boating of LRMs and SSRMS.
It's the radar/communication-disruption and stealth-feature which makes it too powerful.

BTW, PGI gave ECM to the light mechs with most missile slots like the CMD-3D and the Raven-3L.
THEY are the new streak-boats and the only ones which can currently use streaks effectively.

ECM simply shifted the mechs on which SSRMs are powerful...

Edited by Daggett, 23 February 2013 - 05:32 AM.






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