134 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

After getting the Initial Sticker Shock of ECM, when I brought out my Catapult in December.
I was in the "OMGWTFBBQ ECM" crowd.
After playing with it for a while and getting used to it. (Putting TAG on my catapult and making it more maneuverable.) I was in the "ECM is fine, learn to get around it." crowd.
After playing with it for a long time, in every mech at some point or another- I've come to the conclusion that in it's current implementation, it is imbalanced.

(One could confirm that by asking his/her self, "if I were in a 2D, 3L, 5D, 3M, or D-DC, would there be any reason not to bring ECM?" right now I think we can all agree that it would be an emphatic "no!")

With that said: I'm proposing it be reimplemented in this way:

Guardian ECM should:
-Remove the detection range bonus from BAP.
-Remove the accuracy bonus from Artemis.
-Remove the accuracy bonus from NARC beacon.
-Nullify Target sharing. (And personal location sharing within 180meters)
-Generate ghost targets on the BattleGrid and Minimap in a logical fashion to confuse a player who does see it, as to how many mechs are really there. (This is optional.)

Guardian ECM should not:
-Eliminate targeting for a mech in Line of Sight.
-Give an enemy (nonBAP) mech notification of being jammed/disrupted.
-Effect TAG at all. (But TAG needs to work differently.)
-Have a counter mode

Now for the how and why broke down for the sake of discussion:
-Should remove the detection range bonus of BAP: Bap is electronic enhancement that ECM is designed to defeat. I don't think that needs any explanation.

-Should remove the accuracy bonus of Artemis: Artemis is an electronic enhancement that the system is designed to defeat. That makes sense by itself.

-Should remove the accuracy bonus of the NARC beacon: NARC is electronic assistance that the system is designed to defeat.

-Should nullify target sharing: This is the biggest one for the "should do" side of the coin. As of right now, from what I understand, MWO is set up as though each mech has a c3 target sharing system. (And that is fine with me..we can go hardcore mode and give out c3 to equiped lances; but that is for another thread.) Guardian ECM is designed to defeat this system, therefore preventing target data sharing. One could argue that this should only work within 180 meters, but given that this game is real time and much more dynamic than the Tabletop Battletech, I think preventing target data sharing from any distance is acceptable. This means that any mech that has LoS can target the ECM mounted mech, but he cannot share that targeting information with anyone else, they'll have to get it themselves via LoS.

Also, as it does now, it should prevent the target from sending/receiving any information with team mates, including personal location. Your minimap should be blank, but unless you're mounting BAP, you shouldn't be warned: just have to notice. (More on that farther down.)

-Should Generate ghost targets: This one is from Tactical rules or some such as I understand it, i didn't look into it, but as a fun idea to tinker with I think it should be explored. I think the Guardian ECM should generate False positives on the map to be detected when it is detected. They would have to be distributed in a fashion that made sense. (It wouldn't confuse anyone if all the targets just slide left and right when the ECM mech turned.) I think this could add a small non breaking feature to ECM that would help mask the numbers of large unit movements, or create a large unit movement out of a devious medium mech. This would be countered by BAP as the BAP mounting mech would see the false positives for what they are; perhaps turning their signatures brown, black, or yellow to distinguish between real signatures and fakes. This is completely optional and was just adding a little fun to the post.

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-Should not eliminate detection and targeting: This is the biggest one for the "should not do" side of the coin. ECM should not eliminate Line of Sight detection and locking of the mech. This is the current game breaker for ECM and where it earns either its passionate love or hatred by either side of the isle. I have an alternative to giving it stealth armor properties:

ECM should delay detection by 'x' seconds, so once an ECM mounting mech is visible and in detection range, it doesn't give you the target location arrow/locking ability for 0-6 seconds: I base this on 0 seconds for anything within 200 meters, 1 for 200-400 meters, 2 for 400-600 meters and so on.
000-200....: Instant
201-400....: 1 second
401-600....: 2 seconds
601-800....: 3 seconds
801-1000 .: 4 seconds
1001-1200: 5 seconds
1200-WTF: 6 seconds
This is to allow for some stealth movement to represent sensor disruption. This can substitute in game for Stealth Armor until that gets implemented when the time comes without actually ruining game-play. This could be countered by the Target Info Gather module, or a different module altogether. (non-canon effect countered by non-canon mechanic for the sake of game play.) And perhaps to the ECM mech's advantage, give him a warning that he is being actively searched.. give him time to "step back into the shadows" if he's far enough away.

This gives the ECM mounting mech the stealth effect of not being immediately broadcasted to the enemy team upon sight. This shields him from being easily missile'd from safety, as the missile mech would have to have LOS, or TAG information. (See TAG changes following these paragraphs.) But it also doesn't make him nearly invincible to missiles or give him the effects of Stealth Armor.

-Should not notify enemy target of disruption: This is one that kind of bugged me. BAP is stated to have been countered completely by ECM, however it also is stated to be aware of it. I think this implies that ordinarily a target is not actively informed that it is being disrupted. Currently, any mech being actively disrupted by an ECM is informed with a phasing HUD and low signal bars. I think this should be removed, and reserved for mechs mounting BAP. This would give BAP more of a purpose in being part of a team, outside of being mounted to missile mechs and scouts.

-Should not have a counter mode: Going out of order because the TAG aspect is two-fold.
I think that if ECM is implemented as above, that it would eliminate the need for a counter mode and therefore the ECM arms race. I don't think any weapon should need to be wholly countered by another of itself- that's an arms race.

-Should not effect TAG at all: This part is two-fold. First I think ECM should have no effect on TAG whatsoever because TAG is purely LoS laser information transmission, and therefore should only be obstructed by opaque objects.

That being said, I think TAG, as implemented is too powerful. (This is partially because of countering ECM.) I think TAG should offer its bonus only if:
A: The TAG'ing mech has at least indirect LoS to the missile mech. (Either direct LoS with the missile mech, or LoS to another TAG mounting mech, who has LoS with the missile mech, or 2-3 mechs can d-aisy-ch-ain so long as they have TAG.) [Edited because daisy and chain are apparently bad juju.]
B: I think it goes with part A: that the missile boat must have TAG as well.

That how I think TAG should be implemented, regardless of the presence of ECM or lack thereof. (This might also give NARC a reason to exist in its current incarnation, it does not need LoS.) It would also allow TAG to be returned to it's regular 450 meter range if so desired as it would no longer be absolutely required to gain lock or fire missiles.

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This would eliminate the complete dominance of ECM mechs versus others.. Raven 3Ls wouldn't completely destroy everything because they wouldn't be nearly invincible. It would have a person actually question whether their mech really needs ECM or not and whether that 1.5 tons could be better spent.

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TL;DR- There is no TL;DR, this was as compact as I could make it with essential information about every aspect needing addressed.

If this gets enough of a positive response, I'll copy it to the suggestions forums. Thanks for reading.

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After a few pages of discussion with various people including DocBach and Doc Holliday
We've refined the OP from Above to what is quoted below:

Livewyr, on 25 February 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

Artemis: Increases accuracy of Artemis Missiles by 35% on target mech if target is in LoS.

TAG: Increases Accuracy of incoming missiles on TAG'd mech by 35%

NARC:
Keeps Target information on NARC'd mech for any LRM/SSRM mech until the beacon is destroyed or mech receives 'x' amount of damage or for 'x' amount of time, or whatever. (and increases accuracy for missiles by 'y' amount)

AMS:
Increase effectiveness of AMS by 30% (AMS takes out 30% more missiles however they want to do that.)

BAP:
Increases detection range by 25%
Decreases Lock time by 25%
Detects any mech within 120 meters (regardless of terrain/status)
Informs BAP-mech that it is being Jammed by ECM
Informs BAP-mech if it is targeted.
Informs BAP-mech if it is being missile'd.
Provides Detailed Target data. (weapon location)
Detects and differentiates False Positives generated by ECM ghost mode. (counters lock-time increase from ECM G-Mode)

ECM:
Nullifies BAP detection range boost.
Nullfies BAP Locktime boost from BAP
Nullfies BAP 120 meter detection within 180 meters.
Nullifies BAP targeting/missile notifications within 180 meters
Disables enemy TAG'ing mech within 180 meters.
Disables enemy NARC beacon on any friendly mech within 180 meters.
Disables target info sharing on any enemy mech within 180 meters.
Counters enemy ECMs within 180 meters, when in ECCM mode.
Creates False Positive Targets (ghosts) on minimap that also increases lock-time of missiles in a "GHOST mode"
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No longer acts like Stealth Armor or Angel ECM

Missiles:
Generate much less shake when receiving missile hits, but they are cumulative. (Getting hit by a couple of missiles gives you barely a twitch, getting hit by a bunch of missiles at once gives you a more violent rock.)

LRMS:
Reduce damage of each missile from 1.8 to 1.5.
Increase projectile speed by 1.5x or 2x so missiles get to targets faster.

SSRMS:
Reduce agility to create possibility of miss on agile/fast mechs and if fired at a certain angle away from targets.

Edited by Livewyr, 25 February 2013 - 03:36 PM.

[TwentyOne]

Do this, make ECM a choice, a should I take it on my raven or no? Not just OMGMUSTHAS!

[DocBach]

I think I post this like, sixty times a day and the reaction I get is "l2p noob."\

btw misread your poll, I voted ECM is ok in current form when I wanted to so it wasn't.

Edited by DocBach, 24 February 2013 - 08:28 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

imho ECM stacking is a big issue. having 1 ECM on counter counter all enemy ECM would be a great way to address this. Also, as you noted, line of sight on an ECM mech should give you a lock if you have a beagle active probe imho. BAP should be able to see non ECM mechs inside the ECM bubble at 600meters, and ECM mechs at 400m.

PPC as a counter could stand to last 7 seconds not 4. mostly seems pretty useless except on the D'DC though. Stil using SRM's and lasers on lights, PPC hits are unreliable with convergence & netcode.

Overall the biggest problem right now is lack of ability to counter, if your team has 0 ECM and the enemy team has ECM the fight is already half lost due to the chaos ECM causes. yeah, it can be overcome, but I do not see that happen very often in matches.

still terribly unbalanced imho. I do like some features like the 180m disrupt it causes is fantastic.

NARC needs to work vs ECM or it remains worthless tonnage. NARC working inside 180m would set it apart from TAG and justify the tonnage, but this means PGI needs to break from Tabletop to do the right thing for gamebalance.

[Cade61]

Sounds a lot better than what we currently have.

Do it.... please?

[Team Leader]

Yes please!

Edited by Team Leader, 25 February 2013 - 04:21 PM.

[Tennex]

i wouldn't say its a dead horse. the issue has never been resovled.

[DocBach]

Oh, also Beagle should do a couple other things, like identify ghost targets.

Beagle needs a substantial buff where it has its own 120 meter bubble of radar where it can detect anything within its bubble regardless of line of sight. ECM should defeat that function.

[Livewyr]

DocBach, on 24 February 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

I think I post this like, sixty times a day and the reaction I get is "l2p noob."\

btw misread your poll, I voted ECM is ok in current form when I wanted to so it wasn't.

Some people are just jerks, it also depends on your attitude when posting. (if that applies)

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 24 February 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

imho ECM stacking is a big issue. having 1 ECM on counter counter all enemy ECM would be a great way to address this. [Stacking is the issue because the only thing to counter ECM truly, is another ECM] Also, as you noted, line of sight on an ECM mech should give you a lock if you have a beagle active probe imho. BAP should be able to see non ECM mechs inside the ECM bubble at 600meters, and ECM mechs at 400m. [I don't think BAP needs any extra powers- just the ones it should have exclusively.]

PPC as a counter could stand to last 7 seconds not 4. mostly seems pretty useless except on the D'DC though. Stil using SRM's and lasers on lights, PPC hits are unreliable with convergence & netcode. [That still plays on the current system we have now, where the only real counter to its power is another of it. That is the core issue that needs solved. PPC disruption is nice, but it's a bandaid.]

Overall the biggest problem right now is lack of ability to counter, if your team has 0 ECM and the enemy team has ECM the fight is already half lost due to the chaos ECM causes. yeah, it can be overcome, but I do not see that happen very often in matches. [Correct, because the system itself is far too powerful, combining 3 technologies in one.]

still terribly unbalanced imho. I do like some features like the 180m disrupt it causes is fantastic. [Agree, but I think it should only disrupt minimap type stuff.]

NARC needs to work vs ECM or it remains worthless tonnage. NARC working inside 180m would set it apart from TAG and justify the tonnage, but this means PGI needs to break from Tabletop to do the right thing for gamebalance. [NARC needs to work a little better, but realistically, TAG is too powerful and needs to be brought back down to where NARC serves an equal role. Check paragraph regarding TAG.]

In bold, in brackets.

Team Leader, on 24 February 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

I think the hardest thing to balance would be nullifying the target sharing. It's just one of those things that would be hard to put into a first person sim game and have it make sense. But I do believe that TAG should be the counter to that. TAG should be like a 1/2 ton target acquisition gear that's always on. Always providing the missile bonus if you're looking right at someone, and always giving detailed target info to your allies through the ECM disruption, if you're outside the 180m range.

Nullifying target sharing is already done when in the ECM bubble, (You can still sorta target it, but you can't give anyone else that info.) TAG should work with multiple TAG mechs.

DocBach, on 24 February 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

Oh, also Beagle should do a couple other things, like identify ghost targets.

Beagle needs a substantial buff where it has its own 120 meter bubble of radar where it can detect anything within its bubble regardless of line of sight. ECM should defeat that function.

I said in my post that Beagel should identify ghost targets- if that is implemented.

And I kind of like the idea of non LoS targetting inside 120 meters or so, but I could live without it. BAP should be the informant of local ECM.

[DocBach]

Livewyr, on 24 February 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

And I kind of like the idea of non LoS targetting inside 120 meters or so, but I could live without it. BAP should be the informant of local ECM.

ECM is suppose to defeat BAP, for ECM to defeat BAP, BAP needs to actually do something to defeat. However like you said BAP should soft counter some of ECM's features in turn, that way information warfare items work against each other in different ways instead of just one ECM to rule them all.

[Mystere]

I voted "Yes" to the first question and am using your signature (i.e. "ADAPT OR CRY!") as my justification.

[Livewyr]

DocBach, on 24 February 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

ECM is suppose to defeat BAP, for ECM to defeat BAP, BAP needs to actually do something to defeat.

It does, it extends sensor range by 1/4 (or 1/3, I can't remember) it also, in this case, boosts lock-on time.

Those things are countered by ECM as they should be.

Mystere, on 24 February 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

I voted "Yes" to the first question and am using your signature (i.e. "ADAPT OR CRY!") as my justification.

Adapt or cry works in cases of things that can be adapted to in multiple ways- not just getting one of your own.

[Royalewithcheese]

I like the TT-style implementation in the OP a lot. Ghost targets in particular would be an awesome thing to slap another team with as a DDC. Seems like a very useful thing to have in a brawl.

If they want to keep the whole ECM = sensor blackout thing, I think an easy way to buff BAP, nerf ECM, and have the two interact in an interesting way is to let the BAP increase detection range for ECM mechs. So the interaction between the two becomes a skill-based range game, and there's a type of mech (LRM boat) that has a clear incentive to carry the BAP.

[Mystere]

Livewyr, on 24 February 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Adapt or cry works in cases of things that can be adapted to in multiple ways- not just getting one of your own.

There are other ways to adapt, and you seem to have already found one of them. But, there are more and I leave those as exercises for you to do.

[DocBach]

Livewyr, on 24 February 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

It does, it extends sensor range by 1/4 (or 1/3, I can't remember) it also, in this case, boosts lock-on time.

But it's also suppose to be able to locate 'Mechs without LOS as long as they aren't "hidden" ie shut down. That's the whole point of the ECM/BAP interaction - ECM isn't suppose to screw with 'Mech targeting and tracking, it's suppose to hide movement to BAP sensors. Like this scenario

Mech A is a Raven with a BAP and he wants to check the caldera to see if its clear. He doesn't want to poke his head in, so he hides outside of the caldera and uses his BAP to check inside with sensors.

Mech B is a Hunchback without ECM, he runs through the caldera, gets targeted by Mech A, without knowing Mech A is even there as Beagle lets Mech A scan and target without exposing himself, and is promptly obliterated by LRMs.

Mech C is a Commando with ECM, he manages to get through the caldera undetected.

That's the kind of scenario that ECM is suppose to nullify Beagle, or in a city fight where Beagle's utility of tracking behind buildings would be a huge advantage.

Edited by DocBach, 24 February 2013 - 10:37 AM.

[Doc Holliday]

Livewyr, on 24 February 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

Some people are just jerks, it also depends on your attitude when posting. (if that applies)

I just had to point out that I have never seen DocBach post with a bad attitude, ever (unlike myself, I have to admit).

As for the OP, it's definitely a big improvement over what we have now, but it still looks a little off. Not sure why.

[Livewyr]

Royalewithcheese, on 24 February 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

I like the TT-style implementation in the OP a lot. Ghost targets in particular would be an awesome thing to slap another team with as a DDC. Seems like a very useful thing to have in a brawl.

If they want to keep the whole ECM = sensor blackout thing, I think an easy way to buff BAP, nerf ECM, and have the two interact in an interesting way is to let the BAP increase detection range for ECM mechs. So the interaction between the two becomes a skill-based range game, and there's a type of mech (LRM boat) that has a clear incentive to carry the BAP.

I think keeping the sensor blackout thing will keep ECM still in the OP section.. It would remain a no brainer. The idea of ECM was to counter the other electronic upgrades.

Mystere, on 24 February 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

There are other ways to adapt, and you seem to have already found one of them. But, there are more and I leave those as exercises for you to do.

Well yeah, you can carry TAG and sight for yourself, you can leave missiles in the Mechbay, or carry your own ECM.. (and now you can bring a PPC and hope.)

I think that's way too much Adaptation just to use an entire class of weapon.

DocBach, on 24 February 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

But it's also suppose to be able to locate 'Mechs without LOS as long as they aren't "hidden" ie shut down. That's the whole point of the ECM/BAP interaction - ECM isn't suppose to screw with 'Mech targeting and tracking, it's suppose to hide movement to BAP sensors. Like this scenario

Mech A is a Raven with a BAP and he wants to check the caldera to see if its clear. He doesn't want to poke his head in, so he hides outside of the caldera and uses his BAP to check inside with sensors.

Mech B is a Hunchback without ECM, he runs through the caldera, gets targeted by Mech A, without knowing Mech A is even there as Beagle lets Mech A scan and target without exposing himself, and is promptly obliterated by LRMs.

Mech C is a Commando with ECM, he manages to get through the caldera undetected.

That's the kind of scenario that ECM is suppose to nullify Beagle, or in a city fight where Beagle's utility of tracking behind buildings would be a huge advantage.

That's part of Active radar, which this game doesn't have. (And personally, I'm happy we don't have active radar.)

Doc Holliday, on 24 February 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

I just had to point out that I have never seen DocBach post with a bad attitude, ever (unlike myself, I have to admit).

As for the OP, it's definitely a big improvement over what we have now, but it still looks a little off. Not sure why.

Please, do think on it and let me know- I'm looking for good input.

[DocBach]

Livewyr, on 24 February 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

That's part of Active radar, which this game doesn't have. (And personally, I'm happy we don't have active radar.)

It's not called Active Radar in Battletech, its called Beagle active probe. Beagle gives you better radar, ECM takes it away. Thats the interaction between the two. Conversely, ECM makes ghost targets, Beagle sees through them. They cross cancel each other and work against each other but for it to work Beagle has to do

[Flapdrol]

All ecm should do imo is reduce the enemy's targeting distance, with a multiplier so it doesn't make bap and the range module useless. If you want to stick with lore let it counter the BAP upclose.

Instead it does a million things and counters itself, which is an absulutely nonsensical decision by the piranha gamebalance folks. why? nobody knows, my best guess was they were going for a way to counter streakcats without touching streaks, for whatever reason. A simpler ecm and a streak nerf would've done the trick with far less effort on the part of the devs, but I guess common sense didn't prevail that time.

[Orzorn]

As an aside to helping BAP out, the current "Warning: Targetting" we're getting shouldn't be something everyone has. I'd like to see that applied to BAP instead. Its advanced sensors allow those within its area of effect to be warned when they've been detected by enemy sensors, or some such horse hockey.