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Ecm Balance. Op Updated 2/25- Poll Was Removed In Favor A Later, Better One.


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#101 StalaggtIKE

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 03:25 PM

View PostLivewyr, on 25 February 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:


Artemis: Increases accuracy of Artemis Missiles on target mech if target is in LoS.

TAG: Increases Accuracy of incoming missiles on TAG'd mech by 35%

NARC:
Keeps Target information on NARC'd mech for any LRM/SSRM mech until the beacon is destroyed or mech receives 'x' amount of damage or for 'x' amount of time, or whatever. (and increases accuracy for missiles by 'y' amount)

AMS: ***
Increase effectiveness of AMS by 30% (take out 30% more missiles whoever they want to do that)

BAP:
Increases detection range by 25%
Decreases Lock time by 25%
Detects any mech within 120 meters (regardless of terrain/status)
Informs BAP-mech that it is being Jammed by ECM
Informs BAP-mech if it is targeted.
Informs BAP-mech if it is being missile'd.
Provides Detailed Target data. (weapon location)
Detects and differentiates False Positives from ECM for team. (counters lock-time increase from ECM)

ECM:
Nullifies BAP detection range boost.
Nullfies BAP Locktime boost from BAP
Nullfies BAP 120 meter detection within 180 meters.
Nullifies BAP targeting/missile notifications within 180 meters
Disables enemy TAG'ing mech within 180 meters.
Disables enemy NARC beacon on any friendly mech within 180 meters.
Disables target info sharing on any enemy mech within 180 meters.
Counters enemy ECMs within 180 meters, when in ECCM mode.
Creates False Positive Targets (ghosts) That increase missile lock-on time. (in ghost Mode)
---
No longer acts like Stealth Armor or Angel ECM

Missiles: ***
Generate much less shake, but give it cumulative shake. (get hit with a couple missiles at once; barely a twitch, get hit with a bunch of missiles of once; more violent rock.)

LRMS:
Reduce damage of each missile from 1.8 to 1.5.
Increase projectile speed by 1.5x or 2x so missiles get to targets faster.

SSRMS:
Reduce agility to create possibility of miss on agile/fast mechs and if fired at a certain angle away from targets.


Very nice! Now, THIS looks like a fun game. With the new proposed changes, I updated my vote to Yes. (I want that to be it.).


View Posthammerreborn, on 25 February 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

Him running around trying to gather the other teams numbers rather than actually piloting also makes the numbers suspect because instead of helping his team he's actually hindering it raising the odds the other team will win.

Pft. He always piloted the RVN-3L in his tests. Reread the hypothesis; he didn't expect superior ECM numbers to always win, but to usually win, in which his results proved. If you have problems with the data, take it up with Tolkien.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 25 February 2013 - 03:28 PM.


#102 p4r4g0n

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 03:30 PM

If it hasn't been said here yet -> limit duration of operation of ECM i.e. it burns out after being used for e.g. 2 minutes total. Either have an off / on toggle or pilot must make the choice when to start using ECM. For longer duration, install e.g. capacitors costing 1 ton & 1 crit slot for 30 seconds more.

I could probably live with everything else about ECM if it just wasn't passive and lasted forever.

#103 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 03:34 PM

This looks really good, you should start a suggestion thread and maybe post on the facebook. I'd even maybe directly PM a few of the regular dev posters.

#104 DocBach

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 03:43 PM

View Postp4r4g0n, on 25 February 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:


I could probably live with everything else about ECM if it just wasn't passive and lasted forever.


Ghost Target mode only lasts for a turn in the board game before having to roll to see if you can use it again the next turn, perhaps that could be represented in MWO by making Ghost Target mode (which would become ECM's primary defensive measure against LRM's/Streaks) have a time limit/cooldown

#105 Livewyr

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 03:56 PM

View PostDocBach, on 25 February 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:


Ghost Target mode only lasts for a turn in the board game before having to roll to see if you can use it again the next turn, perhaps that could be represented in MWO by making Ghost Target mode (which would become ECM's primary defensive measure against LRM's/Streaks) have a time limit/cooldown


Well, we could discuss having it go for a duration to represent that limitation, or having it be its own mode and not do any other countermeasure.. (or perhaps a better option if someone has one?)

#106 Colaessus

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 04:04 PM

Thats neat OP, so what games have you made lately that we all are playing as you seem to be a dev and not some player that only sees changes that best effects them.

O yea, PGI has not even released its main feature into the game yet.

#107 FireDog

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 04:11 PM

Honestly, one counter measure I wish I had was the option of loading HOJ (home-on-jammimg) missiles into my missile magazines. Any emitter, jammer or radar, should have to honor that threat. ECM as envisioned by the Battletech universe is ridiculously flawed and should be modified to somewhat follow the laws of physics (and computer game play in general). Most authors and Liberal Arts majors do not know jack about Electronic Warfare and it shows.

#108 Livewyr

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 04:11 PM

View PostAmro One, on 25 February 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

Thats neat OP, so what games have you made lately that we all are playing as you seem to be a dev and not some player that only sees changes that best effects them.

O yea, PGI has not even released its main feature into the game yet.


Haven't made any games, haven't said I'm a Dev- however

I run every chassis in the game thus far, I play every role in match including:

light Scout/spotter
light harrasser
light hunter
Medium Striker
Medium Support
Medium Sniper
Medium "brawler"
Heavy Support
Heavy Brawler
Heavy Sniper
Assault Support
Assault Sniper
Assault Brawler

So having a few thousand games (not including those in the CBT) and playing every role in every mech in the game thus far, I feel I had a good place to start. Working with other people who posted constructively in the thread, we were able to refine it to what it is now.

--------------

So.. what are your qualifications for making snide pointless remarks.

#109 Team Leader

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 04:20 PM

Concise post +1000 please please please put this all in game instead of this current... THING

#110 Agent 0 Fortune

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 04:27 PM

My biggest problem with ECM is that there is no counter for it within 180. Up to 750m I can use TAG, but inside that I am screwed. Supposedly ECM "jams the communication/tracking signal" for my LRMs, why can't an ally guide them for me. after they leave the 180m bubble?

And if ECM is supposed to be such a ballbuster, why do most of the mechs that carry it run SSRMs which require guidance. I can only suspend my disbelief so far, giant walking robots one thing, a 1,000m, selective, continuous, EMP pulse, that doesn't enemy mechs is another.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 25 February 2013 - 04:28 PM.


#111 Livewyr

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 04:33 PM

View PostFireDog, on 25 February 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

Honestly, one counter measure I wish I had was the option of loading HOJ (home-on-jammimg) missiles into my missile magazines. Any emitter, jammer or radar, should have to honor that threat. ECM as envisioned by the Battletech universe is ridiculously flawed and should be modified to somewhat follow the laws of physics (and computer game play in general). Most authors and Liberal Arts majors do not know jack about Electronic Warfare and it shows.


ARAD missiles... 5 years from now.

#112 hammerreborn

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 05:36 PM

View PostStalaggtIKE, on 25 February 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:


Pft. He always piloted the RVN-3L in his tests. Reread the hypothesis; he didn't expect superior ECM numbers to always win, but to usually win, in which his results proved. If you have problems with the data, take it up with Tolkien.


Why would I take issue with 2 month old data that is completely irrelevant to today's ECM environment?

#113 Livewyr

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 05:43 PM

hammer, why are you still harping on that? neither declare ECM to be balanced, so neither 'test' supports your opinion that it odds balanced.

#114 General Taskeen

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 06:20 PM

View PostLivewyr, on 25 February 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

We're getting off constructive target:

DocBach and Doc Holiday, do you guys have any other details you want to add/subtract from the current state of adjustment?

Artemis: Increases accuracy of Artemis Missiles on target mech if target is in LoS.

TAG: Increases Accuracy of incoming missiles on TAG'd mech by 35%

NARC:
Keeps Target information on NARC'd mech for any LRM/SSRM mech until the beacon is destroyed or mech receives 'x' amount of damage or for 'x' amount of time, or whatever. (and increases accuracy for missiles by 'y' amount)

BAP:
Increases detection range by 25%
Decreases Lock time by 25%
Detects any mech within 120 meters (regardless of terrain/status)
Informs BAP-mech that it is being Jammed by ECM
Informs BAP-mech if it is targeted.
Informs BAP-mech if it is being missile'd.

ECM:
Nullifies BAP detection range boost.
Nullfies BAP Locktime boost from BAP (and possibly increases lock-time of Missiles in general)
Nullfies BAP 120 meter detection within 180 meters.
Nullifies BAP targeting/missile notifications within 180 meters
Disables enemy TAG'ing mech within 180 meters.
Disables enemy NARC beacon on any friendly mech within 180 meters.
Disables target info sharing on any enemy mech within 180 meters.
Counters enemy ECMs within 180 meters, when in ECCM mode.
---
No longer acts like Stealth Armor or Angel ECM


LRMS:
Reduce damage of each missile from 1.8 to 1.3.
Increase projectile speed by 1.5x or 2x so missiles get to targets faster.

SSRMS:
Reduce agility to create possibility of miss on agile/fast mechs and if fired at a certain angle away from targets.


(Now that it is one spot if I'm correct, any items we want to change before I send in a full write-up to Garth.)


I agree with some of this.

Please consider adding the 'canon' function of what NARC does to that list idea. Currently it makes no sense on any Mech, but a Light. For instance, the Stalker-5M, Trebuchet-7M, and later the Orion-1M. A lot of people probably wonder why a Narc appears on larger Mechs, and even Assaults. The simple reason is that it is supposed to function with SRMs (not SSRMS) and LRMs (SRMs and LRMs are made to home in on NARC beacons, but they are double in cost, in other words you have to have SRM/LRM missiles upgraded to be 'narc homing' capable).

Tech Manual (page 232)

"...These [NARC] pods contain powerful homing beacons capable of cutting through most standard forms of ECM—at least until the Guardian suite came along—and are used to attract friendly missiles equipped with properly attenuated sensors."

"...An attached beacon remains fixed to its target, calling in missiles upon itself until its unwilling “host” is destroyed."

"...Moreover, the effect of a single unit equipped with a Narc launcher can enhance the targeting of every
friendly missile support unit using Narc-compatible missiles,..."

(This information was generalized on sarna.net to read as: "The Narc Missile Beacon is a missile homing utility that can be planted on enemy targets, causing friendly SRMs and LRM missiles (even those that do not traditionally have homing capabilities) to lock on to them)...."



It should have the fun, multi-purpose function that is missing from it, which would make more sense for ECM to be its counter. It is missing this fun feature that Mech Warrior 3 captured perfectly imo. TAG technically gains this feature as well in 3057 when Semi-Guided LRM missiles are introduced, which make the Semi-Guided LRM track towards where ever the laser points.




Other ideas:

C3 equipment really needs to brought into the game to really have true 'shared-info,' rather than the freebies we get. What should happen is this. This is stuff I brought up a while ago in the suggestion forum:

* Mechs can share targets, but not the Mech Readout of what they are targeting (this changes only partially from what it is now). Only by being in LOS, can someone see the Mech Readout information. (otherwise '??' should placed over the paper doll or HTOL)
* ECM stops someone from sharing the target.
* C3 Master/Slave units -> A C3 Master can share target and Mech readout information. A C3 Master also acts as TAG when locked onto target. Slave units detect nearest C3 Master, or another slave near by, to create a shared network. If an ECM cuts off a Master, the whole network is disrupted. If a slave unit is cut off by an ECM, only that unit is cut off from the enhanced share targeting. Any networked C3 unit does not need to have LOS for full target sharing.


As for BAP, I think what you have outlined is doing too much for it, imo (the first 4 outlined ideas are fine, but the being targeted and incoming missiles should be active on any mech regardless of using BAP or not). And I'm not sure you touched on it, but ECM should simply reduce detection time by specific distance a little longer than normal detection (what I mean is 0-400m; 1.5 seconds longer, 401m-799m; 2.5 seconds longer; 800m+ 3.5 seconds longer). It also should not cause lock-outs when using missile launchers.

Edited by General Taskeen, 25 February 2013 - 06:39 PM.


#115 Solis Obscuri

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 08:21 PM

View PostLivewyr, on 25 February 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

Artemis: Increases accuracy of Artemis Missiles on target mech if target is in LoS.

TAG: Increases Accuracy of incoming missiles on TAG'd mech by 35%

NARC:
Keeps Target information on NARC'd mech for any LRM/SSRM mech until the beacon is destroyed or mech receives 'x' amount of damage or for 'x' amount of time, or whatever. (and increases accuracy for missiles by 'y' amount)

BAP:
Increases detection range by 25%
Decreases Lock time by 25%
Detects any mech within 120 meters (regardless of terrain/status)
Informs BAP-mech that it is being Jammed by ECM
Informs BAP-mech if it is targeted.
Informs BAP-mech if it is being missile'd.

ECM:
Nullifies BAP detection range boost.
Nullfies BAP Locktime boost from BAP (and possibly increases lock-time of Missiles in general)
Nullfies BAP 120 meter detection within 180 meters.
Nullifies BAP targeting/missile notifications within 180 meters
Disables enemy TAG'ing mech within 180 meters.
Disables enemy NARC beacon on any friendly mech within 180 meters.
Disables target info sharing on any enemy mech within 180 meters.
Counters enemy ECMs within 180 meters, when in ECCM mode.
---
No longer acts like Stealth Armor or Angel ECM


LRMS:
Reduce damage of each missile from 1.8 to 1.3.
Increase projectile speed by 1.5x or 2x so missiles get to targets faster.

SSRMS:
Reduce agility to create possibility of miss on agile/fast mechs and if fired at a certain angle away from targets.


As a few comments:

TAG, Narc, and Artemis:
Per TT rules, Artemis IV and Narc improve cluster-hit grouping (analogous to grouping size in MWO), while TAG improves missile accuracy (analagous to tracking in MWO) by negating penalties for target movement, spotter movement, and indirect fire penalties. Artemis and Narc could not stack. Semi-guided missiles (which homed on TAG) were not compatable with either Narc or Artemis IV.

In MWO, all three give basically the same benefits - improved tracking and tighter grouping - but while Artemis and TAG stack, and TAG and Narc stack, Artemis and TAG do not. I'm really not sure why they bothered prohibiting the Artemis/Narc stacking, unless it was just to prevent people from getting a triple bonus. Narc beacons also allow indirect-fire against their target without a spotter, but have a limited duration, unlike TT rules.

BAP:
Per TT rules, an active probe confers several advantages: it detects hidden units in LoS within a 120m range, it can be used to scan for enemies at a range 50% greater than 'mech RADAR and 20% greater than 'mech IR/Magscan under conditions of obscured visibility, and it provides the user to scan for detailed information on enemy unit status and equipment (a full view of the record sheet, as opposed with telling only the 'mech variant, general % health and one specific question about a unit's status to an opponent with regular sensors).

In MWO, ECM provides a 25% bonus to targeting range, a 25% bonus to targeting info gathering time, and an ability to target shutdown units. The detailed scanning abilities are given for free to all units.

ECM:
Per TT rules, ECM gives out a number of bonuses. ECM negates the bonuses for Artemis and Narc on missiles that pass through its field of influence. It also cancels out special abilities of an active probe such as detecting hidden units and gathering additional info from sensor scans. ECM additionally interferes with scanning results for enemy units that within its 180m radius, reducing their chances of detection with scans (but not visual detection within LoS in visual range in the pilot's frontal arc).

ECM can be switched to an ECCM mode, in which it will counter the effects of an enemy ECM within its radius; it can also be switched to a Ghost Target mode, which has a chance of confusing the targeting and tracking systems of an enemy 'mech and reducing weapon accuracy if the shots pass through the affected radius of that ECM. ECM in ECCM or Ghost Target modes lose the standard benefits of ECM.

In MWO, ECM prevents any friendly 'mech in its radius of effect from being targeted or locked-onto with missiles (outside a very narrow 20m band), unless that unit is designated by TAG from outside the ECM radius. Even when using TAG or standing in the 180m-200m band, missile lock-on times against enemies within the ECM radius are doubled. Any enemy units that fall within the radius of an ECM lose their ability to lock guided missiles or spot with TAG, and cannot communicate their position to friendly units outside the ECM radius or spot targets for them. ECM negates all effects of BAP within its radius. ECM can be switched into an ECCM mode which negates the effect of one enemy ECM within its radius; in doing so it loses its normal benefits as well. PPC hits on a unit carrying an ECM will temporarily negate the effects of that ECM.

LRMs:
Per TT rules, LRMs can be fired in a direct fire mode, where they function normally as a direct-fire weapon, or without LoS in an indirect-fire mode, where the to-hit roll includes an additional +1 or +2 penalty for using a spotter (depending on whether or not the spotter makes any attacks during that turn). LRMs have a cluster-hit roll to make as well, that causes them to have a variable range of damage against an enemy target. LRMs have a 180m minimum range, and suffer a cumulative +1 to-hit penalty for every 30m their target is inside that range. SRMs function as per direct-fired LRMs, but have a shorter range and no minimum range.

In MWO, LRMs function the same in both direct fire or indirect-fire modes. They are able to track moving targets, but are generally easier to evade than other direct fire weapons due to their slow flight speed. Target lock must be maintained for the duration of their flight in order to maintain the tracking effect. Missiles are able to attain locks outside of their normal firing arcs (i.e. torso-mounted missile can lock onto targets under an arm reticule.) LRMs have a 180m minimum range, inside which they do no damage to their target. LRMs have higher damage-per-missile values than TT, as do SRMs.

SSRMs:
Per TT rules, Streak SRMs function as SRMs, but with two exceptions: if the attacker fails to make their to-hit roll, the missile launcher does not fire (conserving heat and ammunition). If the to-hit roll is successful, all missiles in the salve hit (as per a best-case roll on the cluster-hit table).

In MWO, Streak SRMs function completely differently than SMRs - SRMs are an unguided rocket, while Streaks gain a lock and unerringly hit their target. Streak missiles are designed to primarily group damage in the target's torso area. SSRMs will not fire without a lock (which is usually due to the effects of ECM). Missiles are able to attain locks outside of their normal firing arcs (i.e. torso-mounted missile can lock onto targets under an arm reticule.) SSRMs have higher damage-per-missile values than TT, identical to SRMs.

AMS:
Per TT rules, each AMS can engage a single salvo (the missiles launched from a single launcher) of incoming missiles; this is reflected by modifying the cluster-hit roll for that launcher, and will result in destroying some (or all) of those missiles depending on how good the cluster-hit roll was and how many missiles the launcher fired. AMS is effective against all types of missiles.

In MWO, an AMS attempts to engage all enemy missiles passing through the vicinity of the 'mech; this tends to be quite effective against small LRM launchers chain-fired, but can be overwhelmed by large simultaneous volleys from multiple launchers. AMS is effective against LRMs, but rarely effective against SRMs and SSRMs fired at closer ranges.




Looking over all of that, compared to TT, the ECM is the biggest "winner" acquiring a powerful set of abilities that far transcend its capabilities on TT.

BAP is possibly the biggest loser, giving up some of its unique abilities to basic 'mech sensors.

TAG is boosted greatly, as it gains both tracking and grouping bonuses, plus the capability to counter ECM somewhat.

Artemis IV receives a moderate boost, as it gains both tracking and grouping bonuses.

Narc receives a small bonus, as it gains both tracking and grouping bonuses, as well as an ability to designate a target without the need for a spotter with LoS. Its short duration serves as a slight nerf from TT in one regard.

LRMs become a much more situational weapon - they are more (potentially) accurate for indirect fire than on TT and can deliver much higher damage per salvo; however, they are easier to evade, the firing unit can be suppressed by other direct-fire weapons readily due to their slow flight time, their minimum range is much more strict than in TT, and their ability to attain locks is largely negated by ECM.

SRMs gain big in close - a full salve is almost guaranteed to hit point blank, and do much better and more concentrated damage than TT. Past about half their range bracket, though, they aren't very useful due to poor accuracy and wide spread.

SSRMs resemble TT in several regards, but gain big from being able to lock-on without being pointed within 60º of their target, and by having higher damage and better concentration of damage than on TT.

AMS gains somewhat against LRMs from TT, being able to target more incoming missiles, but loses big against SRMs and SSRMs, which it has a hard time engaging. It is greatly overshadowed by ECM, which gives better protection against both SSRMs and LRMs (plus a host of other benefits), and because neither work effectively against SRMs fired at point-blank ranges.




In general I'd agree with most of your changes, but not all. My take:

Artemis:
Same as currently implemnted in MWO.

Narc:
Same as currently implemented in MWO.

TAG:
Same as currently implemented in MWO.

BAP:
Increases sensor range by 25%.
Improves target info gathering time by 25%.
Target info gathering for loadouts and component damage past 250m becomes a function for BAP. Ordinary sensors can do the same at close range.
Can target shutdown units.

ECM:
Negates Artemis and Narc within its radius, and against friendly 'mechs in its radius.
Negates BAP effects within its radius, and against friendly 'mechs in its radius.
Negates TAG if fired within its radius.
Missile lock-on times are doubled against 'mechs in ECM radius (and for enemy 'mechs in ECM radius).
Sensor detection range against a 'mech carrying ECM is reduced by 75%.
Range for damage paperdolls 'mechs under ECM protection is reduced by 50%.
ECCM counter mode negates one enemy 'mech in radius of effect, but loses standard ECM benefits.
Ghost Target mode causes false RADAR/minimap targets to display for enemy; ECM loses standard benefits in this mode.

LRMs:
Double flight speed, reduce damage as per above (1.3/missile). Increase spread against targets in indirect-fire mode (without LoS). Restrict missile lock-on to the appropriate reticule for the weapon system (arm for arm-mounted, torso for torso-mounted).

SRMs:
Reduce damage to 2.0/missile. Tighten spread past 100m.

SSRMs:
Reduce damage to 2.0/missile. Restrict missile lock-on to the appropriate reticule for the weapon system (arm for arm-mounted, torso for torso-mounted).

AMS:
Improve effectiveness at close range, allow it to engage SRMs and SSRMs effectively even point-blank.

#116 Abivard

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 08:43 PM

QQ

Like children, the same rant over and over and over, grow up and man up. Or woman up as it may be, my sisters scare me lol

#117 Dudeman3k

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:30 PM

View PostAbivard, on 25 February 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

QQ

Like children, the same rant over and over and over, grow up and man up. Or woman up as it may be, my sisters scare me lol


lol, this guy thinks the OP is "ranting" and "QQ"ing

I believe the OP has a great thread. Great suggestions. I would welcome any change to the current ECM. I during CB I wanted passive sensors to effectively scout, and stealth armor to hide from radar.... but to my suprise ECM did BOTH. I had my fun with it, enough so to say it's way too effective.

#118 DocBach

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 11:21 PM

View PostAbivard, on 25 February 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

QQ

Like children, the same rant over and over and over, grow up and man up. Or woman up as it may be, my sisters scare me lol


ok... guess all of us who don't like ECM QQing just need to adapt and L2P, huh?

Posted Image

Oh, wait.... Top 10, in a Medium 'Mech without cheese or ECM.

Have you actually read the suggestions, and understood the amount of depth that would be added to the electronic warfare in this game if something like this was implemented? We don't dislike ECM because we can't play, or thrive in it. We dislike it because it shallows and cheapens the depth of gameplay, homogenizing most tactics around ECM makes the game sterile.

Edited by DocBach, 25 February 2013 - 11:23 PM.


#119 Abivard

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 11:34 PM

great suggestions, to nerf everything except streaks, only nerf streaks that work against lights is that a nerf or a buff?

It all boils down to y'all can't use anything but streaks, you need your hand held by others and ECM interferes with your ability to cherry pick because it makes it to hard to see the almost dead mech so you can steal the kill from the person who was actually fighting.

Bet you cheat at solitaire too lol

#120 Solis Obscuri

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 11:41 PM

Isn't narrowing the lock window for Streaks a nerf?





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