23 replies to this topic

[Glythe]

How about we have a module that upgrades AMS?

Level 1 upgrades AMS to shoot down streaks more effectively (removing the 150m minimum range).

Level 2 upgrades AMS tracking against LRMs and increases range by 15% (overall shooting down about 20% more missiles).


ECM weighs the same as AMS but anyone that can carry ECM will ALWAYS replace AMS with ECM. That says to me AMS needs a buff so that it is still a viable choice instead of something you will always replace if possible.

[Xamiakas]

how about NO

[Sagranda]

Would rather have an option to turn AMS Off and On

[Stringburka]

The first one would be good. The second, not so sure.

Regardless, it's ECM that needs a nerf, not really AMS that needs a buff - but a buff of AMS would make Streaks less powerful.

[Glythe]

If you want to nerf something without touching it at all (devs seem to think ECM is fine) the solution is to buff that which is crappy and weak by comparison. I see so many people not bringing AMS anymore because they have ECM. If AMS gets a buff people will realize they need both if possible.

In reality the biggest concern right now with ECM is the raven because it runs streaks. The best thing you want to use against it is streaks and ECM but unless you're a Raven 3L or Atlas DDC that won't happen. If AMS stopped streaks I know a lot of people who would never leave base without them again. Suddenly you would have a raven who is hitting you with 2-3 medium lasers and about 1 missile per volley from 2 streak launchers. That would severely put the Raven in check and I think most people agree it needs something to keep it from being the "do everything always the best light mech" option.

Making this upgrade a module slot would mean that you have to give up something in exchange and therefore it wouldn't be too powerful as there are some viable modules out there. It would also open the door to larger streak launchers without making them be completely broken. This would also put streaks as a high risk weapon because they can be easily foiled by ECM and AMS.

As a late edit.... maybe the AMS upgrade should let it attempt to shoot down any srm. Now you won't really be doing much against something like the A1 splatterpult but it would provide a tiny bit of damage mitigation. The AMS wouldn't do much against the average SRM launcher but something would be better than nothing. I'd be happy with 1-2 missiles from a single volley (maybe double that if he fired at max range and actually hit you). You would never notice the difference because people usually hit you with a big group of SRMs but it would be a +1 to the idea that AMS is a good thing.

I firmly believe in AMS. I've seen what happened when a team of 8 people all had AMS back when LRMs came straight down from the sky (rocks did not block them) and they homed right towards the target (even if target data was lost). Right now ECM is 100% hands down the better choice..... and maybe it should be. But AMS isn't even in the same ballpack in terms of effectiveness for its weight.

[Osski]

I'm all for a larger variety of modules that add options to what I can do on the battlefield, so I like the idea. That said, ECM still needs to be handled differently, imho, or at least given some weight in matchmaking and/or later on given some weight as far as logistics and weight/points limits when doing the whole community warfare thing. It should be very costly to acquire and/or to field and maintain, in other words.

But as the game isn't complete, so much of this is just speculation and conjecture in the here and now.

Edited by Osski, 26 February 2013 - 10:42 AM.

[Glythe]

"the LAMS uses a Small Pulse Laser, ensuring that the system never runs out of ammunition. It still has the same effect of reducing the roll on the cluster table by 4, however a laser system destroys the entire incoming volley on a net result of 1 or less."

Sounds like generally the LAMS is not that much more effective. Many people harp that AMS is not effective enough... as such I'd like to see what an improvement might do.

[Markis Steiner]

SSRMs would be less effective inside of 150m if they gave the missiles a slower turn time. ECM is effective until it gets locked down or people learn how to shoot direct fire weapons.

I would not mind seeing an AMS mod that overclocked the gun, causing it to spend more ammo to shoot down more missiles. Maybe 1.5 times the missile destruction at a 1.5 ammo consumption rate on an AMS. On an LAMS it would increase the missile destruction to 1.5 with increased heat build up.

The idea of having a AMS mod that allows for the AMS to midagate normal SRM would also be interesting. Have the Mod give the AMS an overwatch effect that engages all missiles that come inside of a certain range. The upside to this would be increased protection, the downside would be ammo consumption. The AMS would never stop shooting!

The unfortunate side to an AMS mod seems to be that any mod that is potent enough to make it viable on a single mech would probably make it OP for multi-AMS mechs.

[Glythe]

Markis Steiner, on 26 February 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

The unfortunate side to an AMS mod seems to be that any mod that is potent enough to make it viable on a single mech would probably make it OP for multi-AMS mechs.

Honestly most people never use double AMS mechs.... because they feel overall AMS is lackluster. Considering how the devs feel ECM is the greatest thing since sliced bread I doubt it will change soon. That being said we have to treat it as the "gold standard". By comparison to ECM AMS is more like the lead standard. It works when you have about 8 on a team.... but most people just don't bother and it ends up not helping much most of the time.

Most people realize they can defeat LRMs with positioning or severely mitigate the damage they can deal. And while this is true AMS helps even more. Remember too that we are seeing missile boats with 50-60 missiles per volley these days with Artemis and Tag. That's really quite ridiculous and as such the AMS is not keeping up (because most people opt not to use it).

The other reason I propose this module is that if AMS shot down streaks with no minimum range the Raven 3L would be severely nerfed. I think a lot of people feel that would be a good thing. It would still keep the Raven unique but pilots could no longer require on easy mode streaks +ECM. Suddenly Ravens need to make space for 1.5 tons and then they will have to give up something to keep their uber build.

[Markis Steiner]

I actually run a 3L with a non-meta build (I also have piloted it since before ECM worked). I have ECM on as well as AMS for when the ECM gets blocked or is used to counter other ECM. I find AMS to be a required thing for all of my mechs simply because you do not always have ECM or cover you can get to quickly.

I love the idea of removing the minimum range on the AMS for killing streaks. This would help all mechs deal with SSRM spamming Ravens.
What did you think of the 'Overwatch' type AMS module? Just allowing the AMS to engage any missile inside of the AMS bubble, LRM, SRM, SSRM, and at some point MRM. Minimum range removed of course.

[Glythe]

I think AMS would be too good if you got both benefits for one 10,000 gxp upgrade. That's why I suggest it comes in as two upgrades that when taken together will give you overwatch so that the AMS shoots down any missile.

As I said before massive volleys will still hit you. But I'd be overly happy if my AMS tried its best to beat streaks, SRMs and LRMs if they were fired at me within range.

At that point AMS would become something that you can't leave home without. I feel that would be a good thing for the game. I realize the AMS needs distance to shoot more missiles but that means a single srm 6 might only hit me with 3-4 missiles (and one might naturally miss). That would be fantastic. I'd love to get hit by 3-4 less missiles per volley. It would curb some of the boating we have in the game right now. It wouldn't matter most of the time but sometimes it would mean the difference between staying alive and losing the game.

One day I'll try to get the BAP buffed again but for now I'd like to get AMS into being a must have item on every mech.

[sC4r]

well if you could mount more ams on a mech (lets say 1 on lighther mechs 2 for everyoneone else and hmmm 4 for whichever stalker its and atlas k)

but any buff to ams would be welcomed as the current one isnt worth it ... well except the time when you stand in larger group and everyone having the ams

[Kusak Snowtiger]

I like the Idea. I mean I still want an on off toggle for the ams. But Module's that upgrade the AMS ability to defend against all missile types. Yeah Id have to crowd the system back into my mech. Avoiding my thoughts on leg rammer ravens which will be solved when I can knock them back over again and then DFA them with my HGN till they are a raven splat mark. Having the ability to thin out the number of incoming srm's and SSRM's inside the 150 mark would be just nice.

[Hobo Dan]

Very good idea. In general I want to see more modules.

+1

[Strig]

I like the idea of a module that improves AMS. I am not sure if your approach of altering range would be the best path, but it would work for what you have stated you want them to accomplish. Another angle might be increased rate-of-fire or increased damage per "bullet", either of which should net a similar improvement. This might see a return of the AMS umbrella that a smaller, organized lance could benefit from, that was still nowhere near the power of a single ECM, but quite effective at what AMS is designed for.

More modules and more balance (or more accurately, circular imbalance) are both good things.

+1

[FrostCollar]

The specifics, especially for the second part, might not be the best. However, the idea in general is gold. Currently you're extremely lucky for AMS to have any effect on a volley of SSRMs whatsoever. I am definitely for this!

I wouldn't say no to retro-streak warheads either, but as the addition of alternate ammo types seems to be far in the future I'm not keeping my fingers crossed. This suggestion, however, does not seem very hard to add to the game.

[Glythe]

Unless I am mistaken in the TT game the AMS shoots down anything resembling a missle coming at you. Apparently the devs thought that was too strong.

Looking ahead at the clan tech there are much larger streak launchers. This module could open the door to larger streak launchers that aren't completely OP. Why? Because AMS will attempt to shoot them down in the otherwise dead zone if you have the module.

I remember a time when everyone who was out of trial mechs had AMS. It was really nice for team play as you could move to 2-3 allies when missiles came at you and those missiles just vanished. I'd like that element of the game to return. These days you see very large missile boats and 1 AMS isn't passing muster anymore. Any dedicated LRM boat is using TAG and the missiles are often aided by Artemis which really hurts as that is a big concentrated hit.

I really don't think that a module slot is too much to ask for AMS to go into overtime. In reality it is just increased mitigation against small groups of missiles. Large groups of missiles will still really hurt you. As for the issue of range.... the original module idea the devs had for AMS was increased range. That alone won't make people return to using AMS. I'd like to see AMS as something that more people feel they need (especially with the module). Giving it just a little more maximum range gives it more time to shoot down a mammoth group of missiles. It also increases the team play umbrella aspect which is currently gone.

As for better tracking I think most people forget that AMS can't stop an LRM 10 from damaging you. It can turn that volley into a LRM 6 and it can turn a LRM 5 into a LRM 1 which is something to laugh about. But if you run AMS and make good use of terrain you can often stop the few missiles that would otherwise hit you.

I'm not advocating that AMS ever become so good that it shoots down LRM 20 (2x). I'm merely suggesting that we have some option to make AMS beefy if we want to devote the tonnage AND the module slot (which is in very short supply on many mechs). At best right now you're looking at killing about 8 missiles from a 40 missile solvo with double AMS. That is a lot of mitigation (for just 2 tons considering it took him 20+ tons for that offensive). Remember too that LRMs already have 2 modules that increase their effectiveness (sensor range & target decay). The second level of the module should at best be giving you about 1-2 more missiles killed per volley.

Stop a minute and think about how often you see allies covering you with AMS. I know that it usually doesn't happen anymore. I ask people I play with to include it on their mechs over 50 tons because it does help the team. Considering that AMS has largely become an unused feature I think it needs something to keep it viable. Because honestly even though I am perhaps its biggest advocate I sometimes wonder if it is worth the tonnage.

Edited by Glythe, 28 February 2013 - 04:01 PM.

[ElLocoMarko]

No please.
Buffing AMS against LRM would make LRM viable only in vast numbers (i.e. boated). I want smaller mechs to continue to mount LRM10 and have it be somewhat effective. It makes the world a nicer place full of mixed weapon mechs.
Buffing AMS against streaks will just make people boat streaks to get through the AMS.

Once they phase back in netcode you will be able to kill the pesky lights again and they will be putting far fiewer streaks into your back torsos.

Edited by ElLocoMarko, 28 February 2013 - 03:58 PM.

[Glythe]

ElLocoMarko, on 28 February 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

No please.
Buffing AMS against LRM would make LRM viable only in vast numbers (i.e. boated). I want smaller mechs to continue to mount LRM10 and have it be somewhat effective. It makes the world a nicer place full of mixed weapon mechs.

The majority of people seem to think that there is only 1 way to play this game.... have all your weapons optimized for one range. It's a little OP if you can make people fight you at that range. The real problem I see is that as it stands a single LRM 10 is probably not going to do much..... especially without TAG (and judging from the quote you agree). What it sounds like to me is that you don't want to give people a reason to bring AMS at all.

ElLocoMarko, on 28 February 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

Buffing AMS against streaks will just make people boat streaks to get through the AMS.

Once they phase back in netcode you will be able to kill the pesky lights again and they will be putting far fiewer streaks into your back torsos.

First there are only 2 mechs that can really boat streaks and that is the stalker and the A1 catapult. If you go either route you run into a huge problem if you find ECM. I already pointed out that AMS can shoot down 4 out of 5 missiles. If you are using 3 streak launchers that is 6 missiles. Last night I had a game where I survived against a streak stalker who was shooting streaks at me and my AMS shot them down until he got very close. Because of the NARC launcher design I was shooting down an extra missile and his streaks were almost entirely negated.

The big problem at the moment with the netcode is that they just tweaked it. It's better but lights are still evading at least 40-60% damage (although this is down about 40-60% from where it was before depending on latency on both ends). As such I think it is now on the back burner and they are going to address other issues before they completely redo that whole system.... again. If lights need AMS to avoid streaks and AMS will now shoot streaks at all ranges then it 100% foils the cheese combo of light+streak+ ECM = automatic kill for any light mech that doesn't have those three.

There is currently nothing in the game that counters ECM+light+streak=cheese. This module would remove that cheese build. I think most people would rejoice if there was a combination that prevented it.

[Eddrick]

Could also make a pilot skill for it since most/if not all Mechs can equip it.