100 replies to this topic

[SirLANsalot]

So lets take a look at the "cheese" mechs that certain people like to whine about. Mind you, some of these "builds" have been around since CB.

Catapult A1.

I like to pick on this one the most since it really is the most useless of all the catapults outside of a coordinated 8v8. This mech was made for one purpose, and thats LRM's.....lots of LRM's. This brings in however the issue of no defensive weaponry at all....none....zilch...nada. Where as the C1 and C4 both have defensive beams, and were later models, the A1 has none. What then happens is people will "boat" SRM6's on it and run a big eng and lots of ammo. However this mech has a few BIG drawbacks to it.

1. Its an AMMO based mech.
2. Its Range.
3. Its HEAT.

Number one there is just that, its AMMO based, meaning its not meant for a long, drawn out battle and with the eventual advent of the 12v12....this part of the mech will mean it won't be around for much longer.

Number two means just stay away. Granted this doesn't always happen and if the A1 pilot can hide then he can pop out at you and get a good volley off before you know he is there. In which case you will need to fire every gun you have at his pods, or aim for his cockpit and drop him like a rock (ac/20 can do this very well).

Number three here is a very big key when fighting these mechs, they cannot fire more then 3 vollys before they overheat. Its the sacrifice they MUST make to have enough ammo to make it though a fight, and for having SRM6's. Those weapons are very hot and they wont be able to get more then a few good shots off before they have to run off to cool down. This generally means that only an atlas can withstand his firepower to force this issue to happen (in 1v1).


To fight this build, or to at least be prepared for it having these weapons on you can help you fight this "cheese".

4+ Medium lasers
4+ Medium Pulse Lasers
1+ AC/20
1+ AC/10
1+ LBX-10
4+ Large Lasers
4+ AC/5
2+ Large Pulse Lasers/PPC
3+ SRM4
Mechs are not mentioned as having any just one of the groups listed above, while aimed at its CT or Head will kill the mech before it can kill you. Good marksmanship is well appreciated.



PPC Stalker. Stalker 3F/5S/4N

This mech is new to the game but this build is as old as it is. 6x PPCs is a very high 60 damage alpha, however right there is its key weakness too. ALPHA is the name of this cheese and it is very very hot. This mech has a lot of damage but it also can cook itself very quickly, and it is very much a one shot wonder. One this mech fires, it will only be able to get one additional shot off before it shuts down, if the pilot has any brains at all he will not take that second shot. If however he dose, his goose is literally cooked. Once he is shut down you have yourself a very good opportunity to take out one of his torsos, or if your fast, get in behind him and stay there. These mechs are not limited to ammo unlike the "swiss cheese" nor are they limited in range, but they are severely limited in the heat. Even with a big eng and every nook and cranny filled with DHS, they will not be able to get a 3rd shot off, even with normal PPC's.

This list of weapons here will help in killing this "alpha cheese".

4+ Medium Lasers
4+ Medium Pulse Lasers
1+ AC/20
2+ AC10
2+ LBX-10
4+ Large Lasers
3+ Large Pulse Lasers/PPC
4+ AC/5
3+ SRM4

Good marksmanship is well appreciated.


Raven 3L

This mech has been around since Close Beta and was generally a looked down upon mech. It wasn't any better then a Jenner, and was less armored and armed as the Jenner. It wasn't a much used mech until the advent of ECM, and the fact that its main rival would not be getting one. Now this mech quickly rose up to power because it no longer was about how fast you could go, because now it can carry Streaks and Medium lasers and hit any light without even lifting a finger. That light in return would not be able to hit back as hard as it was taking damage, as it was denied the streaks that it was carrying. Even carrying normal SRM's was fool hearty as one would need to be able to land shots on an almost equally fast mech. Something that even a good pilot, on a good day, would have a challenge doing.
What can counter such awesome power, well its quite simple, don't play IT'S game. What I mean is, don't play its game of light vs light. This mech only shines when its fighitng its own kind, when it fights other, more armored mechs. With pilots that know how to hit fast moving targets, this mech falls flat on its face.

The list for this mech is short.

1+ AC/20
1+ LBX-10
4+ Medium Pulse Lasers
2+ Large Pulse Lasers.

VERY good marksmanship is GREATLY appreciated.




So there you have it, running a mech with any one or more of those weapon groups will give you a good chance of defeating these "cheese" builds. One thing however that cannot be told, or even taught, is piloting skill. That is something that comes with time, and a willingness to learn from ones mistakes. Reading this and then thinking how to bring one of those weapon groups with you on your mech that you want to run will go a long way in learning how to fight this "cheese". The marksmanship comment at the end of each of the lists is an indication that you will need to aim at the components of the mech, rather then just shooting at it and hoping you do damage to something.

edit: its 4am

Edited by SirLANsalot, 10 March 2013 - 02:36 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

SirLANsalot, on 10 March 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

Raven 3L

This mech has been around since Close Beta and was generally a looked down upon mech.

No it wasn't, it was introduces at the same time as ECM as it has ECM stock. The 4X and the 2X were introduced in closed beta, and have been mostly considered useless since their introduction.

SirLANsalot, on 10 March 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

What can counter such awesome power, well its quite simple, don't play IT'S game. What I mean is, don't play its game of light vs light. This mech only shines when its fighitng its own kind, when it fights other, more armored mechs. With pilots that know how to hit fast moving targets, this mech falls flat on its face.

The list for this mech is short.

1+ AC/20
1+ LBX-10
4+ Medium Pulse Lasers
2+ Large Pulse Lasers.

VERY good marksmanship is GREATLY appreciated.

With such a loadout on a 4X or 2X you can kill the 3L, as long as you can avoid getting targeted yourself.
In either of those mechs your best bet is to stay behind the bigger mechs and help them deal with the 3L. If you are a scout and you're not in a 3L or you don't have backup stay near the rest of the team because you never know how many lights the enemy has and what kind. You should always be prepared to lure the enemy lights back to your team.

[Vassago Rain]

Each ton of SRM ammo is 250 damage. I take 8 tons on my catapult, and have been since they made jumpjets useful..

So that's...2000 damage, best case scenario. Assuming you have the usual terrible hit detection, you'll do maybe 1500 total with these, if all hit. A more likely scenario is 1000+ damage, 3 dead mechs, or that you die before you can even use up a ton of rockets.

A1s are extremely dangerous - more so in proper hands. Beams? Why? I hug, you die (when my missiles don't vanish into the void).

My atlas doesn't carry this much potential damage around.

How do you stay away from something moving almost 90 kmph, that can jump over terrain, jump in and out of combat? The white whale dictates when and where combat is to be decided.



There's a reason this color scheme makes people sweat.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 10 March 2013 - 03:32 AM.

[Wrenchfarm]

I love that the counter to the RVN-3L is to be an amazing marksman with a single shot ballistic you have to hit multiple times with.

Meanwhile he just circles and holds down his skill-streaks.

You don't see ANYTHING wrong with that? I say this as a pretty decent shot (my favourite mech is my 9M with 3xPPCs, I've stomped out many 3Ls in my time).

When you need an abundance of skill to defeat a tactic that requires none, something has gone wrong in the balance.

And I'm so sick of people defending their White Whales. Guess it's time to strap some SRMs to my A1 again and remind you all why it's so overpowered.

[Vassago Rain]

Wrenchfarm, on 10 March 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

I love that the counter to the RVN-3L is to be an amazing marksman with a single shot ballistic you have to hit multiple times with.

Meanwhile he just circles and holds down his skill-streaks.

You don't see ANYTHING wrong with that? I say this as a pretty decent shot (my favourite mech is my 9M with 3xPPCs, I've stomped out many 3Ls in my time).

When you need an abundance of skill to defeat a tactic that requires none, something has gone wrong in the balance.

And I'm so sick of people defending their White Whales. Guess it's time to strap some SRMs to my A1 again and remind you all why it's so overpowered.

The A1's made going cave on forest something only the newest or boldest would ever consider. The cat cave, where the white whales live.

[Wrenchfarm]

Vassago Rain, on 10 March 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

The A1's made going cave on forest something only the newest or boldest would ever consider. The cat cave, where the white whales live.

Going cave in a Whale can't fail. You either eat them in the cave, or flank them from behind when they engage the rest of the team.

TACTICAL SKILLS.

[Vassago Rain]

Wrenchfarm, on 10 March 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

Going cave in a Whale can't fail. You either eat them in the cave, or flank them from behind when they engage the rest of the team.

TACTICAL SKILLS.

I don't think there's anything in the game that draws aggro quite like a white catapult. It doesn't matter what variant it is. It's a catapult, and it's white? KILL IT WITH FIRE, BEFORE IT KILLS US! White and black on the cat is like dartfrog skin. It signals death. Stay away, or put it down as fast as possible.

I've even had plenty success drawing agro in a white atlas. This, the cave, and the natural instict to put cats down before anything else, all pretty much show the mech's had serious effects on the game.

[Terror Teddy]

Vassago Rain, on 10 March 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

Each ton of SRM ammo is 250 damage. I take 8 tons on my catapult, and have been since they made jumpjets useful..

So that's...2000 damage, best case scenario. Assuming you have the usual terrible hit detection, you'll do maybe 1500 total with these, if all hit. A more likely scenario is 1000+ damage, 3 dead mechs, or that you die before you can even use up a ton of rockets.

A funny slightly off-topic comparison.

8 tonnes of MG damage is 640 damage to the SRM's 2000.
If we use 6 mgs like X6 SRM6 it takes 266 seconds to do that damage

But, back to the A1. Yea, it is a powerful one trick pony but anyone saying it is not terrible limited or have weaknesses is a fool. It is not an overpowered mech - it is a severly limited mech and this is one of FEW combinations available for it.

Edited by Terror Teddy, 10 March 2013 - 04:00 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Terror Teddy, on 10 March 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

A funny slightly off-topic comparison.

8 tonnes of MG damage is 640 damage to the SRM's 2000.
If we use 6 mgs like X6 SRM6 it takes 266 seconds to do that damage

But, back to the A1. Yea, it is a powerful one trick pony but anyone saying it is not terrible limited or have weaknesses is a fool. It is not an overpowered mech - it is a severly limited mech and this is one of FEW combinations available for it.

How is using the supreme short-ranged weapon on a Sonic fast platform, with assault mech durability (bodyshape), and jumpjets for ninja mobility, somehow a weakness? It's an apex mech. Everybody bows to it, and would rather go somewhere else.

I'm a catapult hunter, and I always have to pray for the 50% hit reg problem to befall the A1s. Rememeber this. When they fix that, with state rewind for missiles, and you suddenly put out 90 damage for real each alpha?

There will be blood.

[Terror Teddy]

Vassago Rain, on 10 March 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

How is using the supreme short-ranged weapon on a Sonic fast platform, with assault mech durability (bodyshape), and jumpjets for ninja mobility, somehow a weakness? It's an apex mech. Everybody bows to it, and would rather go somewhere else.

-It is still limited to 78km/h
-Shoot off an ear and 50% firepower is GONE
-Shoot two of them and it's USELESS
-Must get in range
-Shoot legs for crippling it's speed and possible ammo explosion

Thats a few points. Depending on map this mech is either very good or very bad and it also depends on the enemy teams awareness of what is where.

If an A1 is visible it should be a priority target for the team before it get's close or at least crippled.

Yes, it's powerful up close and nimble with turn radius but ignoring it's weaknesses is not something one should do - it's a close combat apex predator with several weaknesses.

[Vassago Rain]

Terror Teddy, on 10 March 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

-It is still limited to 78km/h
-Shoot off an ear and 50% firepower is GONE
-Shoot two of them and it's USELESS
-Must get in range
-Shoot legs for crippling it's speed and possible ammo explosion

Thats a few points. Depending on map this mech is either very good or very bad and it also depends on the enemy teams awareness of what is where.

If an A1 is visible it should be a priority target for the team before it get's close or at least crippled.

Yes, it's powerful up close and nimble with turn radius but ignoring it's weaknesses is not something one should do - it's a close combat apex predator with several weaknesses.

No, it moves much faster than that, because speedtweak.
The big engine lends it extreme agility.
The ears are high up.
My cat isn't 'visible.' I can climb terrain, run behind, ambush throug the cave or tunnel, take the long way around... A good cat is the last mech you identify, or if they're in a pack, the first and only one you identify.

All this talk of 'weak spots.' You wanna shot my legs? I'll blow you up with 90 damage strikes in the meantime. Oh, you don't want to shoot my legs anymore? What about my ears? I have 45 alphas in each, and immense mobility. I can and will attack you from the sky, and jump over terrain to cool down, because you can't follow me.

[Lightfoot]

6 PPCs.

Well at the moment at least MWO has no Heat Cap. If it did 6 PPC or 4 ERPPC would place the mech at the Heat Cap, fire again with say 40%+ residual heat and the mech's engine explodes. Except they would need to add exploding engines to MWO. Anyway, MWO is too kind to players hitting the Override Automatic Shutdown button.

Best config for the CPLT-A1 is actually 2 LRM 15 or 20's and 4 SSRM-2's. If you fear ECM you can go 4 SRM-4's.

The Raven ECM is a nice mech, but hardly what you would call "Cheese". I don't pilot one, but they don't instantly win when I take one on in a battle.

[Vassago Rain]

Cling to this for now, while I assassinate fat stacks of people every game, or die in minutes myself. Remember this defense when they give the same treatment to missiles as they just did to lasers.

When I can always blow up your atlas in two 90 damage shots, are you gonna claim the ears defense still?

[Idolo]

When the major concern during a match is 'where is the splatcat' and not 'where is the assault' there's a balance problem.

The simple fact is on all of the maps except Alpine there's more then enough cover to get in the face of the opposing team before they have a chance to ear or leg you.

[Op4blushift]

Terror Teddy, on 10 March 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

-It is still limited to 78km/h
-Shoot off an ear and 50% firepower is GONE
-Shoot two of them and it's USELESS
-Must get in range
-Shoot legs for crippling it's speed and possible ammo explosion

Thats a few points. Depending on map this mech is either very good or very bad and it also depends on the enemy teams awareness of what is where.

If an A1 is visible it should be a priority target for the team before it get's close or at least crippled.

Yes, it's powerful up close and nimble with turn radius but ignoring it's weaknesses is not something one should do - it's a close combat apex predator with several weaknesses.

1. 78 kph is faster than basically all assaults bar the Awesome 9M and PB and A1s rip apart atlai like they're nothing. Also, even if you're in a medium that goes 100kph it still takes a while for you to actually get far enough so that you're past the effective range of the SRM (by which time you'll have taken an alpha or two which will either completely cripple you or just destroy you completely).
2. Oh yeah just a 45 POINT ALPHA left no worries m8.
3. By which time its already completely destroyed most of your mech or half your team is trying to kill it while the rest of their team is ignored.
4. Yeah, but 78kph will get them there in no time (unless its Alpine of course) and A1 pilots are usually smart enough not to charge straight into the enemy by themselves.
5. Legs can have almost have as much armor as the CT if the pilot wants it too. But yes most people lower the leg armor so this is an okay tactic if you can do it while your face is getting splattered by srms.

Edited by Op4blushift, 10 March 2013 - 04:28 AM.

[Teralitha]

This topic is useless and a complete waste of time to bother reading. Move to the jettisonned forums.

[Jay Kerensky]

Wrenchfarm, on 10 March 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

I love that the counter to the RVN-3L is to be an amazing marksman with a single shot ballistic you have to hit multiple times with.

Meanwhile he just circles and holds down his skill-streaks.

You don't see ANYTHING wrong with that? I say this as a pretty decent shot (my favourite mech is my 9M with 3xPPCs, I've stomped out many 3Ls in my time).

When you need an abundance of skill to defeat a tactic that requires none, something has gone wrong in the balance.

And I'm so sick of people defending their White Whales. Guess it's time to strap some SRMs to my A1 again and remind you all why it's so overpowered.

And is everyone using an SRM Cat? No. They die like any other mech, and yes it's almost as if it's worse when your ticket is punched if it was by an SRM Cat, but they still die.
They don't particularly make me worried unless I see some decent piloting skill being used - then I have a little panic attack (and aim for the arms).
Don't make the mistake of assuming a no skill level just because of a weapons system.

[KinLuu]

There is only one build that truly counters SRM A1s. The 3D jumpsniper. Everything else gets eaten, unless they are extremely good shots.

One (or even better: two) SRM A1s have such great burstdmg potential that they can eliminate one or two mechs, before even getting in danger of overheating. They are a true terror in the PUG hunting grounds, because one or two mechs down normally means the match is decided.

I feel SRMs are just to strong at the moment. They should have increased reload times, with the same heat/time.

[Adridos]

Jay Kerensky, on 10 March 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

And is everyone using an SRM Cat? No.

Well, when it comes to competitive scene, they are really overrepresented.

[Terror Teddy]

Quote

1. 78 kph is faster than basically all assaults bar the Awesome 9M and PB and A1s rip apart atlai like they're nothing. Also, even if you're in a medium that goes 100kph it still takes a while for you to actually get far enough so that you're past the effective range of the SRM (by which time you'll have taken an alpha or two which will either completely cripple you or just destroy you completely).

Of course it's faster - It's a HEAVY - they ARE faster than assaults.

So you are saying that because assaults are slower and mediums will have problems FLEEING fast enough there is no co-ordinated way to take down a heavy with XL engine before it becomes a threat?

Or getting ANOTHER heavy with the same speed and possible firepower to INTERCEPT the A1 before it gets to close to the assaults.

Quote

2. Oh yeah just a 45 POINT ALPHA left no worries m8.

Of course not - but how many chassis do MWO have where ALL their weapons are in 2 locations ONLY. Not many.

Quote

4. Yeah, but 78kph will get them there in no time (unless its Alpine of course) and A1 pilots are usually smart enough not to charge straight into the enemy by themselves.

And this is why one has scouts, to mark that sucker for LRM's or TAG him.

Quote

5. Legs can have almost have as much armor as the CT if the pilot wants it too. But yes most people lower the leg armor so this is an okay tactic if you can do it while your face is getting splattered by srms.

You know - they CAN be shot when they are OUTSIDE of 270 meters - might not be destroyed but most likely damaged and more easily damaged later.

Nothing changes the fact that the hull is limited so the splatcat becomes a onetrick pony that WORKS but to say the chassis is OP is not right.

Dangerous: Hell Yea.
Overpowered?: No