16 replies to this topic

[blinkin]

this may seem a little off topic to start but just be patient.

i hate streaks. they ruin light vs. light combat. many have said ECM is the real problem or that it is the combination of ECM and streaks, but before ECM was around my energy build light mechs got screwed just as hard by jenners with streaks. i would like to have at least some reasonable chance to beat another light mech without being forced to use one weapon. before the mech with the most streak launchers won, now it is the mech with ECM and the most streak launchers. regardless my energy build jenners get screwed very thoroughly by light mechs that in some cases appear to be pilotted by really dumb bots.

this is not a solution but i think it will help.

bring back the:

• 10 heat PPC
  
• 15 heat ERPPC

AND


within 300m give PPC and ERPPC the full ECM effect. by this i mean they would also jam missile lock for 4 seconds on any target hit within 300m. i actually have to aim my ERPPC on my jenner so i think it is only fair that a weapon that requires much more skill to use and produces far more heat be given some sort of advantage. i do not want the effect for long range because i think it would hit LRM mechs too hard, but i would like some chance to beat streak catapults and the vast numbers of streak light mechs with SOMETHING BESIDES STREAKS. i would like some choice besides run away or die.

this does not preclude an actual streak rework that i think is very desperately needed:
http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Edited by blinkin, 21 March 2013 - 12:12 PM.

[Torquemada]

I like that idea for them to jam guidance computers and so missile locks, great call. But why limit it to ER/PPC hits within 300m? I could understand limiting it to nominal range, beyond which the particle ball starts losing energy and so might not have the disruption effect. I would suggest it should be extended to full damage range, so with PPC's under 90m they no longer have the full effect due to the plasma not yet fully actualising, which is probably why they do less damage the closer they get.

Am I right in thinking SSRM's have been changed with the latest patch? I hadn't played my 3L for a while until last night and it seems to me that SSRM's now have a much greater spread rather than always seeming to hit centre torso if fired in the front or rear 90° arc? Mine certainly seemed to spread at least visually and hit other components including the legs, so perhaps they have been tweaked a big. I will test them on the practice map later to see if they spread against a stationary target (it's hard to persuade the other team to stand still in game )

Edited by Torquemada, 13 March 2013 - 04:05 AM.

[blinkin]

Torquemada, on 13 March 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

I like that idea for them to jam guidance computers and so missile locks, great call. But why limit it to ER/PPC hits within 300m? I could understand limiting it to nominal range, beyond which the particle ball starts losing energy and so might not have the disruption effect. I would suggest it should be extended to full damage range, so with PPC's under 90m they no longer have the full effect due to the plasma not yet fully actualising, which is probably why they do less damage the closer they get.

i was trying to keep the PPC / ERPPC from being able to fully suppress LRM. LRM launchers get stopped enough without being randomly jammed by sniper shots from across the map.

that part of the suggestion was completely for balance purposes.

[FrostCollar]

Do I think the PPCs could stand to have another detrimental effect for targets that it his that don't have ECM? Yes.

Is this too powerful? Yes. ECM's current effects are too powerful and I'm glad that changes are being looked into. Adding those effects to other things is not a good idea.

This is the same idea that led to PPC's current effects on ECM. If Streaks are overpowered (I say yes) then change the streaks. Don't take an unrelated weapons system and give it additional anti-Streak effects. Doubly so as the mechs that suffer the most from Streaks (light mechs without ECM) usually don't have PPCs.

[blinkin]

FrostCollar, on 13 March 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

Do I think the PPCs could stand to have another detrimental effect for targets that it his that don't have ECM? Yes.

Is this too powerful? Yes. ECM's current effects are too powerful and I'm glad that changes are being looked into. Adding those effects to other things is not a good idea.

This is the same idea that led to PPC's current effects on ECM. If Streaks are overpowered (I say yes) then change the streaks. Don't take an unrelated weapons system and give it additional anti-Streak effects. Doubly so as the mechs that suffer the most from Streaks (light mechs without ECM) usually don't have PPCs.

PPC are seen as OP lately because they have had a very drastic reduction in heat:

• PPC = 8 heat
  
• ERPPC = 11 heat

i am advocating a return to their old heat profile to balance out this bonus. and since when are the current ECM effects too powerful? it gives LRM mechs a chance to do their job again.

currently it is 4 seconds of disabled ECM. in most cases that is just enough time to get a lock and fire, but your missiles will lose lock long before they hit. if a non ECM mech wishes to use locked missiles they must get a single shot direct hit for at least 8 heat to buy them 4 seconds of lock. <-this does not seem OP.

[Xerxys]

I love this idea. It allows for PPC snipers to have an actual purpose in the game. Hitting light mechs at 810 meters is really tricky, but you can do it. Hitting that catapult running LRMs and screwing him over because his targeting is jacked would be priceless.

edit: I should say that it allows for sustained PPC snipers to have more of an impact on the game. I may not top the charts in my AWS 9M, but at least I screwed over as many people as I could and tried to defend my team as much as possible.

Edited by Xerxys, 26 March 2013 - 06:55 AM.

[Xerxys]

blinkin, on 13 March 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

i was trying to keep the PPC / ERPPC from being able to fully suppress LRM. LRM launchers get stopped enough without being randomly jammed by sniper shots from across the map.

that part of the suggestion was completely for balance purposes.

I actually see this as they now have to guesstimate on a non locked shot where the target will be. Not to mention that they can hide behind terrain to avoid that pesky sniper and still get their target locked shots off.

Edited by Xerxys, 26 March 2013 - 06:58 AM.

[Xerxys]

FrostCollar, on 13 March 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

Do I think the PPCs could stand to have another detrimental effect for targets that it his that don't have ECM? Yes.

Is this too powerful? Yes. ECM's current effects are too powerful and I'm glad that changes are being looked into. Adding those effects to other things is not a good idea.

This is the same idea that led to PPC's current effects on ECM. If Streaks are overpowered (I say yes) then change the streaks. Don't take an unrelated weapons system and give it additional anti-Streak effects. Doubly so as the mechs that suffer the most from Streaks (light mechs without ECM) usually don't have PPCs.

I see this as expanding on the current PPC effect. I personally wouldn't mind PPCs having a chance to temporarily blur your hud too. It is the way EMPs work. It will affect anything that isn't specifically designed to resist such attacks.

[StalaggtIKE]

Did I understand you correctly, you're running PPC on your Jenner? PPC do not work well vs lights. Not questioning your aim, just an observation. I do not believe PPC got the HSR treatment.

[blinkin]

StalaggtIKE, on 26 March 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Did I understand you correctly, you're running PPC on your Jenner? PPC do not work well vs lights. Not questioning your aim, just an observation. I do not believe PPC got the HSR treatment.

for a long time they didn't because of wierd firing lag effects, but recently they gave me the ability to aim without having to line up bombing runs. so it works very well. it is almost enough to level the playing field with streak light mechs. now i can actually face down and beat the really dumb ones.

10 points of localized damage per hit, and with the hit and run nature of light mech combat the high heat becomes much less important. the heat was very managable even back when the ERPPC generated 15 heat per shot (i just wasn't allowed to aim at other light mechs back then). 12 double heatsinks is all i need. i still have to be careful during heavy combat not to shut myself down but the 10 points of direct single hit damage are worth it.

Edited by blinkin, 26 March 2013 - 09:11 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

blinkin, on 26 March 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

for a long time they didn't because of wierd firing lag effects, but recently they gave me the ability to aim without having to line up bombing runs. so it works very well. it is almost enough to level the playing field with streak light mechs. now i can actually face down and beat the really dumb ones.

10 points of localized damage per hit, and with the hit and run nature of light mech combat the high heat becomes much less important. the heat was very managable even back when the ERPPC generated 15 heat per shot (i just wasn't allowed to aim at other light mechs back then). 12 double heatsinks is all i need. i still have to be careful during heavy combat not to shut myself down but the 10 points of direct single hit damage are worth it.

I wish I've had such results. Sometimes there is no firing lag effect, other times it is. They can be so unreliable in light vs light.

[DeadlyNerd]

Before I say how flawed this concept is lets look at a very familiar situation.

lance of 4 lights

While jamming them all full on streaks would cause nightmare to anyone who they stumble upon lets for a moment assume that 1 has a PPC.
Now, against other lights, sure np. Jams missile lock and the better shot wins the game.

Now for a completely different situation, light vs big bad awesome 9M. That thing has 3 SSRMs by default. Even if only 2 lights were on the awesome, with 1 having the PPC, he'd be near defenseless against them.
Goes without saying that many heavier mechs have SSRMs just for defense against lights.

I guess this little demonstration explained everything.

What we really need is a module that increases the time required for the enemy mech to get a streak lock, and on top of that force the player to acquire streak locks after each fired streak.
Sure it may still make it harder for the heavier mechs but it's far better than being unable to shoot at all.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 27 March 2013 - 03:46 PM.

[blinkin]

bump

[blinkin]

DeadlyNerd, on 27 March 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

Before I say how flawed this concept is lets look at a very familiar situation.

lance of 4 lights

While jamming them all full on streaks would cause nightmare to anyone who they stumble upon lets for a moment assume that 1 has a PPC.
Now, against other lights, sure np. Jams missile lock and the better shot wins the game.

Now for a completely different situation, light vs big bad awesome 9M. That thing has 3 SSRMs by default. Even if only 2 lights were on the awesome, with 1 having the PPC, he'd be near defenseless against them.
Goes without saying that many heavier mechs have SSRMs just for defense against lights.

I guess this little demonstration explained everything.

What we really need is a module that increases the time required for the enemy mech to get a streak lock, and on top of that force the player to acquire streak locks after each fired streak.
Sure it may still make it harder for the heavier mechs but it's far better than being unable to shoot at all.

ECM already screws that awesome pretty hard. also in general 4 mechs should beat 1. if you are outnumbered you should lose in most cases.

will this effect some assaults, yes. will it hit light mechs much harder, yes. as pointed out before mounting a PPC on a light mech is seen as unusual.

the most common scenario to come out of a change like this is that heavy and assault mechs occasionally get to disrupt streaks from light mechs, so they would take a bit less CT damage.

and TBH screw anybody who is too lazy to bother aiming at the target they want to kill. assault mechs get more armor, light mechs get manueverability, except when the other mech has streaks. then light mechs get nothing but death.

[blinkin]

bump

[blinkin]

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[blinkin]

bump since this thread hasn't seen air in a month.