30 replies to this topic

[Tarvitz]

This seems like an unfair combination when it comes to light mechs. At the moment a fair number of light classes are now capable of taking ECM. It effectively removes light mechs' biggest weakness, target locks from missiles both at close ranges. This might not be so much of a problem were it not for the fact the game does nothing to hinder a light mech from using the very weapons they are now immune to.

This seems like a very unfair advantage. Along with being able to stay completely out of sight of any large mech and block the weapons which can most effectively hit them, they can constantly destroy their front armour from any position. This makes the task of taking out anything from a medium to an assault extremely easy.
If you're going to give them ECM you could at least stop them from using the very weapons now useless against them.

Edited by Tarvitz, 27 March 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[MuadXDib]

The issue isn't whether they should be used together, obviously it's a broken weapon's platform. The fix should be on the missile damage/tracking/spread or the ecm functionality, rather than an abstract ban on having the two at the same time.

[astinius]

Again, if streaks didn't just target CT this combination wouldn't be nearly as OP or intimidating.

[Corvus Antaka]

ECM capable mechs should not be able to fire their streaks unless on counter, disrupt should disrupt their streaks too.

[blinkin]

ECM isn't the reason my energy build jenner takes it up the butt. ECM doesn't jam my lasers. i don't care whether lights have ECM or not. what i do care about is the fact that lights with streaks just get to hold down the trigger and fire constantly without fear of missing as long as they are in range.

any light mech with streaks beats any light mech without streaks. the only change ECM added was that now ECM mechs with streaks beat mechs with just streaks, but just like before all of the light mechs without streaks still get screwed just as hard.

i would like to be able to have a decent chance at winning against another light WITHOUT having to mount streaks.

[qki]

[REDACTED]

@Blinkin - not true. I've seen spiders with nothing but 3 ML do 600+ damage. In a straight up circle fight, one on one - maybe. But unless they also have a big speed advantage, you can leg them more effectively with lasers, than they can you with streaks, and then it's no longer a fight - just an execution.

Edited by Viterbi, 28 March 2013 - 12:39 PM.
Removed directed statements

[Voivode]

SSRM should do 1pt of damage. A weapon you don't have to aim should never do as much damage as one that requires aiming.

[Voivode]

qki, on 28 March 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

[REDACTED]

@Blinkin - not true. I've seen spiders with nothing but 3 ML do 600+ damage. In a straight up circle fight, one on one - maybe. But unless they also have a big speed advantage, you can leg them more effectively with lasers, than they can you with streaks, and then it's no longer a fight - just an execution.

ECM is fine. Streaks are pretty lame in their current implementation. I mean, seriously, a weapon that causes cockpit shaking with a fast recycle time that is a 100% guaranteed hit? And it does the same damage as the equivalent weapon that requires aiming (SRM)? I'd like to see SSRM fixed (perhaps a limit in number of degrees a missile will turn to track) in a way that makes it worth having but not the end all be all of light on light fights.

[blinkin]

qki, on 28 March 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

@Blinkin - not true. I've seen spiders with nothing but 3 ML do 600+ damage. In a straight up circle fight, one on one - maybe. But unless they also have a big speed advantage, you can leg them more effectively with lasers, than they can you with streaks, and then it's no longer a fight - just an execution.

true but i think very misleading. against any light mech without streaks i would say that i am above average, not great but i win more often than not. the recent adjustments that allowed ERPPC to be aimed at high speeds have made things much easier, but i rarely win against streak lights. in a mech class where speed and the ability to dodge are your primary defense a weapon that doesn't allow either to count is going to break the game.

i will admit i haven't been inclined to play the past few weeks, so i haven't seen how things work since the missile nerf. all of my comments are based on previous experience.

a weapon that does full damage ever 3.5 seconds WILL be much better than any weapon of similar damage that must be aimed. how many of you can actually say that you can consistantly hit with more than 25% of a laser shot against a light mech? my experience in matches suggests that the number who can accomplish this feat is statistically insignificant. yes other weapons can strike legs where streaks cannot, but even assuming that you can average 50% of your medium laser damage on a single leg (which is pretty impressive if they are not standing still) streaks are still far better. lets do some math:

medium laser does 1.25 DPS * a really good 50% hit rate (50% of all damage that can be dealt is dealt)
this comes out to about 0.625 DPS.

now lets look at streaks:

0.86 DPS without any aiming necessary, and this DPS rate is completely constant as long as the target reticle crosses over the target at some point every few seconds. so a barely conscious pilot with SSRM very thoroughly out damages a really good pilot with medium lasers for half as much heat (streak = 2 heat, medium lasers = 4 heat).

and i think it goes without saying that standard SRM2 are a joke in comparrison.

being able to leg the enemy is not enough. the only thing i have found that even comes close to leveling the playing field is the precision impact of my ERPPC. <-hitting another light mech with this while going more than 120kph takes just a little bit of skill.

Edited by blinkin, 28 March 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[CancR]

blinkin, on 28 March 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

true but i think very misleading. against any light mech without streaks i would say that i am above average, not great but i win more often than not. the recent adjustments that allowed ERPPC to be aimed at high speeds have made things much easier, but i rarely win against streak lights. in a mech class where speed and the ability to dodge are your primary defense a weapon that doesn't allow either to count is going to break the game.

i will admit i haven't been inclined to play the past few weeks, so i haven't seen how things work since the missile nerf. all of my comments are based on previous experience.

a weapon that does full damage ever 3.5 seconds WILL be much better than any weapon of similar damage that must be aimed. how many of you can actually say that you can consistantly hit with more than 25% of a laser shot against a light mech? my experience in matches suggests that the number who can accomplish this feat is statistically insignificant. yes other weapons can strike legs where streaks cannot, but even assuming that you can average 50% of your medium laser damage on a single leg (which is pretty impressive if they are not standing still) streaks are still far better. lets do some math:

medium laser does 1.25 DPS * a really good 50% hit rate (50% of all damage that can be dealt is dealt)
this comes out to about 0.625 DPS.

now lets look at streaks:

0.86 DPS without any aiming necessary, and this DPS rate is completely constant as long as the target reticle crosses over the target at some point every few seconds. so a barely conscious pilot with SSRM very thoroughly out damages a really good pilot with medium lasers for half as much heat (streak = 2 heat, medium lasers = 4 heat).

and i think it goes without saying that standard SRM2 are a joke in comparrison.

being able to leg the enemy is not enough. the only thing i have found that even comes close to leveling the playing field is the precision impact of my ERPPC. <-hitting another light mech with this while going more than 120kph takes just a little bit of skill.

This. Plus streak should lose lock every time they are fired and should only build lock again after cool down. Add in every 2 missles go low with the following going high, and do something similar for missiles either starting out curving in wide from the left or right with every few missiles going straight and you can actually cause missiles to have a decent spread damage.

[Corvus Antaka]

its sorta a question of effectiveness too. SSRM pilots lose nothing by taking SSRMS and gain everything, ability to gaurenteed hit and heavily dmg the enemy light reliably.

maybe ssrms are still just doing a little too much dmg for the 2 variant and for the fact they are so easy to use. Losing lock after every firing seems a very viable counter to me.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 28 March 2013 - 02:43 PM.

[focuspark]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 28 March 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

its sorta a question of effectiveness too. SSRM pilots lose nothing by taking SSRMS and gain everything, ability to gaurenteed hit and heavily dmg the enemy light reliably.

maybe ssrms are still just doing a little too much dmg for the 2 variant and for the fact they are so easy to use. Losing lock after every firing seems a very viable counter to me.

Loss of lockon would help balance SSRM a lot. Really sick of missiles taking a "J" path to hit me over a mech's shoulder.

[Swiffllama]

Wow, some of these posts are out there! SSRM's do a whopping 4 damage. You are talking about a weapon that does less damage than a medium laser. Yes, they lock on and track. That's what SSRM's are supposed to do. Once they lock they don't miss (TT that is). Taking away staying locked won't matter one lick. And for those that think SSRM hit every single time you are absolutely wrong. My hit % for streaks is just a touch over 80%. My hit % for medium lasers..... 94%!!!!! And the combo of ECM and SSRM is just a part of the game. Just fix ECM!!! I am really beginning to think that everyone that gets on here to cry for a nerf is just a horrible pilot boohooing because someone killed them. It's really getting to a sad point. Almost all of my kills in my 3L are laser kills. SSRM's do exactly what they are supposed to do and soften the opponent up. Want to see how "Overpowered" they are. Take a mech with 2SSRM's into the training grounds, find a medium size mech and stand in front of it and shoot. Let me know if you kill it before you run out of ammo.

Edited by Swiffllama, 28 March 2013 - 09:22 PM.

[Urdnot Mau]

Should mechs equipped with ECM be permitted to effectively use Streak SRM missiles?


Maybe you should've done a different question.

Should BattleMechs with Missile hardpoints be able the equip ECM ?

[Spirit of the Wolf]

Swiffllama, on 28 March 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

Wow, some of these posts are out there! SSRM's do a whopping 4 damage. You are talking about a weapon that does less damage than a medium laser. Yes, they lock on and track. That's what SSRM's are supposed to do. Once they lock they don't miss (TT that is). Taking away staying locked won't matter one lick. And for those that think SSRM hit every single time you are absolutely wrong. My hit % for streaks is just a touch over 80%. My hit % for medium lasers..... 94%!!!!! And the combo of ECM and SSRM is just a part of the game. Just fix ECM!!! I am really beginning to think that everyone that gets on here to cry for a nerf is just a horrible pilot boohooing because someone killed them. It's really getting to a sad point. Almost all of my kills in my 3L are laser kills. SSRM's do exactly what they are supposed to do and soften the opponent up. Want to see how "Overpowered" they are. Take a mech with 2SSRM's into the training grounds, find a medium size mech and stand in front of it and shoot. Let me know if you kill it before you run out of ammo.

They do 4 damage per hardpoint, cause cockpit shake when they impact the enemy mech (making it harder for them to hit the person firing the missiles), have a 0.5 second longer recycle time than a medium laser (0.475 seconds with Fast Fire), and they almost always hit the CT on enemy light mechs, which are usually the only other mechs which might have stood a standard fighting chance against the light firing them.
You introducing your 94% medium laser hit percentage is a complete Straw Man argument -- that could be because you're only aiming at large mechs that are moving slowly, and you rarely fire the medium laser. Or you could also just be an exceptionally skilled person using the medium laser. Either way, it doesn't matter, as even if you are a skilled person, not everyone is that skilled, and, regardless, the argument is completely unrelated to streak hit percentage, which, if the opponents have no AMS, is rather close to 100%.

You mentioned that you have a 3L.
Hop in a jenner for a while, then see how you're still doing.

Also, yes, missiles are meant to soften a target up. One problem: the jenner is now near-totally defunct because it can't use those missiles against mechs with ECM -- that'd be at least 90% of the 3Ls and 2Ds out there. Which can, conveniently enough, use their own streaks to rip the jenner's armor apart, and then laser it to death.


ECM is not the only problem, but yes it does need fixing.

The absolute biggest issue of all, IMO, is that the 3L has an engine size only a single rating below the jenner's max size. And the other 2 ravens are limited to an engine size 50 below that. I have a bit of an issue with that, and I suspect we'd see far fewer raven 3Ls out there if they weren't SO BLOODY DAMNED FAST.
While a 2X and a 4X can go only 113.4 KPH, (124.7 with Speed Tweak), by adding only 4 more tons to the engine size, the 3L can go 136.5 KPH, (150.2 with Speed Tweak).
This is a massive oversight, as the 3L is the most powerful variant in NEARLY EVERY WAY. There should not be one single variant which so vastly overshadows the other variants that the only reason for playing the other ones is to skill them out to play the other variant.
And I don't give a damn what Lore says. If it's broken, IT'S. EFFING. BROKEN.
Lore isn't the same as the gaming industry of the Internet. See, the difference lies in what they are:
One is a series of stories about war, and the improvements made during it to try to kill enemies faster, while the other is A GAME WHICH PEOPLE WANT TO ENJOY.

When more than 75% of the mechs of an entire weight class on the field are not only of one chassis, but a single variant of that chassis, and all of them with nearly identical loadouts, something is very wrong.

Please excuse the venom in my tone, but I've been playing since late July 2012, and I'm absolutely tired of seeing so many ravens. Seriously, before ECM came out, the raven-3L, the commando-2D and the jenner-D were the most common lights on the field. And that's fine, because there was more than one. At that time, the issue was with lagshielding and hit-tracking, but since both of those are supposedly now fixed, I see no problem with either:
giving the jenner-D ECM (why not? it's the most powerful jenner too, and raven pilots will finally start needing skill again) *eyeroll*
OR:
1. Capping the engine size of a 3L down to the same as the other two raven variants, or setting them all to 250 instead of 245.
2. Making it so that mechs cannot fire their own streaks unless their ECM is not in disrupt mode, that streaks lose lock once fired, and that they don't cause cockpit shake when they hit.
OR:
Making it so that ECM no longer prevents, delays, or impairs in ANY way the acquiring of locks for streak SRM missiles, regardless of whether the streaks are being used by the mech with ECM, or being aimed at it.

[focuspark]

Swiffllama, on 28 March 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

Wow, some of these posts are out there! SSRM's do a whopping 4 damage.

WTF game are you playing? SSRM did 5 damage up until mid-this-week. Now they do 3 damage; nearly always to CT and they can make 180 degree turns to hunt their targets down.

Seriously, know your stuff before you start spouting off.

Edited by focuspark, 28 March 2013 - 11:37 PM.

[blinkin]

Swiffllama, on 28 March 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

Wow, some of these posts are out there! SSRM's do a whopping 4 damage. You are talking about a weapon that does less damage than a medium laser. Yes, they lock on and track. That's what SSRM's are supposed to do. Once they lock they don't miss (TT that is). Taking away staying locked won't matter one lick. And for those that think SSRM hit every single time you are absolutely wrong. My hit % for streaks is just a touch over 80%. My hit % for medium lasers..... 94%!!!!! And the combo of ECM and SSRM is just a part of the game. Just fix ECM!!! I am really beginning to think that everyone that gets on here to cry for a nerf is just a horrible pilot boohooing because someone killed them. It's really getting to a sad point. Almost all of my kills in my 3L are laser kills. SSRM's do exactly what they are supposed to do and soften the opponent up. Want to see how "Overpowered" they are. Take a mech with 2SSRM's into the training grounds, find a medium size mech and stand in front of it and shoot. Let me know if you kill it before you run out of ammo.

http://mwowiki.org/w...Range_Missile_2 :
Streak SRMs are homing and cannot be fired without a lock. All streak missiles have a 100% chance to hit unless the target 'Mech moves behind cover or out of the 270m range of the missiles. However, not all missiles will home in on the same section.

the only reason your streak accuracy is less than 100% is because you are firing at targets that are out of range or you are trying to fire at targets that you DO NOT have direct line of sight on.

laser accuracy numbers are highly inflated because it counts any glance blow of the beam as a hit. it doesn't matter if you did a grand total of 0.3 points of damage, that is still defined as a hit.

streaks are free damage for almost no effort. you just need to sweep your crosshairs over the target once every few seconds, and unlike lasers you do not need to be aiming at the target when you fire nor do you need to hold the crosshairs on the target for 0.50 - 1.00 seconds to deal full damage.

your 94% is a very well known lie. i am not accusing you of lieing i am saying the stats lie. i imagine most players have laser accuracy of at least 80%. not because they are super 1337, but in reality because with a beam length from 0.5 to 1.0 seconds it is insanely easy to hit with at least some of it.

i have a 91.46% accuracy with my medium lasers at 600 hits my damage is 1,388. last i checked medium lasers did quite a bit more than 2 damage per hit.

my accuracy with most other weapon types is closer to the 40% level + or - about 3%.

sorry i tried to post a screen shot of my stats as proof but the post editor wouldn't allow me for some reason, but if you would like more proof look at your total damage done and divide that by your number of hits.

Edited by blinkin, 29 March 2013 - 01:00 AM.

[CancR]

focuspark, on 28 March 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

Seriously, know your stuff before you start spouting off.

The Horrible Irony, these words coming from you of all people. Mech pilots in class mech bays shouldn't fire ballistics

[focuspark]

CancR, on 29 March 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

The Horrible Irony, these words coming from you of all people. Mech pilots in class mech bays shouldn't fire ballistics

? lol

[movingtarget]

ssrms need to lock onto ecm mechs even if it takes 2 or 3 times longer to lock,