19 replies to this topic

[Elementary3]

Hi to All.
I'm new to this game but I like it very much.

IMHO heat balance is poor, because heat sink can dissipate only 0,1 HPS. So, for balance my PPC, for example, I need 27 heat sinks. It must be joke? I think this is a reason why energy oriented mechs (like AWESOME) underpowered in comparison with ballistic mechs. It's impossible to achive good sustained DPS on heavy energy weapons.

That is my suggestion.
Each heat sink can dissipate, saying, 0.3 HPS. Engine generates heat, dependently on moving speed. On full throttle it generates same heat how many can dissipate installed heat sinks. While no moving it generates, saying, 30% of maximum heat. In down mode engine produce no heat.

What it gives.
1) Balance between energy and ballistic weapons.
So, for example, 1 PPC + 9 heat sinks ( 16 ton 12 slots) gives equal DPS per ton as 1 AC/5 + 2 heat sink + 3 ammo (13 ton 9 slots).
2) More mesh and fight tactics - you can shoose between firepower and mobility.

How do You think?

P.S. Sorry for my bad English.

[Karl Streiger]

The problem is the heat cap and the high rate of fire.

more dissipation will only cause more trouble...maybe with quirks n perks to make the AWS-8Q SHS quirky and give them a 0.11 HPS while reducing the heat production of his Kreuss PPCs.

But as a general modification...i have to say no

[Elementary3]

Karl Streiger, on 05 April 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

The problem is the heat cap and the high rate of fire.

Explain please?

Karl Streiger, on 05 April 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

more dissipation will only cause more trouble...

What trouble? For example?
Or you think that "fire - shut down - fire - shut down" sequence gives to player indescribable pleasure?

[Karl Streiger]

DAnGerKhUA, on 05 April 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

Explain please?

Or you think that "fire - shut down - fire - shut down" sequence gives to player indescribable pleasure?

Oh there are some guys in Stalkers that like that. 6 PPCs 18 Double heatsings...with 12 in Fusion gives them actual a
heat dissipation of 3,12 and a heatcap of 61.2 - right from the beginning..with Elite Bonus...we are talking about a heat dissipation of 3,59 and a heatcap of 73.44

That means that stalke is able to give 2 ore 3 alpha strikes. With your suggested increase of heat dissipation of 0.3 for single heat sinks...such player will simple switch to single heat sinks. tanks to endo steel they could even mount 22 heat sinks. each with 0.3 HPS...maybe the heatcap will be reduced...but it will give them the abillity to fire a alpha strike every 4 sec

But that SHS are not worth any moment to think about them is a old topic and was adressed several times.
Its quiete subjective but i like this for the most:
http://mwomercs.com/...reates-choices/

[Morderian]

i think what we need as an heat system would be low heat capacity but high dissipation and also heat penalties,so if you have lets say 10 DHS and fire 2 ppcs (10 heat like in TT for example purpose) you reach your maximum heat capacity but the heat will go away very quickly
if you the fire laser to it your heat will go over your capacities at beginning you only have slight debuffs like slower move speed and similar until shutdom, of course if someone is now firing 6 ppcs with only 10 DHS and now breachs his heatscale by a big ammount his pilot will be cooked which means death for him (with that we also could get rid of some overkill boats XD)

Edited by Morderian, 05 April 2013 - 05:34 AM.

[Elementary3]

Karl Streiger, on 05 April 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

Oh there are some guys in Stalkers that like that. 6 PPCs 18 Double heatsings...with 12 in Fusion gives them actual a
heat dissipation of 3,12 and a heatcap of 61.2 - right from the beginning..with Elite Bonus...we are talking about a heat dissipation of 3,59 and a heatcap of 73.44

Can't imagine how it's possible. With 6 PPC you can place on stalker only 8 additional double heat siks. With 12 on engine - it will be 20. Or you can place 20 sdt heat sinks + 4 on engine. So maximum you can get ~ 28x heat dissipation. Single PPC demands 9 heat sinks to full dissipation. So 28 heat sinks allow you to fire continuously with 3 PPC. Not more.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...04c338f6c82c2ce

Karl Streiger, on 05 April 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

That means that stalke is able to give 2 ore 3 alpha strikes. With your suggested increase of heat dissipation of 0.3 for single heat sinks...such player will simple switch to single heat sinks. tanks to endo steel they could even mount 22 heat sinks. each with 0.3 HPS...maybe the heatcap will be reduced...but it will give them the abillity to fire a alpha strike every 4 sec

Your calculations is wrong.

[Morderian]

he is not wrong so it works in the game an PPC stalker can give 2-3 alphas such an stalker has around 16 DHS that are equal to 20 (10 engine heatsinks are true double) + 9 (external heatsinks count 1,5) =29 standard heatsinks , you cannot fit so many standard heatsinks in an 6ppc stalker cause you dont have the tons for that (19 tons for external standard heatsinks) exept you use that small engine like in your build but that wont work cause it is to slow to actually retreat for cooldown so it will be shot to pieces quite fast, if it ever reaches the front before every ally is dead

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5df60a828e1f0ef
here an working ppcstalker build that thing is not cool but it gets 2-3 alphas out

Edited by Morderian, 05 April 2013 - 05:57 AM.

[Elementary3]

Morderian, on 05 April 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5df60a828e1f0ef
here an working ppcstalker build that thing is not cool but it gets 2-3 alphas out

How it's possible? Single alpha gives 6*8 = 48 heat. Maximum heat capacity (with elite ckill) is 70. Heat dissipation 3.27. After second alpha this mech goes to shut down. Sustained DPS 4.00.

And compare to
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...132c623e5bf01e8

Sustained DPS - 6.5. With 1.5 times lighter mech. Balance? Where?
Please show me ANY energy mech with sustained DPS more then 6?

[Karl Streiger]

Sustained DPS? What a crap load is this?

Imporant is that the mech fits you. When its sustainded dps is 0.1 but you like it everything is ok.

[Morderian]

who care about DPS if you have an 60 damage pinpoint alpha, enough firepower to erase an atlas centertorso armor in 2 salvos, the JM build you have there may be nice for DPS but the jäger has an big disadvantage in that he gets shot to pieces quite fast and you will not hit with every AC5 shot always the same spot that means yes you have high DPS but no big alphastrike

both builds have there advantages and disadvantages but in long time the stalker will kill more than your jäger cause he has simply the firepower to shoot small mech in one salvo to bits

but like Karl said important is how you mech is going for you theocrafting doesnt work in MWo that much cause not everybody has the same likings to mechs and Wepons and not everybody is good with every wepon

Edited by Morderian, 05 April 2013 - 06:59 AM.

[Elementary3]

Karl Streiger, on 05 April 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

Sustained DPS? What a crap load is this?

Imporant is that the mech fits you. When its sustainded dps is 0.1 but you like it everything is ok.

Good point. Balance? What is this? Who need this crap?

[Elementary3]

Morderian, on 05 April 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

both builds have there advantages and disadvantages but in long time the stalker will kill more than your jäger ....

85 ton mech kills more then 65 ton. Miracle!

Morderian, on 05 April 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

but like Karl said important is how you mech is going for you theocrafting doesnt work in MWo that much cause not everybody has the same likings to mechs and Wepons and not everybody is good with every wepon

I see. Dev's don't need balnce. That's it.

Edited by DAnGerKhUA, 05 April 2013 - 07:31 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

DAnGerKhUA, on 05 April 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

I see. Dev's don't need balnce. That's it.

With that behaviour you will hardly earn much friends.

DPS is really complete nonsense - for me - because when i really use my full DPS rate...i'm pretty sure that my Mech will live only seconds because the enemy will also be able to use his full DPS to cut me into pieces.

More important ist he WoE. Window of engagement...with a AWS-8Q that means ... appeart - aim - fire - cover...cool down.
Actual the game favours mOAR Alpha...its a pity...but it is the actual state...so...forget about HPS or DPS...squeeze a 4th PPC into that Awesome.

Or you want a challenge than create a high dps and high alpha build using different kind of weapons.

[Elementary3]

Karl Streiger, on 05 April 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

With that behaviour you will hardly earn much friends.

You throw my suggestion into bin and not even try to understand and calculate. So what behavior you wait?

Karl Streiger, on 05 April 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

More important ist he WoE. Window of engagement...with a AWS-8Q that means ... appeart - aim - fire - cover...cool down.

Slow assault mech need to cool 30 sec after each shot, while light, and medium can fire continuously without overheating?

Karl Streiger, on 05 April 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

Actual the game favours mOAR Alpha...its a pity...but it is the actual state...so...forget about HPS or DPS...squeeze a 4th PPC into that Awesome.

And I receive piece of crap with 200 average damage per battle.

Karl Streiger, on 05 April 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

Or you want a challenge than create a high dps and high alpha build using different kind of weapons.

So give awesome and stalker ballistic slots?

[Karl Streiger]

so you see some problems some of us did struggle even before the game hit alpha status.

you can mix lrm and srm with energy weapons. will give you some good alpha.

regarding lights they are pain try to adept n overcome.I have run the aws8q with damn hot inefficient dual ERPPCs and 5 MLAS in cb only with those shs. worked good vs heavy targets cause of high firing rate of the ERPPCs and good vs light cause of the laser scythe.

alternative was 4 large laser and three medium again only with shs.
duno how inefficient those builds are with endosteel and dhs available

[Elementary3]

Karl Streiger, on 05 April 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

so you see some problems some of us did struggle even before the game hit alpha status.

So since any suggestion from community = crap?

Karl Streiger, on 05 April 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

you can mix lrm and srm with energy weapons. will give you some good alpha.

I have run the aws8q with damn hot inefficient dual ERPPCs and 5 MLAS in cb only with those shs. worked good vs heavy targets cause of high firing rate of the ERPPCs and good vs light cause of the laser scythe.

alternative was 4 large laser and three medium again only with shs.
duno how inefficient those builds are with endosteel and dhs available

Please, show me at least one config of awesome with normal firepower, which can fight at least 30 secs without overheating - and I take my suggestion back.

Karl Streiger, on 05 April 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

regarding lights they are pain try to adept n overcome.

In proposed heat model lights can't fire and run at full speed simultaneously in long term. So they automatically became weaker and better balanced.

[MustrumRidcully]

Karl Streiger, on 05 April 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

The problem is the heat cap and the high rate of fire.

more dissipation will only cause more trouble...maybe with quirks n perks to make the AWS-8Q SHS quirky and give them a 0.11 HPS while reducing the heat production of his Kreuss PPCs.

But as a general modification...i have to say no

IF the heat capacity is a problem, lower it.

There is a very good reason we have 6 PPC Stalkers - since very few builds can hope to sustain their firepower anyway, the best thing to do is put out as much as possible in a short time frame, regardless of whether you need to cool off afterwards or not.

[Bobzilla]

The problem is people trying to find exploits. When this game was being designed, they didn't have 6 ppc stalkers in mind. So heat management (still to basic) kind of worked. There's no heat management in a PPC boat, (fire, fire shutdown, fire. shut down....) and it works. The whole heat system needs to be reworked so. I prefer DPS over greater alpha, and i feel the game should reward sustained DPS over high alphas, which it kind of does. Sure you can get a few kills with a ppc or gauss boat, but i find i get way more damage, with dual UAC/5's for example. And i don't have to just sit there and shoot every now and then and become totally useless in some situations.

[MasterErrant]

the whole conceptual system is based in the idea that a mechs heatsinks can dissipate X amount of heat per turn (X being the number of HS double for DHS) they shortened the turn to something like 3 seconds. but left the heat cycle at ten. (And reduced the effects of DHS even more. thereby effective reducing the heat sinks effeciency to 1/3. then they took out most of the negative side effects of overheating.

If I catch the comments from the old timers right. they made a major fundamental error in the base heat system and IGP doesn't want to take the time to fix it so we are screwed.

[MasterErrant]

Bobzilla, on 11 April 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

The problem is people trying to find exploits. When this game was being designed, they didn't have 6 ppc stalkers in mind. So heat management (still to basic) kind of worked. There's no heat management in a PPC boat, (fire, fire shutdown, fire. shut down....) and it works. The whole heat system needs to be reworked so. I prefer DPS over greater alpha, and i feel the game should reward sustained DPS over high alphas, which it kind of does. Sure you can get a few kills with a ppc or gauss boat, but i find i get way more damage, with dual UAC/5's for example. And i don't have to just sit there and shoot every now and then and become totally useless in some situations.

I agree with you...there are many small decisions the devs have made that make the exploits attractive from the skewed heat system to the scoring. IGP is making so much money on this "Beta" that I don't beleive they intend to allow PGI to fix the game.