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Ecm Again, Oh Noes...


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#1 ollo

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:37 AM

Now with all the bugs in the latest patch, the overnerfed missiles and other stuff wanting to be talked about, i see a signficant reduction of ECM QQ/rage/discussion. Time to change that!

As it has been several times before, Extra Credits hits the nail with one of it's topics:


So what is going wrong? Apart from various per-se imbalances with ECM because of the cheap weight/crit costs for a gigantic benefit, this equipment does add next to nothing on the receiving side's game experience besides frustration.

Well, PGI tries, but fails. We have BAP and TAG to counter ECM, as well as ECM itself. My take on why these options don't hit the nerve of counterplay as it's described in the video:
  • BAP: does only help in a small margin between the long range shield and short range shield effect of ECM. Usually the couple of meters are either crossed easily by the ECM mech or too difficult to keep in the heat of the battle. Even if one tried to do so, the ECM mech can usually identify the biggest threat and push towards him (mostly suitable for lights, these are the bigger nuiseance since bigger mechs can be hit more easily without SSRMs).
  • TAG: only useful in long range fights, is invalidated as soon as the ECM mech get's into close range. Also only an option for mostly static, big/slow mechs, lighter mechs can't really be tracked for a sufficient time (always assuming there is no moron behind the wheel of the ECM mech, otherwise it's already an easy kill). It also forces you to keep the crosshair on a mech, effectively rendering weapons with travel time useless most of the time (which also accounts for lock-on weapons, where it actually is a reasonable balancing cost-vs-benefit game mechanic).
  • ECM: the best option, but mostly nullified because your mech can't equip it and your own ECM mechs are far away. There also are numerous games where one side has no ECM while half the other team sports them. As ECM is not considered in matchmaking this adds to the frustration.
Apart from these not working attempts at counterplay, there are several other counterplay options degraded by ECM:
  • Light mechs / to some degree fast mechs: already quite hard to hit but offers the option to choose SSRM to come by these little suckers, a weapon that is often one of the worse choices in terms of firepower directed at larger mechs. Nullified by ECM, makes lights the most durable mech class in many cases - especially the Raven, but that might be due to additional bugs (when will these be fixed BTW?).
  • Long range sniping: already only countered a little bit by LRMs (apart from counter sniping), it at least forces the enemy into cover for a few moments. Nullified by ECM, although there's one of the rare occasions where TAG can be useful. But it often takes two mechs in cooperation that are taken out of the game for some time to come by one enemy that can easily avoid the whole effort by reversing throttle.
I'm not talking about ECM being OP here, which it surely is for various reasons. I'm talking about the effect it has on the overall gameplay experience. While the peak might be reached for A1s with LRM/SSRM where to only offensive choice they've left is often to bite their keyboard, it's also narrowing the options for mixed builds (i don't know how often i got chewed up by ECMSSRM Ravens in my Awesome originally designed as a light/medium hunter with 7x MLs and 3x SSRMs).


Besides competitive play (i think there the default is still 8x ECM on each team most of the time) that allows for deeper coordinated actions, ECM has nothing to add to the game for casual players besides negative effects (recieving side of couse). I get the idea they had with the whole information warfare stuff and how it would play out, but IMHO they still failed at every attempt to make it an interesting asset in terms of variety of tactical choices. It's used as an almost imprenetable team stealth field or personal shield in the majority of cases, and the information warfare boils down to luck and randomness (both of which aren't desirable in a skill-based or tactical game).

You expect the suggestion of a solution? I have none, it's also not my job and there are myriads of proposed solutions on the forums already on how to turn ECM into a less OP, balanced and fun mechanic that actually adds to the gameplay instead of taking from it. PGI only has to do their homework - which it has to do for months now i might add.

#2 Kaspirikay

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:39 AM

Ur name looks funney

#3 neviu

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:40 AM

this thread is funny

#4 Kdogg788

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:43 AM

If the graphics weren't so hazy at times even in what should be clear sightlines in good weather, than ECM wouldn't be as much of an issue. I play with everything maxed out as well and sometimes mechs at mid range are just way too hazy.

-k

#5 Mechteric

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:44 AM

View PostKdogg788, on 12 April 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

If the graphics weren't so hazy at times even in what should be clear sightlines in good weather, than ECM wouldn't be as much of an issue. I play with everything maxed out as well and sometimes mechs at mid range are just way too hazy.

-k


Turn your post processing to low, huge difference in visibility without sacrificing too much graphics with everything else at max

#6 Star Captain Obvious Kerensky

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:49 AM

It's going to be amazing how many posts in this thread totally miss the point the OP is trying to make and instead respond with "lrn2play newb".

If the mechanic is balanced or not is a side topic. What matters is, "Does ECM offer you more tactical choices for the person who doesn't have ECM". Setting your graphics to low and using TAG doesn't increase tactical choices, it forces them upon you

Edited by Eldragon, 12 April 2013 - 05:51 AM.


#7 MadPanda

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:50 AM

You should probably directly send that to the devs and hope for the best. A lot of smart stuff is said on the video, if only pgi would listen and learn.

#8 Viper69

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:58 AM

Actually some really good common sense things.

#9 Ransack

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 06:01 AM

View PostMadPanda, on 12 April 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:

You should probably directly send that to the devs and hope for the best. A lot of smart stuff is said on the video, if only pgi would listen and learn.


A lot of smart stuff has been said about ECM around here for months. They aren't going to listen, because they like it broken.

#10 p4g3m4s7r

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 06:07 AM

Ya, this video has gone around the forums before. There are a lot of things that seem to indicate the Devs are all very new to game development, or do not have seasoned managers. A lot of things seem to point to a lack of statistical analysis/tools being used by the devs as well. I think this game being good will very much happen by chance, but strangely, I have hope.

#11 Thoummim

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 06:16 AM

ECM ? I barely see one per game right now.

LL/ERPPC stalker on the other way...

#12 Twisted Power

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 06:17 AM

There is not a reduction. There is a proper thread for it under hottopic heatsink w/e.

#13 Reith Dynamis

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 06:24 AM

ECM needs to match the TT description, not the phony, lets blanket every ally from under radar BS, nor completely shut down srm/lrm locking when they are in range.

The only thing ECM should be doing is hiding the equiped mech from radar and increasing radar lock time for the mech.

Huge failure on part of PGI to keep this going. It would be a whole other matter if they would just say "look yes we have buffed ECM past its battletech standards but we are also buffing other items such as BAP,TAG, ETC, ETC." but they have not said that. No we need ECM nerfed.

Edited by Reith Dynamis, 12 April 2013 - 06:26 AM.


#14 ollo

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 06:39 AM

View PostTwisted Power, on 12 April 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

There is not a reduction. There is a proper thread for it under hottopic heatsink w/e.


Posted it there too, although my guess is that it's a "hot topic heatsink" in the sense of "they can let off steam there and we'll ignore what they say and do what we want".

#15 XSerjo

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 06:47 AM

What are you talking about? ECM needs a buff, there're so many counters! Poor ravens are going to disappear.

#16 FrDrake

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 06:54 AM

hammer did some number crunching and found that a team with more ECM than its opponent had a 54% win rate over a statistical set of something like 150 games. Counting cards gives a blackjack player only like a 52% chance of winning and you can get beat up in a casino for it.

Edited by FrDrake, 12 April 2013 - 06:55 AM.


#17 Vassago Rain

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:13 AM

I like it best when I DARE go into the pub with something that's not my DDC, and the team has 5 ravens. Not a single one knows how to switch to counter, so they friendly fire each other to death.

#18 ollo

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:18 AM

View PostXSerjo, on 12 April 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

What are you talking about? ECM needs a buff, there're so many counters! Poor ravens are going to disappear.


Not sure if trolling or just being sarcastic... ;-)

But really, this post is first and foremost about the worse gaming experience ECM introduced, not about it being OP or not. They could balance it out by a 50% chance that any ECM mech will blow up after 2 minutes, that's not going to make the experience better.

#19 Thoummim

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:41 AM

View PostFrDrake, on 12 April 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

hammer did some number crunching and found that a team with more ECM than its opponent had a 54% win rate over a statistical set of something like 150 games. Counting cards gives a blackjack player only like a 52% chance of winning and you can get beat up in a casino for it.



ECM was equiped on which mech ?

Its pretty important a DDC is way more dangerous than an ECM spider.

Also 150 games is not enough you need something like 20 000 games to start having a picture, and only the dev have acces to such stats.

Edited by Thoummim, 12 April 2013 - 07:46 AM.


#20 FrDrake

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:51 AM

View PostThoummim, on 12 April 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:



ECM was equiped on which mech ?

Its pretty important a DDC is way more dangerous than an ECM spider.

Also 150 games is not enough you need something like 20 000 games to start having a picture, and only the dev have acces to such stats.


Yes obviously the more data the stronger the statistic, which is why I included the sample size in the post. It did not distinguish which mech chassis had the ECM equipped, just how many were present.

And while a DDC is more powerful in a direct fire way, there are plenty of people here with 5D win rates of well over 50%.



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