35 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

I remember the day the Spider debuted. They were a nuisance, but easy to kill. Even today, they are a nuisance.. but are at least a bit more interesting in the current meta where there has been better pilots using them to a far more amusing degree.

However, in the light of ineptness and just taking a serious look at the variants, compared to their brethren the Spider is the least thought out chassis in the game... with respect to hardpoints.

Spider-5D
CT - 1 energy
RA - 2 energy

ECM was given to this variant.. which is the most logical considering all the best variants get it. However, it begs the question... if you don't factor in ECM, are the other variants comparable?

The short answer is NO.

Let's find out why...

Spider-5V
CT - 2 energy

So, the 5V is Centurion-light... it's great to zombie with on paper, except it simply doesn't have the armor to hold up like one. It begs the question however.. why does it have one less energy hardpoint than the 5D? If an energy hardpoint was added to an arm, would it be better than the 5D? I would doubt it... you would have more flexibility in your weapon options if you can place an energy weapon on the arms (like carrying a solo ERPPC).

Arm weaponry is hard to shoot off on a spider, given its profile... but not impossible...

Now you might say, if we had a 2-CT+1-RA energy Spider-5V, would it not be better than the 5D? Perhaps...

Consider this... clan weaponry will eventually cause a dramatic shift in the future meta-game (particularly missiles), but clan energy weapons are certainly very notable. For instance, the Clan ER Large Laser consumes 4 tons, 1 slot, instead of the current IS version, which is 5 tons, 2 slots. Other dramatic change will be be Clan ER PPC. The standard clan ERPPC is 6 tons, 2 slots instead of the IS version of 7 tons, 3 slots.

So, in some future, it may be possible to have the Clan ERPPC-torso Spider or the 2 Clan ERLL Spider-5V... of course, it should be asked in some "Ask the Devs" feature...

Also note that although the Spider-5V has more JJs to work with.. the extra 4 JJs that would be normally added would consume 2 tons... which is effectively is the same tonnage used for a medium pulse laser. Do people need the extra 4 JJs? I'm sure someone will share, but I don't believe that's justification for gimping the 5V in energy slots.

Now getting back on track, let's look over the Spider-5K.

CT - 1 energy
RA - 2 ballistic
LA - 2 ballistic

On paper, you would think this might be OP... having way more ballistic slots than normal... but with the state of MGs it is not. In fact, if you think of those two ballistic slots as really just 1 slot due to tonnage.. then you would see as MGs being the optimal choice for that design.

It is actually very unlikely to make the most of the slots, due to tonnage on ballistics in general, so 1 energy and "2 ballistic" would be balanced... if MGs were balanced in the first place.

Unfortunately, the best use of the Spider-5K is really just putting in an ER Large Laser or a Large Pulse Laser....

In sum, the Spider chassis is balanced poorly and ignoring MGs doesn't help the situation. Had Spiders even got a 4th variant, this would probably be a lesser-issue (like something that is 2 energy, 1 or 2 ballistic)... but this chassis is pretty much "limited" to those who know what to do with it. It is arguably the worst newbie mech chassis in the entire game.. even the Dragon, Awesome, and even Commando are salvageable. The Spider is a death trap for newbies, but it's more of a PGI mistake than anything else.

[White Bear 84]

Deathlike, on 22 April 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

It is arguably the worst newbie mech chassis in the entire game.. even the Dragon, Awesome, and even Commando are salvageable. The Spider is a death trap for newbies, but it's more of a PGI mistake than anything else.

Then pilot a mech that is not so much of a death trap and get a spider when your a better player..

p.s. The dragon is a great mech to play with, what are you talking about - i would even recommend it to newbies given its versatility.. ..certainly a great way to learn how to brawl properly, use ballistics and aim while moving fast..

[Jaded Jasper]

Giving all the spiders one extra energy hardpoint would help.

They can bounce around amusingly in the hands of a pilot comfortable with them, but that's not really enough to compete with other light mechs, and a bit more close range firepower would go a long ways towards making them more than a nuisance.

Edited by Jaded Jasper, 22 April 2013 - 07:22 PM.

[Deathlike]

White Bear 84, on 22 April 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

Then pilot a mech that is not so much of a death trap and get a spider when your a better player..

p.s. The dragon is a great mech to play with, what are you talking about - i would even recommend it to newbies given its versatility.. ..certainly a great way to learn how to brawl properly, use ballistics and aim while moving fast..

My only serious concern with the Dragon is that most new players are not exactly familiar with piloting a mech... so they pretty much get creamed by being overexposed. Eventually, they'll figure it out... but the Dragon is not the top of my list of "first choice" for starting mechs...

[Mypa333]

White Bear 84, on 22 April 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

Then pilot a mech that is not so much of a death trap and get a spider when your a better player..

p.s. The dragon is a great mech to play with, what are you talking about - i would even recommend it to newbies given its versatility.. ..certainly a great way to learn how to brawl properly, use ballistics and aim while moving fast..

I believe he's referring to the large CT of the dragon that makes you pop out of a group. I always charge at Dragons or Catapults if given the chance because it's fun/easy to take out front armor in a matter of seconds. So, in my opinion, Dragon is not a good mech for newbies.

On topic:I don't understand why did the devs cripple the Spider so much? 4 MGs ...really? only 2 lasers slots ?
And now with the latest patch, I get killed more easily in my 5D, legs are the first to disappear. Give us a variant that is worth the C-bills/MCs. A hero mech would be nice.

[Kamelkaze]

Spider 5D and Dragon 1C are overpowered.


Best regards from a Spider 5D and Dragon 1C driver.

[Curccu]

Well I wouldn't call 5D OP. I play one I love it, it's good but not OP.

OP is something raven was against other lights mechs few months ago.

[Kmieciu]

White Bear 84, on 22 April 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

Then pilot a mech that is not so much of a death trap and get a spider when your a better player..

Good players don't use crap mechs because the like to affect the outcome of a match. You won't make a big difference piloting a Spider.

I don't claim to be a good player, in fact I'm not probably in the top 1000. But even at my ELO level, I hardly ever see a Spider. Ravens and Jenners are the only light mechs I see.

I pilot a CTF-3D or JM6-DD and I never lost a duel with a Spider. I am able to leg it in one shot. A lone Spider is not fast enough to cap a base by itself. The only chance of winning for a Spider is base rushing with 2 or 3 of them and hope that the enemy does not have any fast mechs.

Edited by Kmieciu, 23 April 2013 - 02:39 AM.

[DemonRaziel]

Kmieciu, on 23 April 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

Good players don't use crap mechs because the like to affect the outcome of a match. You won't make a big difference piloting a Spider.

I don't claim to be a good player, in fact I'm not probably in the top 1000. But even at my ELO level, I hardly ever see a Spider. Ravens and Jenners are the only light mechs I see.

The Spider is in no way a crappy 'Mech. It's just not built primarily for a 1v1 brawls. It has, on the other hand, other benefits for its team (ECM, speed and JJs maneuverability).

But really... just as individual player ELO is not a good indicator for a team based game, theoretical 1v1 situations are not that good a way to analyze usefulness of a chassi.

[Corvus Antaka]

The spider is lethal and can kill any mech 1v1 with the right loadout.

[Kenyon Burguess]

Spiders are scout mechs, not brawlers or light hunters. while we can take down heavies and assaults its not an efficient use of our time to do so. with the largest engine available i do 150kph in my spiders. the ECM is nice but as long as i have that speed, jumpjets, and AMS i can do my job which is to keep a target lock while my allies destroy them. the D and K models aren't bad if you torso lock them so that everything lands on target at the same time and ive been able to tear up quite a few targets once the allies have turned a part cherry and those 4 machine guns hit that spot. the V and K model does have one advantage you can exploit, you can poptart and make sure you get picked up on sensors and then sit behind a building while the enemy wastes ammo trying to hit you. the enemy loves to shoot at long range with a sensor ping and rarely uses their eyes to verify the target is exposed. you can also exchange the word "building" with "mech", there is nothing more satisfying than getting the incoming missle alarm and short hopping over an enemy mech and stopping by his legs. the chat rage when an LRM boat clobbers his own ally is priceless.

[Imagine Dragons]

Dragons take some serious C-Bills to work out...


I have 12 +Fang/Flame/Champion...

They seriously need to allow me to make my arms cover my CT ...

[Das Wudone]

Deathlike, on 22 April 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

snip

alone and used in the hands of an amateur it is a death trap. spiders are not for the faint of heart or for those who like an abundance in firepower like the other lights. its made to be a reallyx3 mobile pure scout & harass chassis. if u like to play the role of just that then this mech is made for u.

however if in swarms of 2-4 in combination with any light, any variant of the spider is just as capable as other light mechs. their strength lies in that small profile and the fact that everyone ignores it. ofc if ur facing another light mech that might spell trouble for u. take note i said 'might'... the trick to fighting other lights in a spider is to go for the legs. all spiders have laser weaponry and thats incredibly efficient at taking down fast movers especially their fragile legs. just keep practicing with ur lasers and u can come out on top.

lastly u need good teamwork. i admit i dont run my spiders (except the 5D) unless i have a buddy or more to run with me. they are a lot of fun to run with in a team of good friends. just so u guys know my most favorite variant to run with friends is my 5K cos i get a crack out of it killing & disabling other mechs with mgs

[Deathlike]

BTW, I'm not against Spiders... I simply think that PGI screwed this mech up, both in weapon options (MGs) and hardpoints (5V vs 5D). I just want to bring attention to a mech that is not only anti-newbie friendly, but not even balanced correctly.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 April 2013 - 07:23 PM.

[Solomon Ward]

I wish PGI had skipped the Spider and went for the Venom instead.

The 5D is one of my favourite mechs ( definately my favourite light) and the one with my highest KDR.
5V needs the CT Hardpoints moved to the arms to be viable for me.

Eagerly awaiting the Hero version.

[Loler skates]

Das Wudone, on 23 April 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

alone and used in the hands of an amateur it is a death trap. spiders are not for the faint of heart or for those who like an abundance in firepower like the other lights. its made to be a reallyx3 mobile pure scout & harass chassis. if u like to play the role of just that then this mech is made for u.

however if in swarms of 2-4 in combination with any light, any variant of the spider is just as capable as other light mechs. their strength lies in that small profile and the fact that everyone ignores it. ofc if ur facing another light mech that might spell trouble for u. take note i said 'might'... the trick to fighting other lights in a spider is to go for the legs. all spiders have laser weaponry and thats incredibly efficient at taking down fast movers especially their fragile legs. just keep practicing with ur lasers and u can come out on top.

lastly u need good teamwork. i admit i dont run my spiders (except the 5D) unless i have a buddy or more to run with me. they are a lot of fun to run with in a team of good friends. just so u guys know my most favorite variant to run with friends is my 5K cos i get a crack out of it killing & disabling other mechs with mgs

Swarms of four of any light mech will kill other mechs.

Not to mention a swarm of four jenners or ravens is infinitely more dangerous.

If your argument to the Spider being crap is that having more of them against one enemy makes them non-crap then your argument is hugely flawed.

The enemy team gets a mech for each spider you field that isn't trash.

[LordDante]

Mypa333, on 22 April 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

I believe he's referring to the large CT of the dragon that makes you pop out of a group. I always charge at Dragons or Catapults if given the chance because it's fun/easy to take out front armor in a matter of seconds. So, in my opinion, Dragon is not a good mech for newbies.

On topic:I don't understand why did the devs cripple the Spider so much? 4 MGs ...really? only 2 lasers slots ?
And now with the latest patch, I get killed more easily in my 5D, legs are the first to disappear. Give us a variant that is worth the C-bills/MCs. A hero mech would be nice.

[Goldhawk]

Spiders work either as cappers or fast distractors. With the correct loadout, Spiders can be used as light snipers. They also work a high speed skirmishers.

[FunkyFritter]

The 5D is pretty good and has a niche, but the other variants are complete garbage. Hopefully in the future they all get access to specialized equipment similar to ECM, although the ballistic variant will be worthless until machine guns are useful.

[Kenyon Burguess]

Solomon Ward, on 24 April 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:

I wish PGI had skipped the Spider and went for the Venom instead.

I am hoping the hero mech is the venom, but it might not be out till 3055-57 timeline