57 replies to this topic

[Roadbuster]

As everyone knows, there are many complaints about poptarts, PPC and Laser boats and high alpha builds in general.
ACs and Gauss Rifles deal alot of damage too but they have 2 balancing factors which are weight/ammunition (basically weight too) and slots.
Energy weapons on the other hand are not heavy, don't require any ammunition, don't take up many slots and most mechs have a nice ammount of energy hardpoints. The balancing factor for energy weapons is heat.

The problem with the high alpha energy weapons builds is that they can fire many energy weapons at the same time without overheating. And that's where the actual heat system is not working as it should.
Every mech should have a fixed heat threshold which can not be changed by anything except the already existing pilot efficiencies boni.
If the informations about heat sink values are correct, every heat sink does not only accelerate heat dissipation but also increase heat threshold, which is wrong.

That's why, in order to reduce the ammount of alpha builds in favor of mixed loadouts, there should be a fixed heat threshold for all mechs and heat sinks should only speed up heat dissipation.

That way players couldn't fire many boated weapons at once, reducing pinpoint damage spikes.
Instead it would be possible to fire again faster the more heat sinks are installed in a mech. Deal the same ammount of damage over time, but with less spikes.
This could even enable PGI to set the value for DHS to the real 2.0 value.

I think this would make matches more interesting because players would have the chance to react to attacks instead of getting taken appart by 1-2 salvos.

Edited by Roadbuster, 25 April 2013 - 07:48 AM.

[Hammerfinn]

This could help with the balance issue, but could result in unexpected changes. I think extensive testing would be needed.

Edited by Hammerfinn, 25 April 2013 - 01:13 AM.

[Panimu]

Hammerfinn, on 25 April 2013 - 01:13 AM, said:

This could help with the balance issue, but could result in unexpected changes. I think extensive testing would be needed.

Luckily we're all participating in that testing! Goooooooo Beta!

[Skoll Lokeson]

Like a variant based "heat/cooling cap"? (Similar to the engine cap that was introduced to keep 'mechs from becoming OP by being too fast.)

[Joseph Mallan]

Heck since we have to fire twice to do the same amount of damage as was done on TT threshold should be doubled! I normally agree with you Road, but I design my Mechs to be able to fire as much as possible. making the heat threshold worse would cripple those of use who build a true Alpha build (A Mech that is designed to actually fire all its guns safely). I don't see anything wrong with folks packing their build to shutdown heat levels. They are taking the risk associated with that level of power, Let em.

Heck since we have to fire twice to do the same amount of damage as was done on TT threshold should be doubled! I normally agree with you Road, but I design my Mechs to be able to fire as much as possible. making the heat threshold worse would cripple those of use who build a true Alpha build (A Mech that is designed to actually fire all its guns safely). I don't see anything wrong with folks packing their build to shutdown heat levels. They are taking the risk associated with that level of power, Let em.

[Roadbuster]

Skoll Lokeson, on 25 April 2013 - 01:53 AM, said:

Like a variant based "heat/cooling cap"? (Similar to the engine cap that was introduced to keep 'mechs from becoming OP by being too fast.)

For example, yes.

Let's say a Jenner JR7-F with its 6 energy hardpoints could have a threshold of 25 heat.
That would mean if you equip 6 ML you could do 1 alpha strike creating 24 heat. If you do a second alpha strike after weapon cooldown you would overheat. If you had a total of 10 heat sinks and would fire the lasers one at a time you could go on firing them without overheating, as long as you stand still.
10SHS -> cooling 1Hps -> 1ML creating 1Hps
If you upgrade to DHS (@2,0) this would turn to 2Hps cooling enabling you to shoot 2ML every second without overheating.

An Awesome AWS-8Q in standard configuration has 28 SHS and its alpha creates 26 heat. Let's say this variant will get a heat threshold of 30. 1 PPC creates 2,67Hps and 28SHS cool 2,80Hps, so you could keep firing 1 PPC without overheating.
An Awesome AWS-9M creates 45 heat with an alpha strike and runs 20DHS. Let's give this variant a theshold of 35. This would mean it would overheat on a full alpha strike but could shoot its 3 ER-PPCs at once for 33 heat without overheating.
ER-PPC with 3,67Hps and 20DHS (@1,4) cooling 2,80Hps would mean this variant would overheat even if only shooting 1 ER-PPC at a time.
Now let's say DHS would cool with the real 2,0 value. This would mean a cooling rate of 4,00Hps enabling you to keep shooting that ER-PPC without overheating.

The heat threshold could be specific for every variant or only for different mechs.
Maybe the upgrade to DHS would increase the threshold by a fixed ammount or there could be a seperate upgrade for heat threshold.

Of course these are just examples.

[Roadbuster]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 April 2013 - 03:41 AM, said:

Heck since we have to fire twice to do the same amount of damage as was done on TT threshold should be doubled! I normally agree with you Road, but I design my Mechs to be able to fire as much as possible. making the heat threshold worse would cripple those of use who build a true Alpha build (A Mech that is designed to actually fire all its guns safely). I don't see anything wrong with folks packing their build to shutdown heat levels. They are taking the risk associated with that level of power, Let em.

Alpha striking is not the problem. I think the speed at which you can alpha and the ammount of weapons fired without overheating is the problem.
If you have a mech like the Stalker with 6 energy hardpoints equip 6PPCs and fire them all at once you should overheat.
Fire 3 of them and wait for heat to go down then fire another 3 would make the heat managable and give the target a chance to survive the peek around the corner.

[Hans Jorgenssen]

Roadbuster, on 25 April 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

Alpha striking is not the problem. I think the speed at which you can alpha and the ammount of weapons fired without overheating is the problem.
If you have a mech like the Stalker with 6 energy hardpoints equip 6PPCs and fire them all at once you should overheat.
Fire 3 of them and wait for heat to go down then fire another 3 would make the heat managable and give the target a chance to survive the peek around the corner.

This would be dependent on the number of sinks a Mech has though. If the 6 PPC boat has 40 sinks it should be able to fire twice and then shut down. Then shut down every time it alphas until I come up and kill it while it sleeps!

[MustrumRidcully]

I vote for this. Of course, they definitely need to increase t he heat dissipation, too, otherwise the system will probably lead to weird mechs that differ from their stock config by replacing standard with double heat sinks and making all weapons the next smallest category so they aren't crippled by heat.

Joseph Mallan, on 25 April 2013 - 03:41 AM, said:

Heck since we have to fire twice to do the same amount of damage as was done on TT threshold should be doubled! I normally agree with you Road, but I design my Mechs to be able to fire as much as possible. making the heat threshold worse would cripple those of use who build a true Alpha build (A Mech that is designed to actually fire all its guns safely). I don't see anything wrong with folks packing their build to shutdown heat levels. They are taking the risk associated with that level of power, Let em.

Heck since we have to fire twice to do the same amount of damage as was done on TT threshold should be doubled! I normally agree with you Road, but I design my Mechs to be able to fire as much as possible. making the heat threshold worse would cripple those of use who build a true Alpha build (A Mech that is designed to actually fire all its guns safely). I don't see anything wrong with folks packing their build to shutdown heat levels. They are taking the risk associated with that level of power, Let em.

You still can fire each weapon in an alpha only once, so no, you don't need a higher heat capacity. You need a higher heat dissipation, so that a build that was designed heat neutral in the table top is also heat neutral if it operates at the current rate of fires.

[topgun505]

I posted a suggestion earlier regarding the application of how heat is handled earlier in this part of the forum that covered the same issue. I think the heat threshold should not vary by chassis though. There should be a hard limit. You go over x heat you shut down. Right now with 6-PPC Stalkers being able to alpha twice prior to shutdown ... That tells me the current threshold is WAY too high.

[Vellinious]

Hans Jorgenssen, on 25 April 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

This would be dependent on the number of sinks a Mech has though. If the 6 PPC boat has 40 sinks it should be able to fire twice and then shut down. Then shut down every time it alphas until I come up and kill it while it sleeps!

Yes...YES! KILL IT WITH FIRE!!

Ahem, pardon me....

[3rdworld]

If your cap was around 40.

You would still need to bump DHS cooling to around .25 to make it work.

The low cap isn't there to reduce DPS, it is there to cause the switch from Alpha to DPS.

A cap of 40 would not remove PPC boating but would make it impossible to alpha them very often. With 4 PPCs you could alpha once then anything after that would need to be staggered, which is what you are aiming for.

The 6 PPC stalker is a bit of a misnomer. They exist sure, but they are not really the problem. The issue is mechs shooting 40+ alphas and doing it many times before they overheat. A low cap & high dissipation, will force you to either wait longer between shots, or stagger the dmg every once in a while.

Your 3PPC & Gauss 732 will still be good, but it won't be able to alpha all 3 ppcs every time. Probably every other time, but you are still greatly reducing the alpha ability of these mechs, which is a good thing imo. It also brings clan energy boats into check before they are even released. The 4 ERPPC War Hawk is supposed to overheat if it alphas. The current system, it wouldn't but with a cap of 40, it would. Though if it staggered it would be fine, which is what the TRO's said it had to do.

[Roadbuster]

Hans Jorgenssen, on 25 April 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

This would be dependent on the number of sinks a Mech has though. If the 6 PPC boat has 40 sinks it should be able to fire twice and then shut down. Then shut down every time it alphas until I come up and kill it while it sleeps!

That's the problem we have at the moment. Heat sinks also increase heat threshold. Something they were never meant to do as far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong).
It shouldn't be able to fire said 6PPCs at once without overheating. No matter how many heatsinks there are.
I don't know any mech, neither IS nor Clan which would be able to handle 6PPCs fired at once.

Take your GFX card as example. It might run without problems at 75°C under full load. Now take the heat energy the card builds up over a short period of time and imagine the chip core releases this built up heat at once. What will happen?
No matter how big your cooler might be, your chip will get too hot and maybe get destroyed because the surface of the core is too small to transport the energy to the cooler in the short ammount of time.
And this surface, the contact area between heat generating element and cooler is your heat threshold.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roadbuster, on 25 April 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

That's the problem we have at the moment. Heat sinks also increase heat threshold. Something they were never meant to do as far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong).
It shouldn't be able to fire said 6PPCs at once without overheating. No matter how many heatsinks there are.
I don't know any mech, neither IS nor Clan which would be able to handle 6PPCs fired at once.

Take your GFX card as example. It might run without problems at 75°C under full load. Now take the heat energy the card builds up over a short period of time and imagine the chip core releases this built up heat at once. What will happen?
No matter how big your cooler might be, your chip will get too hot and maybe get destroyed because the surface of the core is too small to transport the energy to the cooler in the short ammount of time.
And this surface, the contact area between heat generating element and cooler is your heat threshold.

Interesting way of looking at it Road. It is the TT mentality when Looking at heat I have, has me tracking with Hans. It was Fire, calculate total heat generated, then subtract your sinks from that to get your remaining heat. Here you shoot right up to 60 heat and yes should shut right down till you are back under your threshold. I think I am beginning to see what you are trying to tell an old codger like me!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 April 2013 - 07:10 AM.

[topgun505]

Just to put it in perspective.

The most PPCs ANY non-experimental/unique IS unit had in cannon is 4. The most ERPPCs any IS unit had is 3.

And even then those designs usually had significant heat problems.

Judging from that the heat threshold should be cut in HALF from what it is now.

[3rdworld]

Roadbuster, on 25 April 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

That's the problem we have at the moment. Heat sinks also increase heat threshold. Something they were never meant to do as far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong).
It shouldn't be able to fire said 6PPCs at once without overheating. No matter how many heatsinks there are.
I don't know any mech, neither IS nor Clan which would be able to handle 6PPCs fired at once.

A Warhawk (Masakari) could fire 6 ppcs without shutting down.

so could a Awesome 9M

Edited by 3rdworld, 25 April 2013 - 07:13 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

In this game that Warhark would need 90 sinks to handle just a single salvo! Warhawks don't carry PPCs its ERPPC or nothing.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 April 2013 - 07:16 AM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Poll is terribly biased. No option to say the idea is a really bad one but something else should be done to fix the underlying problem.

We need a graduated heat scale with tiered effects, not an artificially low heat cap.

[3rdworld]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 April 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

In this game that Warhark would need 90 sinks to handle just a single salvo! Warhawks don't carry PPCs its ERPPC or nothing.

4 ERs create the same heat as 6 stds, in TT. His inquiry was that no mech could shoot 6 ppcs. That is not true.

Edited by 3rdworld, 25 April 2013 - 07:26 AM.

[Ph30nix]

i have no problem with PGI testing a situation like this but first

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH ALPHA BUILDS!
secondly, a system like this would mean smaller mechs had a lower heat threshold then larger mechs, or it would have to be based off the engine size (which turns into almost the same thing) so you wouldnt see much differnce in the boats im sure are upsetting you
6 ppc.....

and if they can get off ONE shot without over heating that would be all they needed in fact your "fix" would make it easier for them since they would have less time to wait before firing their second shot since cooldown speeds would be increased.

also i dont know about you but anytime im dumb enough to let myself overheat when an enemy is firing at me that seems like a much larger draw back then ammo/weight limits....