46 replies to this topic

[MuKen]

Good game mechanics are ones that enhance the benefit you get from outplaying your opponents, not mechanics that lessen the advantage they get from outplaying you. We should not have a sensor that allows you to find an opponent who has successfully outmaneuvered and snuck behind you. Getting behind your opponent means somehow or another, you have outplayed them, the less benefit you get from doing so, the less this is a skill-based game.

This is far and away the best module, so everyone will carry it. So now it is generally simply not as good to get behind opponents in this game. That reduces the tactical level of the game as a whole.

Edited by MuKen, 23 May 2013 - 12:54 PM.

[Bloody Moon]

Oh yeah open another topic about this when we even have a dedicated, pinned feedback topic.

http://mwomercs.com/...seismic-sensor/

Not that hard to find.

[NinetyProof]

Yes ... it is OP ... and the point is? And by the time MWO goes public there might be 3 OP modules and you only have 2 slots ... what then?

That is the point. Also, you don't need a *team* of 8 to carry 8 of them ... Neither do you need a team of 8 players to carry 8 BAP. Once you move out of "single person" meta and into team meta, now you have choices and decisions to make.

On that topic, if *everybody* has that, they might not be able to target decay or sensor range (for boats / snipers) ... might not be able to get target info (to know what part of the mech to hit first) ... etc, etc.

Oh Hey ... tactical decision making? what a concept.

[Fate 6]

MuKen, on 23 May 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Good game mechanics are ones that enhance the benefit you get from outplaying your opponents, not mechanics that lessen the advantage they get from outplaying you. We should not have a sensor that allows you to find an opponent who has successfully outmaneuvered and snuck behind you. Getting behind your opponent means somehow or another, you have outplayed them, the less benefit you get from doing so, the less this is a skill-based game.

This is far and away the best module, so everyone will carry it. So now it is generally simply not as good to get behind opponents in this game. That reduces the tactical level of the game as a whole.

Not only do I think this is entirely true, but it goes a step further. You don't even know if the enemy has seismic sensor, so you don't even know if they heard you coming. It not only lessens my outplay but has the potential to turn it on its head. They can now bait me into a trap without me knowing.

[MuKen]

NinetyProof, on 23 May 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Yes ... it is OP ... and the point is? And by the time MWO goes public there might be 3 OP modules and you only have 2 slots ... what then?

That is the point. Also, you don't need a *team* of 8 to carry 8 of them ... Neither do you need a team of 8 players to carry 8 BAP. Once you move out of "single person" meta and into team meta, now you have choices and decisions to make.

On that topic, if *everybody* has that, they might not be able to target decay or sensor range (for boats / snipers) ... might not be able to get target info (to know what part of the mech to hit first) ... etc, etc.

Oh Hey ... tactical decision making? what a concept.

You're sidestepping the main point of what I said. I suspect you're just typing a generic response you have to everyone who doesn't like this module, without fully reading the arguments put forth.

What I said is not primarily about HOW powerful it is. It is about WHAT it does. The very concept aims to reduce the skill level of the game, hence the very first sentence of my OP. Well designed modules are ones that you can take to increase the benefit you get from outplaying your opponent. Not modules you can take to mitigate the damage of them outplaying you. This module does the latter: it makes it so when they get behind you, it's not as bad. That lowers the skill level of the game. How effective it is at what it does is irrelevant, because the base idea is flawed.

Edited by MuKen, 23 May 2013 - 01:42 PM.

[Soy]

NinetyProof, on 23 May 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Once you move out of "single person" meta and into team meta, now you have choices and decisions to make.

Actually when you step into team meta or competitive meta you have less decisions to make, they're kinda... already decided... cuz they're team decisions, not single person decisions... in other words, style is cramped.

[matux]

Bloody Moon, on 23 May 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Oh yeah open another topic about this when we even have a dedicated, pinned feedback topic.

http://mwomercs.com/...seismic-sensor/

Not that hard to find.

But if we dont create hundreds of threads about the same thing over and over again how will they know something is wrong...... :\

[WVAnonymous]

MuKen, on 23 May 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

You're sidestepping the main point of what I said. I suspect you're just typing a generic response you have to everyone who doesn't like this module, without fully reading the arguments put forth.

What I said is not primarily about HOW powerful it is. It is about WHAT it does. The very concept aims to reduce the skill level of the game, hence the very first sentence of my OP. Well designed modules are ones that you can take to increase the benefit you get from outplaying your opponent. Not modules you can take to mitigate the damage of them outplaying you. This module does the latter: it makes it so when they get behind you, it's not as bad. That lowers the skill level of the game. How effective it is at what it does is irrelevant, because the base idea is flawed.

All modules are intended to reduce skill level. That's what they're for.

[MuKen]

WVAnonymous, on 23 May 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

All modules are intended to reduce skill level. That's what they're for.

If a module requires you to do something skillful to get its benefit, then it is increasing the skill level of the game. For example, hypothetically, we could have something themed the opposite of this sensor, a module that allows you to disrupt your opponent's sensors when you shoot them in the back. This increases the benefit of out-maneuvering your opponent, so a more skilled player is better off than a less skilled player. That means it makes it more important to be skilled, and thus it increases the skill level of the game.

This is different from a module which passively reduces the benefit your opponent gets from out-maneuvering you, and serves to reduce the gap between a skilled player and a less skilled player. Thus it is less important to be skilled, and therefore the skill level of the game is reduced.

Edited by MuKen, 23 May 2013 - 01:51 PM.

[WVAnonymous]

MuKen, on 23 May 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

If a module requires you to do something skillful to get its benefit, then it is increasing the skill level of the game. For example, hypothetically, we could have something themed the opposite of this sensor, a module that allows you to disrupt your opponent's sensors when you shoot them in the back. This increases the benefit of out-maneuvering your opponent, so a more skilled player is better off than a less skilled player, and thus it increases the skill level of the game.

This is different from a module which passively reduces the benefit your opponent gets from out-maneuvering you, and serves to equalize a skilled player and a less skilled player.

Sure, but all those modules are still hypothetical. The actual modules deployed such as target decay, target info, sensor range, coolant et al are to make it easier to hit targets, find weak points, find enemies, and so on, reducing required skills to get the same level of performance as a more skilled player who may not have or need the module.

[HarmAssassin]

I am very good at flanking the enemy, usually unseen. I prefer to attack from behind... but now, you don't even need to see me, all you need to do is equip a seismic module and be within 400 m of whatever path I take, and you'll detect me.

The game should reward good tactics, not penalize you for using them.

Think of it this way... you no longer even need to watch the tunnels now, just position a mech outside the tunnel (on a hill above it, on the ridge near it, etc.) and you'll automatically detect anyone in it trying to flank.

On the frozen maps (day or night), you just have to put one mech on the ridge, and it will detect every mech trying to use the tunnel. On forest colony, you just need a mech up on the hill over the tunnel (or the path that parallels it) and you automatically detect anyone in the tunnel.

It is as if they are trying to make this game optimized for 6 year olds to play.

Edited by HarmAssassin, 23 May 2013 - 01:55 PM.

[MuKen]

WVAnonymous, on 23 May 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

Sure, but all those modules are still hypothetical. The actual modules deployed such as target decay, target info, sensor range, coolant et al are to make it easier to hit targets, find weak points, find enemies, and so on, reducing required skills to get the same level of performance as a more skilled player who may not have or need the module.

Yeah, there is more than one module that violates this principle. I would argue against those as well, but so far they have impact that is pretty low, so it simply hasn't been important to do so. The presence of this module can be felt clearly in game, in a way that negatively impacts the quality of gamepley, and so it needs to be addressed.

The point remains, that modules SHOULD not work this way.

Edited by MuKen, 23 May 2013 - 01:57 PM.

[Soy]

I think it's funny how ppl think seismic module dumbs the game down, if anything it means you can't just be ******* stupid when you manuever.

[Thundercles]

Regardless of how it affects gameplay long-term, you'll be glad you have it when the graboids swing by.

[MuKen]

Soy, on 23 May 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

I think it's funny how ppl think seismic module dumbs the game down, if anything it means you can't just be ******* stupid when you manuever.

Please do describe the advanced and intelligent tactics involved with circumventing the seismic module.

[Profiteer]

Finally we have a module that's really good instead of mediocre to poo-on-a-stick, and what do people do..? complain.

Come on.

It's hardly an 'I win' button.

Just play the game or P** OFF.

[Soy]

MuKen, on 23 May 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

Please do describe the advanced and intelligent tactics involved with circumventing the seismic module.

Sorry they're next level type ****, can't really explain it unless you have a level 5 clearance pass.

[MuKen]

Profiteer, on 23 May 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

Please don't give feedback about stuff you don't like.

So we're pretty much abandoning all pretense at saying we are beta testers now?

Edited by MuKen, 23 May 2013 - 02:11 PM.

[Soy]

MuKen, on 23 May 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

[/size]

So we're pretty much abandoning all pretense at saying we are beta testers now?

Yeah cuz what we say and do really has an impact on the game *points at this patch*

[MuKen]

Soy, on 23 May 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

Yeah cuz what we say and do really has an impact on the game *points at this patch*

Community: ECM needs a counter.

PGI: Nah, ECM is about where we want it.

100s of threads about ECM later, ECM now has a counter.

Seems like we have an impact to me.