87 replies to this topic

[Steel your Life]

I have seen over many months posts about how the Atlas might be underpowered. Specifically the fact that it does seem to go down pretty quick. I always kinda agreed and disagreed with those posts i guess because it depends on the situation you find yourself in as an Atlas pilot. In any case its always the same responses with all responses to posts about Atlas being too weak.

People say well you need to torso twist, or most people on the enemy team will focus an atlas the second it shows up so thats why it seems weak but isnt, or people will say have you ever tried to 1on1 an atlas? they are not weak at all...

In any case the general consensus seems to be the Atlas is very powerful if anything and maybe even OP. I my self being an Atlas pilot for many months now feel that im not a noob at using them, i have leveled them all to max level opening all the modules and such. I also do alright in many matches. But after some many months of playing the Atlas and reading these posts i finally arrived at my opinion on the matter.

I believe Atlas mechs are too weak for their intended purpose. I mean as far as understand it the Atlas mech is supposed to serve as basically a tank class, well more on point an assault class meaning it should be able to walk out from behind that rock or hill pushing forward drawing the fire of the cowardly enemy "playing peek a boo blaster" from behind rocks and hills. During this time your team is able to move out and gain position or press the attack.

Unfortunately the Atlas seems to be taken down in mere seconds in most cases when acting like a true Assault mech. Whats more i find other mechs such as the stalker and some heavy class mechs actually seem more tanky due to the nature of their hit boxes.

After playing the Atlas i keep finding myself equipping long range weapons that allow me to stay hidden and or in the rear of the fight blasting away. This tactic seems to be the one that pays off the most when team fighting. From what i see it is actually the scout mechs that do the role of assault, as they can keep entire teams busy shooting at them without taking much damage. It is scout mechs that can run out literally among the enemy weaving in and around them distracting them while the team moves forwards picks targets and begins dealing damage. Whats more most scouts (good pilots) can regularly pull in better damage numbers than an Atlas (also a good pilot).

Yes the Atlas has the most armor but its also insanely easy to hit. Each of the 3 chest hit boxes of an Atlas are the size of an entire spider mech and moving at a snails pace it is all to easy for any enemy to focus fire on any one particular area and destroy it in several seconds. Such examples are an Atlas walking into a jaggermech with dual AC 20's the Jagger can easily plant its 40 damage hits all in the same spot quickly destroying an atlas. This is just example it doesn't have to be the Jagger or AC 20 just about any weapon will do simply because the Atlas is so easy to focus fire on and hit.

Im sure if you ran some statistics such as damage fired out and damage received you would begin to see how the Atlas isn't really that great to be using. Ill refer back to my scout example how an entire team or half a team in some cases can direct fire at a scout for whole minutes before taking it out while an exposed Atlas is taken down in under 10 seconds. While I at least understand this concept that a scout should be hard to hit, I fail to understand why a scout should have such survivability and large end game damage statistics to go with it. But other mechs such as the heavy class or mediums can bring an Atlas down 1on1 simply because the damage from the Atlas is so easily spread out of multiple hit boxes while the Damage to the Atlas is so easily sent to one area, even despite torso twisting. (im mean lets face it you see an atlas torso twist no one forces you to pull the trigger on his arm... waiting a few seconds for him to turn back doesn't take much skill....)

sorry for the ramble im just gunna wrap it up i guess you pretty much get the jist of what im saying by this point, that is if you are still reading this. Conclusion: The large hit boxes and slow movement counter the Atlas's high armor point. Basically (for example) where as a scout mech may calculate to be 10x harder to hit than an Atlas, the Atlas has maybe 3x the armor of a scout. Here in lies the problem the armor does not scale up high enough with the difficulty of the enemy to deal damage to it.

Anyway just wondering if there is anyone else out there that has extensive experience with the Atlas kinda seeing the same thing i am?

[Nauht]

As someone who does not own one single assault but everything else, I can say that the Atlas is a pita to take down in any if the mechs I own. They dont hit as hard as a Stalker but they keep on trucking longer.

I take down Stalkers first just cos they can lay the hurt down more and leave the Atlas last cos they can last longer.
If they made the Atlas have the same weapons capability of the Stalker, then that's a mech to be truly feared and maybe even a little OP.

The Atlas, IMO, does last longer on average than any other mech.

[DeadlyNerd]

Am I reading this right? "Atlas underpowered"

A whole 100 tons of a mech that has a better profile than Awesome is underpowered, >>>UNERPOWERED<<<

The sheer appearance of this word in association with an assault class mech, a max tonner at that, is astounding enough.

Anyway, didn't read past the first few lines as the whole topic is pointless because the Atlas is the most versatile mech, period.
If you tried to troll, you're trying too hard.

[Monky]

Atlas are best when they suprise the enemy. Use your mid-rate assaults like stalkers and highlanders to draw fire, while you move into position. Hit them with a fresh Atlas at close range where they can't escape, and ideally are already wounded.

The other good option is being an anchor for your team. Position yourself squarely in the middle of the group and deal damage to anyone who strays too close.

As an Atlas, your goal shouldn't be 'hey i'm a big fat threat come pummel me' it should be 'i'm the heaviest weapons payload in the game, and there's nothing you can do about it because you can't single me out'.

[Steel your Life]

DeadlyNerd, on 06 June 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

Am I reading this right? "Atlas underpowered"

A whole 100 tons of a mech that has a better profile than Awesome is underpowered, >>>UNERPOWERED<<<

The sheer appearance of this word in association with an assault class mech, a max tonner at that, is astounding enough.

Anyway, didn't read past the first few lines as the whole topic is pointless because the Atlas is the most versatile mech, period.
If you tried to troll, you're trying too hard.

yes clearly someone who didnt read past the first few lines knows what the post is even about.

[Corvus Antaka]

pfft. The atlas is still the king of the battlefield. if your dying to fast, your not doing it right.

[Lord Perversor]

Monky, on 06 June 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

Atlas are best when they suprise the enemy. Use your mid-rate assaults like stalkers and highlanders to draw fire, while you move into position. Hit them with a fresh Atlas at close range where they can't escape, and ideally are already wounded.

The other good option is being an anchor for your team. Position yourself squarely in the middle of the group and deal damage to anyone who strays too close.

As an Atlas, your goal shouldn't be 'hey i'm a big fat threat come pummel me' it should be 'i'm the heaviest weapons payload in the game, and there's nothing you can do about it because you can't single me out'.

I fight lime this on my Atlas and Highlander, just trying to aproach the enemy behind cover until i can bring my whole mid-short weaponry to combat and my team overrun the opponent, but still you depend on a team willingly to follow in an all or nothing charge( wich is hard to do in pugs)

If the Op expect to charge across 1000 meters of open terrain and survive he's wrong

[Steel your Life]

Monky, on 06 June 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

Atlas are best when they suprise the enemy. Use your mid-rate assaults like stalkers and highlanders to draw fire, while you move into position. Hit them with a fresh Atlas at close range where they can't escape, and ideally are already wounded.

The other good option is being an anchor for your team. Position yourself squarely in the middle of the group and deal damage to anyone who strays too close.

As an Atlas, your goal shouldn't be 'hey i'm a big fat threat come pummel me' it should be 'i'm the heaviest weapons payload in the game, and there's nothing you can do about it because you can't single me out'.

well thas my point isnt it? that heavy mechs are better at tanking than an Atlas becasue of their hit boxes and this is not how the game is supposed to be. 2nd the Atlas is not the heaviest weapon payload in the game there are many lighter mechs that dish out more damage such as the stalker for one jagger for 2. Even scouts can dish out more damage becasue of their surviabilty.

simply stating things like the atlas is heavily armored and can hold many weapons does not address the in game reality that is the subject of my post. Its the term "it looks good on paper" meaning there is a difference between numbers on a page and how things play out in a match. Anyone who plays this game should know that as a mech with high damage output means very little if it overheats or cant hit its target. This is the essence of hte post the way the game plays pvp negates many of the Atlas proposed role. Simply quoting tonage and loadout is basically meaningless when responding to this post as far as i can see its a mute point and not the question im asking people to ask themselves

[Unbound Inferno]

Well, you bring a good point - but you must realize the dynamics of MWO places the Atlas in a very different position than what you probably see here.

The Atlas is a behemoth that in MWO is a versatile platform that is supposed to take significant punishment before being brought down - and it does that.

Its a giant that most non-assault or specialized damage-dealing Heavies can't solo well. Some elite lights might work, but you can't take it out easily if you run into certain Atlas builds up-close, and others you can't snipe at range well. Its the nature of the mech, and it performs admirably depending on how you make and play it.

But its a target, like it should be. Concentrated fire on it - like any other mech - is easy to tear it apart. Because of it, and most's reaction it just becomes the priority target and you see the faster death when you invite such punishment by being that target. It can't be helped because that's what it is.

However its not supposed to be the typical "Tank" role you are probably seeing it as.

Trust me. I played games like City of Heroes for years - Online Massive Multiplayer Role Playing Game. Typical Team-Based class system simplified to basically damage dealers, support and a tank or two. The tank soaks up immeasurable damage so the rest can dish it - I've had some of my own you wouldn't believe. That tank style I think is what you wish for here - you won't get it.

The ONLY way I see an Atlas could do that here is if you double or more the armor it has now - and that makes it more broken than you'd probably imagine. Its not worth arguing over, and it shouldn't be changed.

The Atlas as it is currently functions in its intended role well enough. I think the only argument for it that holds any grounds so far might be the ECM restriction now, and even that is trivial in the greater scheme of things.

[Asmudius Heng]

Any mech leading the charge goes down quickly. You need support when assaulting it is not a one mech job.

The hit boxes for the Atlas are fairly good though unlike the Awesome for instance and it has a lot of armour but yes, people can concentrate on that CT pretty easily so you get focus fired hard if you let the enemy do so. So you tend to skulk around not lead from the front - but no mech can do that.

Because we are all good at aiming no mech functions like in TT where it slowly gets torn apart, though good torso twisting and use of cover extends your life.

I do wish that FF armour would allow you to increase your armour not just give you extra weight that might make something a little more tanky.

[Brilig]

Atlases are very tough, but they do still have to be careful. Mechs in this game put out a lot of ridiculously accurate alpha strike damage, so just a few guys shooting at you can eat through armor very fast.

Edit: Especially when you are a big slow target. Awesome's really suffer from this.

Edited by Brilig, 06 June 2013 - 10:14 PM.

[Steel your Life]

Unbound Inferno, on 06 June 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

But its a target, like it should be. Concentrated fire on it - like any other mech - is easy to tear it apart. Because of it, and most's reaction it just becomes the priority target and you see the faster death when you invite such punishment by being that target. It can't be helped because that's what it is.

but i addressed this with examples of scout mechs distracting entire teams for multiple minutes of continious fire........

[Fate 6]

I have never not been at least a little worried when going up against an Atlas, even when I was in an Atlas of my own (the 1 exception being when SRMs were broken and I killed an Atlas in 4 alphas in my Cent). They have balanced hitboxes, and a buttload of armor. The reason they go down "fast" is because there are so many assaults on each team. Even Atlases can only take so much, and when they're up against 3 Atlases they go down as fast as anything else.

Edited by Fate 6, 06 June 2013 - 10:30 PM.

[Brilig]

Steel your Life, on 06 June 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

but i addressed this with examples of scout mechs distracting entire teams for multiple minutes of continious fire........

Light mechs can be a lot harder to hit. When you do hit them though, it hurts a lot. A good Spider pilot can dance through enemy fire. A bad one will get cored in a single alpha.

[Steel your Life]

Fate 6, on 06 June 2013 - 10:29 PM, said:

I have never not been at least a little worried when going up against an Atlas, even when I was in an Atlas of my own (the 1 exception being when SRMs were broken and I killed an Atlas in 4 alphas in my Cent). They have balanced hitboxes, and a buttload of armor. The reason they go down "fast" is because there are so many assaults on each team. Even Atlases can only take so much, and when they're up against 3 Atlases they go down as fast as anything else.

but agian this statement renderd untrue from my personal experience of seeing scouts last longer much longer than any other mech in the game vs multiple enemies and 2nd point which i already put in OP that scouts can also deal high end match damage and by can i dont mean fluke i mean consistantlly commonly so by this hard fact example it completely destroyes your point and the point most others are making

in addition to this point id like to point out another one Stalkers take more damage on average and or last longer than atlas and also can equip greater firepower. This 2nd point i thing is very true and if so also completely destroys this argment and all arguments like it

Edited by Steel your Life, 06 June 2013 - 10:58 PM.

[Adsbom]

While I can see what you are saying OP I must agree with the other posters, it is the same for an atlas as any other mech you never want to be caught in the open by yourself, you will get focused and you will die, quickly. A scout mech will last longer only by virtue of it being harder to hit, and this comes down to pilot skill.

I concur that the Stalker in particular seems difficult to focus particular torsos on, but these mechs have other weaknesses, lower armor and high alpha builds that will not compete with a high dps build close up. Which brings me to your point that the Atlas is not the "heaviest weapon payload in the game", I agree with this and also think this should be the case. The point of an Atlas is to have a high dps, which in turn means you must survive for long enough to put that dps to use.

From what I understand this is your main issue, that an Atlas cannot survive long enough to make that high dps work. Unfortunately I feel that the survivability of an Atlas very much depends on the pilot, as such I don't think you will ever get a clear resolution to your issue. The Atlas being one of the slowest mechs around means that position is of paramount importance, since once you get somewhere you won't be able to retreat in a hurry, and this choice of position again comes down to a pilot and their experience.

Finally, although I do not want to reduce this to an argument about all of our various personal experiences I feel I have a particular piece of anecdotal evidence that may illustrate the argument about position well.

I was playing a premade 8v8 match, in my DDC (the usual twin uac5 high dps build), I was the last assault for my team on tourmaline, remainder of my team was capping, at this point I had orange and red front armor and pretty fresh rear. Now I knew I was about to be charged by the opposing team's 3 remaining assault mechs (1 fastlas and 2 stalkers, all relatively fresh), with no cover around, this obviously was a bad position to be in. Nevertheless there was no time to relocate, so when the atlas appeared I focused its right torso, as you do, it proceeded to charge me dead on, by this stage the stalkers had appeared and my front armor was running low, so as the atlas looped around me I put my back to the stalkers and kept fire on the atlas. As the atlas finished its loop I moved to keep it between me and the stalkers, by the time the stalkers had closed in both my atlas and the enemy were critical, I had lost my uac5s but still had srms, knowing that I had one shot left I fired my srms coring the atlas before being destroyed by the stalkers.

Sorry if the above has bored you but it demonstrates my point about position, by utilising the areas where armor was strongest at the appropriate times it was possible to survive longer, further by moving to obstruct the stalkers line of sight with the enemy atlas meant that damage was avoided. The error of the enemy atlas was its position, by never rotating armor and obstructing the stalker's line of fire it was destroyed in a situation where it never should have been.

Now to try and link this back to your tanking problem, it could be said that both myself and the enemy atlas were fulfilling this role, however, the differences in our positioning were what determined our survivability. Thus, my conclusion (which hopefully helps you out) is that you can tank in an atlas just your movements have to be calculated accordingly.

[Adsbom]

Steel your Life, on 06 June 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

but agian this statement renderd untrue from my personal experience of seeing scouts last longer much longer than any other mech in the game vs multiple enemies and 2nd point which i already put in OP that scouts can also deal high end match damage and by can i dont mean fluke i mean consistantlly commonly so by this hard fact example it completely destroyes your point and the point most others are making

I agree that scouts do last longer but as many people have said it is because they are highly manoeuvrable and can almost literally dodge bullets. Though I can't say that I agree with them scoring high end match damage, though that depends on your definition of high damage.

[Nauht]

Give it up guys.

He's using an argument with lights as his basis. That should tell you all you need to know about his ability to listen to reason and to see the other side.

Nothing you say will convince him otherwise.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

The bigger they are the harder they fall.

[Steel your Life]

Adsbom i agree with what ur saying about the atlas and about how it should be played

my argument is that i dont think the Atlas really does what its supposed to mainly becasue other mechs like the Stalker seem to outclass it in damage and survivabilty and scouts seem to outclass it in tanking and distraction and also because of their longevity they get high damage marks by end game.

what you said in your post brings me to the section of my OP where i say that outfitting the Atlas with longer range weapons like your ac5's and hiding behidn rocks and staying behind the frontlines or in the back among your team (what you called "positioning") seems to be the only way to play the Atlas effectively and this is where i have my problem i simply think that the Atlas should have maybe less firepower and more survivabilty or have more sections of armor than standard mechs so that fire on them is divided up more evenly to take advantage of their armor. For example for atlas you should be able to remove armor from legs and add it to torso why? because 60% of the armor that Atlas gets is useless such as 80 some odd points of armor per leg... 64 armor or whatever it is for arms a huge portion of the armor on the atlas does nothing to promote surviveability which i think goes against their purpose.

My issue is not how do you use an Atlas its why should you? when other mechs do the job of the Atlas better than the Atlas does.

Nauht, on 06 June 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

Give it up guys.

He's using an argument with lights as his basis. That should tell you all you need to know about his ability to listen to reason and to see the other side.

Nothing you say will convince him otherwise.

whats wrong with using a scout as an example? if the example is true which it is how can you deny the logic behind it? and scout is not the only example i used ur cherry picking my post did you just completely skip over the part where i talked abou the Stalker? Sounds like your just trolling to me