18 replies to this topic

[Suprentus]

To start off with a disclaimer, I don't think there's much issue with weapon balance. Some things need to be tweaked here and there, as always, but nothing drastic is needed, IMO. So this thread is not your typical whiny forumwarrior thread about buttf*cking weapons just because I'm not good enough to utilize the wide array of weapons available.

Instead, this is just meant to address the large number of people playing assault mechs, the decent amount playing heavies, and the few who play mediums and lights. I won't lie, I love playing mechs from the assault class. My favorite mech is the Highlander. So I won't stand on a pedestal and wag a finger at the community for their preference in mechs.

As I understand it, PGI already has a plan to induce tonnage limits and incentives to play mediums. I'm not sure how I feel about that, as it's not like they'd actually be making mediums more viable that way. So I figure I'd throw some ideas out there, and hopefully something might stick. I don't claim that these ideas are Christ returned, either. I can understand how some ideas might just throw balance completely out of whack, and make things way more convoluted than they need to be. So these are just suggestions. Maybe PGI could do something great with them, maybe not.

As another disclaimer, I am generally against nerfing things unless it really gives an egregious and cheap advantage to someone. I like building things up, not dragging things down.


1. Make mediums and lights faster. No, I don't mean increase the engine limit. I mean give the existing engines more umph when they're in mediums or lights. It's not like changing TT speeds is without precedence. Assault mechs already go slower than their TT speeds with the same engines. Heavies, mediums, and lights all go their TT speeds.

Why not have mediums and lights go a bit faster than their TT speeds, and keep heavies where they are? Maybe even make them turn faster too, idk. After all, the reason someone would usually choose a smaller mech is for speed and agility, right?

Somehow, mediums and lights seem slower and sluggish to me. I can snipe a Spider that's running at full speed. That can't be right. Maybe they just seem slower with the host rewind mechanics making us actually hit what see that we hit, so it could be a mind illusion. I know a while back, all mechs are slapped with a speed cap that can't exceed about 150kph, but could the netcode be stable enough now to increase that?

2. Make their armor more effective. I think lights are at a good spot regarding armor. Really, I just think they should be harder to hit instead of being able to take a beating, so for lights, I defer this to point 1. However, mediums can't take a lot of punishment. Maybe if their armor was about 25% (at most) more effective or so, they'd have more of a presence on the battlefield.

I don't mean make mediums able to carry more armor points, as that may just make things too convoluted regarding points per ton amongst the chassis. I mean like make 1 point of armor on a medium worth about 1.25 or less in actual practice.

3. Allow endo-steel to save a bit more weight on mediums. Again, this is another thing I think are about right on lights, with the exception of when they round the tonnage savings down instead of up. However, it's hard to fit everything you want to fit on a medium, as you always need to sacrifice more than you would on a heavy or assault. Even endo-steel doesn't save enough weight that I need. What if it could just save a bit more?

4. Increase amount of ammo per ton. Ammo can get pretty heavy when you want your ballistic weapon to be able to last an entire match. For an AC/20, I need no less than 4 tons just to make it viable enough. Then again, maybe that's the point regarding the AC/20, as it's supposed to be a ***** to lug into combat with. However, the lighter ballistic weapons still need a good amount of ammo tonnage to keep them viable.


If I think of any more, I'll add them.

Overall, I think part of the reason people don't choose more mediums is because of diminishing returns involving skill. Assaults merely being slow and cumbersome made them require skill and a level head to pilot right, whereas a medium has much more ease of use in piloting. Once your player base becomes more experienced though, then you have skilled assault pilots facing mediums, both skilled and unskilled.

A pilot with a lot of skill can get more out of an assault than he can a medium. So if a skilled assault and a skilled medium clash, chances are the skilled assault will come out on top. Assaults are fine, but just bring mediums to the point where a skilled medium is capable of foiling a skilled assault. Hopefully, any number of my ideas might help with that endeavor.

Edited by Suprentus, 16 June 2013 - 12:17 PM.

[Stoicblitzer]

Suprentus, on 16 June 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

To start off with a disclaimer, I don't think there's much issue with weapon balance. Some things need to be tweaked here and there, as always, but nothing drastic is needed, IMO.

[Suprentus]

Stoicblitzer, on 16 June 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Good work, Billy! That is what I said. Do you have anything else to add to the class?

[Stoicblitzer]

Suprentus, on 16 June 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

Good work, Billy! That is what I said. Do you have anything else to add to the class?

no

[Suprentus]

Stoicblitzer, on 16 June 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

no

Ok, run along in shame, then.

[Suprentus]

Guess there's no interest in any of these ideas.

[Purlana]

Speed is caped for a reason, I don't think you remember the lights warping all over the map.

[Svalfangr]

I'm all for idea 1.

Unsure about the others.

[Darius Deadeye]

Suprentus, on 16 June 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

1. Make mediums and lights faster. No, I don't mean increase the engine limit. I mean give the existing engines more umph when they're in mediums or lights. It's not like changing TT speeds is without precedence. Assault mechs already go slower than their TT speeds with the same engines. Heavies, mediums, and lights all go their TT speeds.

Why not have mediums and lights go a bit faster than their TT speeds, and keep heavies where they are? Maybe even make them turn faster too, idk. After all, the reason someone would usually choose a smaller mech is for speed and agility, right?

Somehow, mediums and lights seem slower and sluggish to me. I can snipe a Spider that's running at full speed. That can't be right. Maybe they just seem slower with the host rewind mechanics making us actually hit what see that we hit, so it could be a mind illusion. I know a while back, all mechs are slapped with a speed cap that can't exceed about 150kph, but could the netcode be stable enough now to increase that?

2. Make their armor more effective. I think lights are at a good spot regarding armor. Really, I just think they should be harder to hit instead of being able to take a beating, so for lights, I defer this to point 1. However, mediums can't take a lot of punishment. Maybe if their armor was about 25% (at most) more effective or so, they'd have more of a presence on the battlefield.

3. Allow endo-steel to save a bit more weight on mediums. Again, this is another thing I think are about right on lights, with the exception of when they round the tonnage savings down instead of up. However, it's hard to fit everything you want to fit on a medium, as you always need to sacrifice more than you would on a heavy or assault. Even endo-steel doesn't save enough weight that I need. What if it could just save a bit more?

4. Increase amount of ammo per ton. Ammo can get pretty heavy when you want your ballistic weapon to be able to last an entire match. For an AC/20, I need no less than 4 tons just to make it viable enough. Then again, maybe that's the point regarding the AC/20, as it's supposed to be a ***** to lug into combat with. However, the lighter ballistic weapons still need a good amount of ammo tonnage to keep them viable.

1) I agree on this point, but the current game engine limits speed. Lights can't go faster than 152,7kph due to game engine limits. However, I still believe the absolute topspeed for lights should never go above 180kph or so. And high speeds should result in some serious collision dmg. 180kph straight to a wall = slightly bent torso, right?

2) Not just for lights/mediums, but an all round 10% increase in armor would be good. Primarily center torso. Armor of lights and mediums would essentially be fine, if they had more speed or weapons had slightly less concentrated oomph. It's a mixture of many things that make lights, primarily mediums, seem weak at times.

3) Disagree.

4) For AC's, yes, for missiles no. With 12v12 coming up, there is likely going to be some screaming about this point.

Agree that mediums should be more viable, but generally disagree on implementation of that viability. Some sort of tonnage system would make better sense, as overall price to weight ratio mediums are fine, it's just that when there are 5+ heavy/assaults on field, mediums can't really shine.

[East Indy]

Mediums don't have a practical niche. They're too heavy for high speed yet too light for powerful weapons. The tabletop justified their use via fictional economics: they're the heaviest 'Mechs for the Successor States' best production value.

With fewer heavies and assaults, mediums fill several spots in the food chain -- so neither they nor lights need any gifts.

How to go about it? Cost probably won't deter players from adapting, especially if they manage and circulate strategies for it, and PGI doesn't need to also fight a financial meta-game. Slowing heavies and further slowing assaults would emphasize mobility for mediums and lights, but wouldn't literally prevent big 'Mechs from crowding the battlefield.

The best option, I think, is to limit matches to certain weights and class combinations, then allow players to ready multiple 'Mechs in a order of preference and choose to wait longer if they really want to stomp around in an Atlas. MMO queues give preference to high demand roles, and the system works just fine.

[Lostdragon]

You lost me after the first sentence, OP.

[Suprentus]

Purlana, on 18 June 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

Speed is caped for a reason, I don't think you remember the lights warping all over the map.

I do remember, and I also remember the netcode getting a lot better since then.

East Indy, on 18 June 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

The best option, I think, is to limit matches to certain weights and class combinations, then allow players to ready multiple 'Mechs in a order of preference and choose to wait longer if they really want to stomp around in an Atlas. MMO queues give preference to high demand roles, and the system works just fine.

That system makes sense, but I'm not sure I'd be able to get behind a system that says it won't let you play the Mech you want unless you go through some arduous queue time. I can already picture people up in arms because of debilitating waiting periods just to play their favorite Mechs. That's why I think making mediums a viable alternative to assaults is a better solution.

[Suprentus]

Darius Deadeye, on 18 June 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

1) I agree on this point, but the current game engine limits speed. Lights can't go faster than 152,7kph due to game engine limits. However, I still believe the absolute topspeed for lights should never go above 180kph or so. And high speeds should result in some serious collision dmg. 180kph straight to a wall = slightly bent torso, right?

That's a more than agreeable speed to me, and I agree with collision damage as well.

Darius Deadeye, on 18 June 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

2) Not just for lights/mediums, but an all round 10% increase in armor would be good. Primarily center torso. Armor of lights and mediums would essentially be fine, if they had more speed or weapons had slightly less concentrated oomph. It's a mixture of many things that make lights, primarily mediums, seem weak at times.

Yeah, that might work too.

Darius Deadeye, on 18 June 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

Agree that mediums should be more viable, but generally disagree on implementation of that viability. Some sort of tonnage system would make better sense, as overall price to weight ratio mediums are fine, it's just that when there are 5+ heavy/assaults on field, mediums can't really shine.

The problem I have with a tonnage system is that everyone will want to play assaults, and there just wouldn't be enough mediums to go around, resulting in long wait times. PGI's plan of offering incentives towards playing mediums seems unwise too, as it's just saying "handicap yourself to make the game funner for everyone else, and you'll get a cookie."

Edited by Suprentus, 18 June 2013 - 09:35 AM.

[Ningyo]

If you want to give them a little more tonnage to work with I would suggest making Ferro Fibrous armor better, right now it is garbage, making it do twice the weight reduction would give a very small buff to lights and mediums and have almost no downside.


I disagree with almost everything the OP said though, as I think adding all these special weight buffs and debuffs will add layers of complexity that will be confusing and unneeded.


(What would help most is anything to go away from pinpoint accuracy as this is what hurts small mechs most)

[General Taskeen]

1. Abstain. Right now, the speed cap is artificially handicapping some Mechs. Jenners stock are 113 (where as they should go 118). An Assault goes 48, when it should be 54. When the speed cap is lifted, some Mechs will probably be faster than they used to be.

2. Other Idea here. Currently FF is useless as a weight-save. The idea discussed for months on the forums was to keep IS Ferro-Fibrous will the small armor weight save and in additional give it the same percentage per ton for an extra damage "reduction."

3. Abstain/Not Sure. On purely weight-save discussion, Endo is definitely better than FF. FF needs buff/addition/bonus.

4. Yes. Ammo should be increased by 2x.

[ObsidianSpectre]

Suprentus, on 18 June 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

PGI's plan of offering incentives towards playing mediums seems unwise too, as it's just saying "handicap yourself to make the game funner for everyone else, and you'll get a cookie."

What plan? Do you have a link?

[Suprentus]

ObsidianSpectre, on 18 June 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

What plan? Do you have a link?

Bryan Ekman, on 14 June 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

StalaggtIKE: Light and Medium mechs were the most prevalent within Battletech lore, with Heavy and Assault being a rarity. This is not the case within our current meta game, which consists of opposing teams of mostly Heavy and Assault class. Basically the plan is to bring your largest, heaviest hitting mech. Is this intended,and if not, are there any plans to curb this trend?
A: We have some plans in the works to limit the amount of tonnage on the battlefield and encourage balance through rewarding will structured teams.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Make Heavies and Assaults slower.

No point running a Med when you can run a Heavy that runs the same speed (theres a few faster Med variants, whoopty doo), has more weapons, armor.

[Latriam]

I am only for them increasing the speed when the put the knockdown back in./
If you can warp by at 165 (which is crap) then why can't my 100 ton atlas knock you down when you run into my legs.

all I am saying is if you want to go faster in lights then I should be able to knock you down when i am bigger.