74 replies to this topic

[OneEyed Jack]

Windsaw, on 19 June 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Umm...

Why?

So that they can be adjusted for and you have at least some idea where your shots are going to go. Otherwise skill goes out the window and it turns into something like when I play fighting games with all those combos. I just slap buttons really fasts and hope for the best. Don't laugh, I do really well sometimes! Of course, it's only because my opponent has no idea what I'm going to do, making it difficult for him to react. I know he has no idea, because I have no idea.

[DocBach]

Vespere Dax, on 19 June 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

And right now the META isn't? Do you realize that matchmaking times are getting longer and longer. People don't want to play MWO of Duty. The problem is not even convergence Mack it's boating.

Here's the scenero. Forest Colony. I have 6 ERPPCs on my stalker. I creep over the hill on the west overlooking the village. At 3x zoom I see a spider capping theta. I switch my mouse to snipe more and line him up. Boom, his leg is gone. I've overheated but I don't care cause he's dead ( or soon will be).

How much skill did i just display?

And if convergence wasn't instant and to a pin point, your PPC's wouldn't have all hit his leg, some might have missed entirely.

[OneEyed Jack]

Vespere Dax, on 19 June 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

And right now the META isn't? Do you realize that matchmaking times are getting longer and longer. People don't want to play MWO of Duty. The problem is not even convergence Mack it's boating.

Here's the scenero. Forest Colony. I have 6 ERPPCs on my stalker. I creep over the hill on the west overlooking the village. At 3x zoom I see a spider capping theta. I switch my mouse to snipe more and line him up. Boom, his leg is gone. I've overheated but I don't care cause he's dead ( or soon will be).

How much skill did i just display?

And that's what makes convergence the issue.

If your weapons can't quite converge to that small point, you couldn't make that shot.

OR

If your weapons took time to converge to a single point, you'd be standing there making yourself a target while you took the time to make the shot, or give your target time to move.

If you can't make the shot, or it becomes very risky to make the shot, then the alpha power becomes far, far less important.

Edited by OneEyed Jack, 19 June 2013 - 08:25 AM.

[Hotthedd]

DocBach, on 19 June 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

And if convergence wasn't instant and to a pin point, your PPC's wouldn't have all hit his leg, some might have missed entirely.

That would seem to be more realistic (sim-like), and a GOOD thing, IMO.

[Windsaw]

OneEyed Jack, on 19 June 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

So that they can be adjusted for and you have at least some idea where your shots are going to go.

I would imagine it would be like this: If I switch target at different distance, I have to decide:
- Fire at once and risk missing with some weapons or all because convergence is not yet adusted
- Or wait a second to ensure a hit while risking getting hit myself.
Determining how log I have to or should wait until firing would be up to the skill of the player.
- Or if you risk missing because of short reaction time you would have to adjust your angle that your most powerful weapon will get the most chance of hitting.

Meaning: those who fire blindly (like now) would get a hard time while pilots with skill and patience would get along fine with it.

A good thing all over.
I see nothing negative in it.

Edited by Windsaw, 19 June 2013 - 08:34 AM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Windsaw, on 19 June 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

I would imagine it would be like this: If I switch target at different distance, I have to decide:
- Fire at once and risk missing with some weapons or all because convergence is not yet adusted
- Or wait a second to ensure a hit while risking getting hit myself.
Determining how log I have to or should wait until firing would be up to the skill of the player.
- Or if you risk missing because of short reaction time you would have to adjust your angle that your most powerful weapon will get the most chance of hitting.

Meaning: those who fire blindly (like now) would get a hard time while pilots with skill and patience would get along fine with it.

A good thing all over.
I see nothing negative in it.

That's exactly what I've been endorsing, with the caveat that there be something to indicate the outer range of convergence. Similar effect to the variable CoF idea, but with some predictability, so there's still skill, rather than just spray-n-pray.

[Vespere Dax]

OneEyed Jack, on 19 June 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

And that's what makes convergence the issue.

If your weapons can't quite converge to that small point, you couldn't make that shot.

OR

If your weapons took time to converge to a single point, you'd be standing there making yourself a target while you took the time to make the shot, or give your target time to move.

If you can't make the shot, or it becomes very risky to make the shot, then the alpha power becomes far, far less important.

I agree that sniping is a accepted part of the game. But I just hit 6 ppcs from ranged from all parts of my stalker on his knee cap from 1200m out. This is how I play Ghost Recon not MWO.

I don't like random but I do like the spaced out recticle system. Even the difference of a few mm on the recticle will make a huge difference from range.

[MustrumRidcully]

Convergence is a problem, but only combined with group fire. If you boat, you get good synergy, if you don't, you get no synergy.

So, an alternative option. Ditch Group Fire.

At least for some weapons. I suggest every weapon that deals 10 or more damage per shot (in a single projectile) automatically puts every other weapon that deals 10 or more damage per shot on a 0.25 second cooldown.

That means AC/10, AC/20, PPC, ER PPC, Gauss Rifle.

[Vespere Dax]

MustrumRidcully, on 19 June 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

Convergence is a problem, but only combined with group fire. If you boat, you get good synergy, if you don't, you get no synergy.

So, an alternative option. Ditch Group Fire.

At least for some weapons. I suggest every weapon that deals 10 or more damage per shot (in a single projectile) automatically puts every other weapon that deals 10 or more damage per shot on a 0.25 second cooldown.

That means AC/10, AC/20, PPC, ER PPC, Gauss Rifle.

I don't have that many buttons on my mouse!

[OneEyed Jack]

Hmmmm...

A realistic delay for weapons to realign to a new focal point
OR
A senseless delay between shots of potentially unrelated weapons.... because

[MustrumRidcully]

Vespere Dax, on 19 June 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

I don't have that many buttons on my mouse!

You don't need to. You can click twice in 0.25 seconds.

Unless you can't. My idea might not be barrier-free. Back to the drawing board*...?

*) Drawing with red and green colors mostly.

Quote

A realistic delay for weapons to realign to a new focal point
OR
A senseless delay between shots of potentially unrelated weapons.... because

Because simpler. And recoil maybe, oh, and look over there, a Urbanmech Hero!
*runs*

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 19 June 2013 - 09:18 AM.

[General Taskeen]

I'm at impasse. Even MW:LL didn't use convergence things.

I'm still in favor of lowering the threshold and revamping heatsinks, and maybe some heat penalties, BEFORE something like convergence is tried. At that point the game might slow down just from that where people are more carefully watching heat and firing fewer weapons at once.

[Lootee]

OneEyed Jack, on 19 June 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Hmmmm...

A realistic delay for weapons to realign to a new focal point
OR
A senseless delay between shots of potentially unrelated weapons.... because

Not senseless. A heavy gauss rifle firing can knock the mech flat on its back. HGR only does 25pts of damage. It's established that PPCs, ACs, and GRs all have recoil and the threshold for possibly getting knocked on your arse is 25.

So either put in self knockdown if a player fires more than a heavy GR worth of dmg all at once. Or introduce a cooldown between big gun blasts, say it's the battle computer preventing a dumb MW from flooring himself with recoil.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 19 June 2013 - 09:36 AM.

[Mackman]

I can get behind almost any idea that doesn't involve RNG. I can get behind weapon delays (sensibly done), I can get behind an intelligently designed anti-huge alpha system, etc. And, truth be told, I probably won't rage-quit if they do introduce a limited RNG. I'm agreeing with you that big alphas make the game a lot less fun than it could be: I'm disagreeing that introducing RNG would help.

[ExtremeA79]

FupDup, on 19 June 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

The Hellstar would like to have a word with you. 4 Clan ER PPCs and 30 DHS. In TT, it can alpha strike repeatedly with zero fear of heat problems unless its heatsinks get damaged.

The reason you don't see stock mechs carrying loadouts like that very often is because the TT writers deliberately made most mechs suck. Notice how a lot of them don't use tech upgrades even when they could, or put their ammo in vulnerable places, or skimp on the armor, are too slow, have too few heat sinks, lack weapons to defend itself at long or short range, etc.? Stock mechs are built specifically to suck a lot of the time. In a PvP environment, the first thing players do is remove the TT weaknesses from mechs and apply every little optimization possible.

Why don't you look at when it was made? Almost 30 years after now. I am talking about mechs around our time. At max 3060.
Still, is that a 6 ppc mech? I don't think so.

[ExtremeA79]

OneEyed Jack, on 19 June 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

First, I didn't say anything about convergence, one way or the other. I'm not sure where the crap comes from where you're claiming I argued both sides. Just say "no" to drugs. You claimed they couldn't fire at all, which is just BS you made up. I called you out. Either put up or shut up.

If you can't point out where it says in TT that a mech can't fire 6 PPCs, then it's pure BS. I can point out that in TT I could build a Inner Sphere mech that could, in point of fact, fire 6 PPCs without even hitting automatic shutdown, let alone exploding, as you claim. Especially since there is no explosion in the BT rules at any heat, no matter how high, unless you have ammo that can cook off. The Masakari can no only fire all it's CERPPC's, but also it's missiles without hitting auto shutdown. It would have to roll for shutdown and ammo explosion, but it could do it.

If you wanna argue a point, bring some facts and not a pack of blatant lies.

Then make a 6 ppc mech with the mechs from 3050 and show me how hot it gets.
I also said from lore, novels as well. That is very well canon. A mech would not be able to withstand the heat.

[Strum Wealh]

TexAss, on 19 June 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

if you ask me there should be no convergence for torso weapons at all even if it means having multiple circles/crosshairs for aiming

Rather than have multiple crosshairs, all torso weapons could/would be locked in place (both horizontally and vertically) relative to the torso so that they converge on the reticle's center point at their max. effective/optimal range and dicerge when .

This is essentially how the wing-mounted guns on WWII military aircraft were set, in a process called "harmonization".

(In this example, the red lines show some of aircraft's guns are harmonized to a distance of ~200 meters, the green lines show some of aircraft's guns are harmonized to a distance of ~800 meters, and the blue lines show that the unharmonized guns fire straight ahead in parallel paths and do not converge at all.)

For example, twin torso-mounted PPCs (as found on the stock AWS-8Q, for instance) would converge to a single point at 540 meters, with the impact points diverging as one moves away from that point (either toward or away from the firing unit).

Likewise, twin torso-mounted Medium Lasers (such as seen on the stock AS7-D, CPLT-C1, CN9-A, and CTF-3D) would converge to a single point at 270 meters, with the impact points diverging as one moves away from that point (either toward or away from the firing unit).

In the case of non-twinned weapons (a Large Laser in one side-torso and an ER Large Laser in the other side-torso), each weapon would be set to converge at its respective effective/optimal range (540 meters for the LL and 675 meters for the ERLL).

By contrast, arm-mounted weapons would still be able to (non-instantaneously) adjust themselves vertically (assuming an undamaged Upper Arm Actuator is present in the arm(s) in question) and horizontally (assuming an undamaged Lower Arm Actuator is present in the arm(s) in question).

Thoughts?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 19 June 2013 - 12:00 PM.

[Blackfire1]

There shouldn't be torso convergence at all. Or at least a controllable slider in the mech lab to get a range.

[MustrumRidcully]

Darren Tyler, on 19 June 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Then make a 6 ppc mech with the mechs from 3050 and show me how hot it gets.
I also said from lore, novels as well. That is very well canon. A mech would not be able to withstand the heat.

100 Ton Mech. 300 XL Engine. 18 Double Heat Sinks (must be a mech without hand actuators). 6 PPCs. Produces 60 heat per shot, sinks 36. After an alpha, you're at 24 heat and are likely to shut down.

I still have some spare weight left on this mech. So the mech might also be able to carry BAP, ECM and AMS. (Actually, I settled for 2 Jump Jets and ECM.)
If this was a Clan Mech, it wouldn'T have been so difficult squeezing all those double heat sinks in the mech.


But ultimately, two things:
1) The 6 PPC Stalker is possible in MW:O, but still not a good idea.
2) The 6 PPC Stalker is possible because of a ridiculous high heat capacity.
3) All high heat alpha strike builds are possible because of the high heat capacity, and the low heat dissipation gives little reason to not put out all your firepower and heat in a short burst.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 19 June 2013 - 12:18 PM.

[TexAce]

Strum Wealh, on 19 June 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

Rather than have multiple crosshairs, all torso weapons could/would be locked in place (both horizontally and vertically) relative to the torso so that they converge on the reticle's center point at their max. effective/optimal range and dicerge when .

This is essentially how the wing-mounted guns on WWII military aircraft were set, in a process called "harmonization".

(In this example, the red lines show some of aircraft's guns are harmonized to a distance of ~200 meters, the green lines show some of aircraft's guns are harmonized to a distance of ~800 meters, and the blue lines show that the unharmonized guns fire straight ahead in parallel paths and do not converge at all.)

For example, twin torso-mounted PPCs (as found on the stock AWS-8Q, for instance) would converge to a single point at 540 meters, with the impact points diverging as one moves away from that point (either toward or away from the firing unit).

Likewise, twin torso-mounted Medium Lasers (such as seen on the stock AS7-D, CPLT-C1, CN9-A, and CTF-3D) would converge to a single point at 270 meters, with the impact points diverging as one moves away from that point (either toward or away from the firing unit).

In the case of non-twinned weapons (a Large Laser in one side-torso and an ER Large Laser in the other side-torso), each weapon would be set to converge at its respective effective/optimal range (540 meters for the LL and 675 meters for the ERLL).

By contrast, arm-mounted weapons would still be able to (non-instantaneously) adjust themselves vertically (assuming an undamaged Upper Arm Actuator is present in the arm(s) in question) and horizontally (assuming an undamaged Lower Arm Actuator is present in the arm(s) in question).

Thoughts?

Man I would LOVE this, brings the "thinking" back into the "Thinking Man's Shooter".

But unfortunately I don't see PGI ever doing something like this, becuase they fear to scare away all the casual players, who dont give a **** how it works and who only want to blow out some cash for cheese.