37 replies to this topic

[Unbound Inferno]

So, I think I've had this idea once before - don't know why I disregarded it - but Karl Streiger reminded me of it.

Turn the PPC into a very short and limited duration 'beam' damage, much like other lasers.

The idea I think came about how it has the beam look in this game, yet its a completely front-loaded weapon. It is one of the defining factors that makes it infinetly better than Large Lasers or any other Pulse Laser option for those with good aim as it meshes perfectly well with this game's pinpoint accuracy.

So, in an effort to try and mitigate the damage, why not alter it into a short-duration beam?

I'm not talking change the animation, or completely remove the effects, just alter the damage so its spread over that short 0.5 or 0.25 sec duration the visual beam lasts. The result would be exactly as we see in Pulse and other Lasers. The damage hits, and as the target inevitably moves the damage spreads. The shorter than normal duration of the beam makes it still stand out at the peak of the energy class, but it would help drastically to reduce the damage received.

So, what do you all think?

[Mechteric]

I'm actually ok with it being different from lasers as an instant damage weapon, but I would actually accept a very short beam duration. Say 0.25 seconds?

Alternatively if PPCs did splash damage, at the cost of less direct damage, that might be acceptable as well.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 01 July 2013 - 07:41 AM.

[Unbound Inferno]

I'm no fan of the 'splash' effect in how PGI has the current hitboxes designed.

Remember LRMpocolypse? Add a splash to PPC and we'll see that PPCpocolypse that'll really ruin your day.

IF PGI can fix the design basic on how splash damage is received on the mechs to not instantly translate into CT damage, I might be up for it, but for now I think its a really bad idea.

[Urdnot Mau]

That would actually help the meta a lot. In the current state of the game assaults and heavy mechs are very much the favorite class, the most popular. All due to its firepower and reasonable speed. If your sugestion were to be implemented, i guess we would see less people fleeing from medium class, because they would be able to take advantage from that good speed against PPCs, the most unbalanced and popular weapon right now. They would suffer less damage due to their movement. Meanwhile, heavy and assault mechs would be more vulnerable to this effect because of their lower speed, lower torso movement, etc.

[GODzillaGSPB]

I actually quite like the idea. So a moving target could avoid some of the damage when the shot glances it on a shoulder. Or you can do a quick turn and spread it out a bit. Since the ppc is a mix between energy and ballistic this might make sense both in the "fictional science" way as well as in gameplay-terms.

Then add a bit of that other idea- ppcs do 50% of their damage as splash damage - and you might not need a heat-nerf, projectile-speed-nerf or any of those ideas that make the ppc-boat-users cry into their pillows.

[Unbound Inferno]

Hm

GODzillaGSPB, on 01 July 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

I actually quite like the idea. So a moving target could avoid some of the damage when the shot glances it on a shoulder. Or you can do a quick turn and spread it out a bit. Since the ppc is a mix between energy and ballistic this might make sense both in the "fictional science" way as well as in gameplay-terms.

Then add a bit of that other idea- ppcs do 50% of their damage as splash damage - and you might not need a heat-nerf, projectile-speed-nerf or any of those ideas that make the ppc-boat-users cry into their pillows.

I still dislike the splash, and have thought of that partial up-front then over time damage and it isn't as useful.

In the aspect of where its dangerous at 4x PPC at 50% you are still talking about dealing 10 damage on one pinpoint spot at extreme range and 20 closer. That extreme does become less of a hassle, but it still lets the close encounters dominate over other opponents. 20 points is a huge margin still for such an unlimited weapon.

The reasons for splash is as stated above, the hitbox designs from PGI are a mess. We'll have CT cores from hell that way and I don't want it.

[Trip Hammer]

I would actually like to see the PPC/ERPPC turned into a short duration beam weapon. It would help to stop some of the boating we are seeing without having to go the extreme example of the extra weapon heat that they are going to try.

Just my opinion.

[Mokou]

But PPC is not beam, it is ionic particle "bullet".

CapperDeluxe, on 01 July 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

Say 0.25 seconds?

0.25 sec is not short duration.

Edited by Mokou, 01 July 2013 - 08:37 AM.

[JokerVictor]

I remember an idea that floated around in CB that I thought was really interesting was adding an 'aiming laser' type effect for .1-.25 seconds before the PPC's fire.

But, this was when they still had a firing delay and the projectile speed was still 1200 m/s.

Adding the firing delay back in would probably be a good idea at this point, though.

[Roland]

I am absolutely baffled by the folks suggesting that the firing delay which resulted from terribad netcode was actually a feature.

[Hellcat420]

no. the ppc is not an extra large laser. its the heat system thats broken, not the weapons.

Edited by Hellcat420, 01 July 2013 - 08:57 AM.

[Tezcatli]

That seems a little extreme. It's one thing to lower heat or cooldown. But changing the weapon itself into something it's not. That's just opens the door to this not being based on Battletech.

Personally. I like it as a strong accurate weapon. But just not boated to the heavens. Personally just raise the heat up on it. Give solid heat penalties against more then two, except for mechs that are known for carrying more then that. Like the Awesome, which could use something to make it stand out more.

[JokerVictor]

Roland, on 01 July 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

I am absolutely baffled by the folks suggesting that the firing delay which resulted from terribad netcode was actually a feature.

Well of course I know that it wasn't intended, but it did have the effect of making PPC's less accurate. Which is kinda what this thread is about isn't it?

Edit: I should add that I'm not advocating for it, it's just a thought.

Edited by JokerVictor, 01 July 2013 - 09:09 AM.

[XSerjo]

Hellcat420, on 01 July 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

no. the ppc is not an extra large laser. its the heat system thats broken, not the weapons.

Why not? It's beam weapon. All beam weapons are very-very-well balanced - why not?
It's impossible to balance high-pinpoint-damage weapons in game, because hit-mechanics is based on board game (with hits randomization). Beam weapons and high-DPS weapons are easy to balance - they gives is natural "randomization" based on player skill.

Edited by XSerjo, 01 July 2013 - 09:14 AM.

[Lostdragon]

My concern is making PPCs a beam weapon might indirectly hurt lights. Right now light pilots can make PPC users miss, especially if they are very close or very far away. Adding a duration virtually ensures a hit every time. When you are talking about 10 damage deliverd over .25s even a quick swipe across a running light is going to deal damage to multiple components and that is far worse for the light than a complete miss.

So while adding a beam duration would make torso twisting a bit more viable defense it would help heavier mechs disproportionately compared to lighter mechs that can avoid some PPC fire now. It would also make PPCs more effective in the hands of those who cannot aim well. After Streaks lasers are probably the easiest thing for people to use to deal with lights because they can do some damage just by raking the beams across a light. As skill level goes up you see more people able to hit fast movers with projectile weapons and I think that is a hallmark of a good player.

I feel the problem of PPCs delivering too much pinpoint damage can be dealt without changing the mechanics of the weapon itself.

[Unbound Inferno]

Tezcatli, on 01 July 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

That seems a little extreme. It's one thing to lower heat or cooldown. But changing the weapon itself into something it's not. That's just opens the door to this not being based on Battletech.

Personally. I like it as a strong accurate weapon. But just not boated to the heavens. Personally just raise the heat up on it. Give solid heat penalties against more then two, except for mechs that are known for carrying more then that. Like the Awesome, which could use something to make it stand out more.

They already have, and in previous MW games it was drastically different. However as per the description;

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/PPC


Description
The Particle Projector Cannon (or PPC) is a unique energy weapon. PPCs fire a concentrated stream of protons or ions at a target, causing damage through both thermal and kinetic energy.^[3]As such, despite being an energy weapon, it produces recoil. The lethality of the weapon rivals that of a higher-caliber autocannon; just three shots from a PPC will vaporize two tons of standard military-grade armor.^[4] Targets hit by multiple, simultaneous PPCs can also suffer electrical side-effects, such as overloaded computer systems or targeting sensors.^[5] The ion beam also extends to much farther ranges than autocannon fire, though PPCs generate large amounts of waste heat.

It clearly describes it being an ion BEAM weapon. In previous MW games (at least 2 I think, not sure if more) it was featured as a cohesive ball of energy to represent that front-loaded damage. Probably where the idea of the weapon style came from and how it stuck.

However in lore and in the the game's mechanics, it is a beam weapon and looks that way.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 01 July 2013 - 09:38 AM.

[General Taskeen]

Basically at the end of the MW4 Vengeance Intro is what people are talking about. Where Mech Leader Noob McGee goes all "Derp" and trys to take on 4 enemy Mechs with MWO MG's™. And then teh enemy Uziel goes "boom take some my PPC beams."



You can see the uziel fire the classic looking 'spiral' beam

[Monky]

With the current gameplay this would basically make PPC a long range pulse laser done right, I think it would be pretty overpowered with only a minimal effect on alpha boat gameplay. 0.25 seconds w/instant damage is enough to wipe out a light's legs with 10 damage per shot, way easy.

Edited by Monky, 01 July 2013 - 11:10 AM.

[NachoFoot]

There's only a couple of loadouts that can effectively utilize PPCs. Most mechs (such as the Stalker) are better off with other cheese builds. PPCs are overrated and it doesn't take a smart player to realize it.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Unbound Inferno, on 01 July 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

The result would be exactly as we see in Pulse and other Lasers. The damage hits, and as the target inevitably moves the damage spreads. The shorter than normal duration of the beam makes it still stand out at the peak of the energy class, but it would help drastically to reduce the damage received.
So, what do you all think?

So what is the differnce between your suggestd PPC and a Large Pulse Laser (beside the fact that a PPC has a longer range, lower heat, knockback, and ECM jamming).

I don't think the problems with the PPC are going to be solved by displacing another weapon system.