58 replies to this topic

[Otto Cannon]

Victor Morson, on 01 July 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

He never said what size of island though, I mean Australia could hold a lot of players...

[Fate 6]

Dornhal, on 01 July 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

PGI states their intentions through their work.

Its not as fast or as equal as most of the whiners on the forum want, but its slow, deliberate, and careful.

It will get where it needs to be on their own, and I trust them to put it in the perfect place.

The problem is that, instead of fixing a lot of gameplay problems, they simply put a bandain on them, and it has ALWAYS come back to haunt us (ECM, Missile changes in general, PPCs, R&R, etc). Yes, the changes are slow, but no they are not very deliberate or careful.

EDIT: PGI needs to start acting like the guys at Riot or even DE (Warframe community has real involvement in the game). Talk to the players. Let us know things. It's not that hard, really. I mean, come on, we haven't been that wrong about things have we? ECM definitely did break the game, for example.

Edited by Fate 6, 02 July 2013 - 04:40 AM.

[El Bandito]

nitra, on 02 July 2013 - 04:25 AM, said:

they kinda let us know where they are at in the last ask the devs ... < 30 days for 3pv they have a post in the works regarding the state of community warfare and they have been working working working to get the game ready for launch becase that deadline is approaching fast . its all right here. Ask da devs 41 ANSWRED

All the answers are vague in the lines of "Stay Tuned", "Somewhere in the future", "No ETA", "We are exploring it" etc...
Is there a guy in PGI who has a clear idea of what every department is doing?

[Galen Crayn]

In the podcast PGI told us what they want to do. The first step is the critical heat penalty and a little splash damage (25%) for PPC`s that goes to a nearby zone. Then they want to see how it works and if it is not enough they want to fix it again.

http://www.nogutsnog...288e8d08161e7f6

Minute 32 they start talking about balance (minute 35 Russ is talking)

Edited by Galen Crayn, 02 July 2013 - 04:55 AM.

[WhupAzz]

Victor Morson, on 01 July 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

Nah bud, problems yours.

Sooooo this Russ person actually said that and that's not a made up profile?

Not much point in seeing what the next few patches produce then if that's there current stance on the game. I'll take my £60 for Phoenix elsewhere thanks and just keep plodding along in my 6xPPC stalker, got 5 kills and 900 damage with it last night in a match lol.

[Ralgas]

Vic you aren't going to get anything out of them. Russ stated in the last podcast they wont, because it push US to play with idea's instead of flocking to the "yeh sorry guys this one's a bit strong at the moment" weapon, skewing the behind the scenes data.

[El Bandito]

Galen Crayn, on 02 July 2013 - 04:50 AM, said:

In the podcast PGI told us what they want to do. The first step is the critical heat penalty and a little splash damage (25%) for PPC`s that goes to a nearby zone. Then they want to see how it works and if it is not enough they want to fix it again. http://www.nogutsnog...288e8d08161e7f6 Minute 32 they start talking about balance (minute 35 Russ is talking)

Does it cost them an arm and a leg to put the information in the forums? You know, the place where most MWO players actually check out?

[Randalf Yorgen]

Fate 6, on 02 July 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

EDIT: PGI needs to start acting like the guys at Riot or even DE (Warframe community has real involvement in the game). Talk to the players. Let us know things. It's not that hard, really. I mean, come on, we haven't been that wrong about things have we? ECM definitely did break the game, for example.

PGI used to talk to us all the time, share jokes and came off as a really great bunch of guys, of course this was early in closed beta before the founders were let in. After that the Crap storm started and they trickled away and now only use special threads or tweets to talk to us. We have volunteer mods everywhere but these guys aren't PGI, they have been given a script and a set of guidelines and instructions to keep the chat within those lines. It's sad, I would walk away from a crap storm like these forums as well but unfortunately this is still the main method for talking to their playing/paying customers. Have they drifted, yes they have, for the better? I don't know, doesn't feel like it but I don't know all the pieces..... because they have walked away from this crap storm. It's all inter connected just like the weapons/heat/dmg system they have. As far as I am concerned it should be whole numbers for damage and heat. A/C20 does 20 points to the area hit. LRM20 does 20 points broken up into groups of five and applied to 4 different, random locations, MG 10 rounds = 1 point (ok so that's not a whole number but it is rounded) lasers are simple.... sml = 1 point, medium = 3 and lrg = 5, Pulse sml =2 medium = 4 and pulse lrg = 6 but has a rng reduction and slight heat boost but recycles faster. PPC/ERPPC = 10 (15 for clan) and gauss is flat out 20. SRM is 2 points per missile that hits each to a separate random location streaks just have a higher hit chance not a grouped hit. Heat is simple MG=0 small laser = 3, med 5, lrg 7, pulse 4, 6, 9 PPC 10 ERPPC 15, lrms, 5=5, 10=6, 15=7, 20=8 etc etc. The only thing PGI has done wrong so far is that they have forgotten the KISS rule when it comes to weapons and heat and damage. KISS, Keep it simple and stupid (the and is optional) With doubled armour values this weapons/damage heat system works just fine and would resolve a great deal of their problems, Well that's my opinion of course and I expect haters are going to jump all over it but I don't care about that. PGI has people who care about this project but they are losing them in the fog.

[Galen Crayn]

I see it the same way. The forum has to be the place for such informations... But it is like it is. You have to listen to the podcasts for all information you allways wanted...

[Randalf Yorgen]

Galen Crayn, on 02 July 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

I see it the same way. The forum has to be the place for such informations... But it is like it is. You have to listen to the podcasts for all information you allways wanted...

But being an older player who isn't plugged into twitter or podcasts but who has a very high credit limit on my credit card shouldn't they be making sure that the information was getting to me and not just the new generation of tweens, 20's and early 30ishes?

[PanzerMagier]

Dornhal, on 01 July 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

PGI states their intentions through their work.

Its not as fast or as equal as most of the whiners on the forum want, but its slow, deliberate, and careful.

It will get where it needs to be on their own, and I trust them to put it in the perfect place.

At the time they get this game "perfect" in their own way. Everyone in this forum would have died from old age.

[Galen Crayn]

I have never used twitter and podcasts but i have started to learn how it works when i saw the twitter posts with informations that were pretty important. I am 36 years old and i never wanted to use such stuff - but i also wanted the informations

[Koniving]

I signed but while I want them to really look at their weapon systems, I believe the underlying issue is the way heat is handled, overheating is handled, rising thresholds given for additional heatsinks that are the core of alpha abuse, and the virtually unreachable 300% heat necessary to cause instant death. Half the time when I deliberately try to cause a suicide by overheating I'm unsuccessful. It should be something that can be done accidentally, not failed at when attempting to do it deliberately with 6 ER PPCs.

That said there hasn't been any response yet because Paul Inouye is on vacation. Hopefully rethinking balance or at least not getting into too much trouble without the stress of the work environment.

Dornhal, on 01 July 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

PGI states their intentions through their work.

Its not as fast or as equal as most of the whiners on the forum want, but its slow, deliberate, and careful.

Indeed. NGNG #79, Russ has talked about the various ideas they've had over the past month or two. One was doubling internal structure except they realized that's already done. Another that Russ mentioned was an idea I've had (second link of my signature, look for the picture of the Pretty Baby to help you find it and look for "PPC") which was to create a dispersion of damage for PPCs in the form of a splash that won't have the same problems of missiles. But the issue is it would take time to create, script and test and the players want a solution yesterday.

NGNG 79 is found here: http://mwomercs.com/community
The time index is 30 to 42 minutes in. Game and weapon balance, ideas for solving them, etc. are found in that window. When he mentions spreading PPC damage is when he's essentially mentioning an idea I've put forth.

Edited by Koniving, 02 July 2013 - 05:27 AM.

[Victor Morson]

Ralgas, on 02 July 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

Vic you aren't going to get anything out of them. Russ stated in the last podcast they wont, because it push US to play with idea's instead of flocking to the "yeh sorry guys this one's a bit strong at the moment" weapon, skewing the behind the scenes data.

Can you link me to which podcast this was? I'm actually curious now. Because if his statement was half as dumb as you are implying, it should be addressed. I hope there's some lost in translation thing going on.

Koniving, on 02 July 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

NGNG 79 is found here: http://mwomercs.com/community
The time index is 30 to 42 minutes in. Game and weapon balance, ideas for solving them, etc. are found in that window. When he mentions spreading PPC damage is when he's essentially mentioning an idea I've put forth.

If they want to make a different system (good luck given they can't even get splash to work right with missiles) for PPCs, that's all well and good, but I'd like to request they take some feedback and spend an hour making some balance changes as they are now.

If they want to tune weapons, it should be happening weekly. This is horrendous.

[Cycleboy]

Randalf Yorgen, on 02 July 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

But being an older player who isn't plugged into twitter or podcasts but who has a very high credit limit on my credit card shouldn't they be making sure that the information was getting to me and not just the new generation of tweens, 20's and early 30ishes?

QFT! I was going to buy Founders... but waited 2 days too long to try to purchase. Bought $100 in MC to get some bays and buy mech's to level faster. Haven't bought anything else... haven't played in over a month. Waiting to see how some changes shake out. Would LOVE to buy the Phoenix package, but I want some direction statements. Vision statements. I want to know where they are taking this. Haven't even posted since I stopped playing, but I check the forums every couple days to see what the latest complaints are.

Is this a FPS that is mech based? Or is it going for a MMO-sim of 31st Century warfare? What are the weapon "visions" for final state? Not just dam/heat, but how they see the interplay? Laz are for brawling, along with large bore AC. PPC are to soften. How do they see missiles finally working? I wondered how LRMs need complete lock thru whole flight... are they radio controlled or something? Shouldn't the lock be programmed in at launch? People hate the RNG (its a game, it has RNGs somewhere, people) but the LRMs do have some randomness in pathing and hitting... I find that acceptable. Etc. Etc.

To have a gaming "community" you need the info coming out in more than tweets and blurbs. You'll have loudmouths. You'll have screaming. But you won't have people in the dark and afraid.

[Koniving]

Galen Crayn, on 02 July 2013 - 04:50 AM, said:

In the podcast PGI told us what they want to do. The first step is the critical heat penalty and a little splash damage (25%) for PPC`s that goes to a nearby zone. Then they want to see how it works and if it is not enough they want to fix it again.

http://www.nogutsnog...288e8d08161e7f6

Minute 32 they start talking about balance (minute 35 Russ is talking)

Pumped out there. Broadcasted live on the 27th. This quote of mine below from the 22nd in response to gameplay balance.

(There's alot more than this; many of the ideas I gave were already being implemented such as AC multi-shot variants [after all there's only supposed to be one type of AC/20 that does a single 203mm shell and it's only mountable on a certain type of tank because firing it would cause even the Atlas to potentially lose balance if done while not braced. When have you seen an Atlas holding still and braced?] They're all supposed to be multi-shot weapons and UAC weapons approximately 75 to 25% less of a caliber, which means that many more shots needing to go downrange before totalling the intended damage. The question is whether or not the single shot AC/20 variant disappears, and how the other AC variants behave. Obviously the advantage of a multi-shot over the single shot is you have leeway for bad aim and easier time hitting fast targets. The disadvantages of course are all the smoke and flashes blinding you as well as the fact that you can't pinpoint your damage. However that's the main idea.)

But, the reason for my quote below is that Russ has mentioned my PPC idea in some form, despite being on some far off page somewhere. So that's quoted below. Again this is only an excerpt of the full post that takes up a considerable amount of scrolling with lots of constructive ideas.

Koniving, on 22 June 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

• PPCs and dispersion damage. From a graphical standpoint when the PPC hits a target there's a splash-like visual effect. Why not capitalize on that? But let's redesign the splash system in general, instead of adding to the total damage why not divide from a total damage pool so if you hit two sections with the splash, the damage would be divided into 5 here and 5 there (simplified) or divide it so that more is at the impact site and 'some' spreads to the adjacent section within the splash range.

PPC effect as it hits my Pretty Baby.



Note the visual fidelity of the dispersion across my mech. The visuals are already there; give it some proper splash that divides damage from a pool of 10.

• Speaking of splash, consider using the same method to fix splash damage on missiles; divide from a damage pool and place their damage back to 2.5 (SRMs) and 1.8 or so (LRMs). Then have this damage divided into the splash with the concentration on where it hits and maybe 25% of 2.5 (0.625) placed into splash. This focuses the remaining 1.875 damage directly where it hits. After all missiles should try to pierce and thrust its explosive kinetic energy into the mech's interior not spread damage around the surface; that should be an afterthought.
  
• Keep Gauss Rifles as they are. Between being 15 tons, highly volatile, and a general high risk to carry they are plenty balanced and worthy of the way they deal their damage. They can still remain the sniper's favorite weapon. It's super hard to boat them and no one is complaining yet.
  
• We just reduced a lot of concentrated pinpoint damage issues without any cones of accuracy or any non-skill based crazy ideas. We kept Bryan's vision of a skill-based environment. The changes in most cases are simple ticks in the CryEngine or simple 5 second script edits that even I can do (reworking splash not so much) which means ~far less~ work for the entire team, Paul.

YAY! (Btw. I noticed Russ mentioned "25%" of the total damage going into splash as well. Look at the bullet on missile splash. Notice the percentage? Glee!)

Edited by Koniving, 02 July 2013 - 05:49 AM.

[Ralgas]

It's that link Kon (and the time index i believe) is talking about you quoted below me

Edited by Ralgas, 02 July 2013 - 05:44 AM.

[BigMekkUrDakka]

they too busy implementing 3pv and creating hero mechs to bother with some delusional "balance"

[RiceyFighter]

They have not fixed PPC boating for 3 months. 3 FRIGGING MONTHS OF PPC DOMINATION. SERIOUSLY PGI! GET YOUR S*** TOGETHER!

Edited by RiceyFighter, 02 July 2013 - 05:53 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Victor Morson, on 01 July 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

Some mood music...



... slow & deliberate? Let's look at how they've handled everything.

LRMs
Massively overpowered
Massively overpowered, completely stopped AMS, making it a wash
Completely underpowered
Completely overpowered
Just needing a small speed buff...
Gutted to 0.7.. Depressingly underpowered
Massively over buffed
Underbuffed, needing a small damage buff

Pulse Lasers
Completely too hot and not worth using
Completely too cool and better than everything
Damage buffed with heat, making them unusable
Heat reduced, making them too good
Head reintroduced, making them too bad
"Normalization" that undid everything back to 0, only fixing the SPL and none of the others.

PPCs
Horrendously underpowered
Moderately useful
Even worse
KING OF THE WORLD
.
.
.
KING OF THE WORLD

ER Large Laser
Heat and duration is way too high
Duration and heat are brought down but not enough
Heat continues to go up and down
Goto Start: Heat and duration is way too high

SRMs
Really useful
Flight path makes using them way harder, still useful
Really useful
Damage dropped, total crap
HSR and Pattern changes, still underpowered

... but I could keep going with weapons. Let's go to Equipment!

ECM
ECM hard locks all missiles, killing LRM and Streak boats and forcing ECM on everyone
ECM gets TAG weakness
ECM gets BAP weakness
ECM is now pretty much sub-par, hard-locking systems in very specific scenarios instead of providing a moderate benefit more of the time

Artillery Strikes & Airstrikes
Enter the game with the promise of "making lights run off points." Turns out to be a 2 damage grenade you can teleport and some recycled graphics. All the upgrades make them impossible to hit with.
.
.
We got slightly more damage, I guess.

NARC
NARC is introduced too heavy, too hard to hit with, and too ammo dependent.
.
.
NARC loses ability to work with Artemis, the thing every missile boat has.

..... I'm just getting tired at this point. Methodical and careful, for sure!

I think you proved buddeis point Victor. Until it is the way YOU want it, PGI will never be doing it right.