25 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Things to consider regarding current topics:

Convergence: It's a nasty little ****** with the current pinpoint alpha meta- and it's not tabletop.
Consideration: Imagine removing convergence.. and then trying to fight a light mech. (Don't forget, convergence isn't TT, but neither is real time movement at 150kph with low profile shots.)
Removing convergence would undo everything HSR did when it came to streaks. HSR made the Laser Jenner a contender again.. even against the SSRM lights. Remove Convergence, and Streaks will be the light-fighting requirement.
Several other things related to that to consider.. but for a later time. (like Arm actuators and what the AS7 RS and Cataphract 3D would mean.)

Tonnage limit: Seems like a free-for-all
Consideration: Having the MM try to add up a total tonnage to make sure each match has a set amount of lights, assaults, etc.. would only make the queues longer, if they're possible in the end... Then you get the lovely situations of 8 Heavies versus 4-5 Assaults and 3-4 lights. Tonnage matching in theory already does this.. and clearly it's not working like it's intended to, which means Tonnage limit wouldn't either.
Also: PGI already said they're not working on that right now- for some of the above reasons.

AC Cluster shot idea:
All the disadvantages of the lasers. (Spread out damage)
All the disadvantages of ACs (weighing 2-15x more)
Bad idea.

PPC Beam: Just a heavier large laser with a minimum range. (It has recoil because the "projectile" is suppose to have mass)
(I wish PGI would fix the heat.. and they might- but only after they discover that the current Heat-amp idea will fail dismally.)

------------------------------

Speculations about PGI:
They are building phoenix mechs instead of working on balance.

PGI has different teams doing different things. Stop. Think about that for a second.
PGI has about 45 staffers. Among those 45 staffers, there are
Artist(s?) (like Flying Debris/Alex)
3D Animators (that work with his concept art)
Map Designers
Netcode Engineers
UI Engineers
Administration
PR (Poor Garth)
Financial professionals. (The money grubbers)
And a bunch of other sections that I can't think of off the top of my head.

They're working with a game engine that may or may not be the best for this situation, but it's what they have. They're reworking the engine as they go, to make it do what they want it to do.

I'm not thrilled with many of PGI's decisions, and as such, i personally think my account has been flagged for ignoring. (Evidence being that I gave up on asking questions in the AtDs as not one has been answered.)

However: I do recognize why they have such a "slow" pace of doing things.
With their comparatively tiny team, they're trying to move forward with the project (Adding new mechs, maps, UI, movement code- which we get soon, CWars stuff and prep for "Launch") while simultaneously trying to fix bugs, and balance things already put in.

I'm a brand new programmer.. and I can already tell that programming, especially having to rework something someone else belt, is extremely tedious and time consuming.

So while I do hold PGI accountable for decisions such as the ECM debacle and this new heat-penalty mechanic (DoA as is) The slower pace of balancing doesn't really surprise me.
The more I think of it, the more proud I am of the team for being able to push out content at the rate they are, while still building newer stuff behind the scenes.

45 people
UI 2.0
Clans?
CWars
Phoenix
Maps
Mechs
Movement code
DEALING WITH US
several other things It's too late for me to think about.

---------------------------------------
Considerations.

[Windies]

I guess if they didn't want to have to deal with those things, they probably shouldn't have chosen to work in this profession. No offense to them, but as a consumer my focus is on the product or products they produce and not the needs or the staffing of the company. That should be the companies obligation.

[Livewyr]

Clearly, they do want to go through all the effort, foreseen, and unforeseen. Despite us...and while I'll never be satisfied, I can at least be sure they're not sitting around the office picking their noses.


EDIT:
Actually started thinking about that listening to Russ talk about the effort to get the Phoenix mechs.. lawyers ($$$$$$) and negotiations and apparently a lot of stress.. since apparently he considered giving up a few times.. which we'd have been none the wiser about. (He didn't have to.. at all.)

Edited by Livewyr, 01 July 2013 - 09:39 PM.

[Texas Merc]

let us see what tomorrow holds.

[Deathlike]

When you see the questions picked in the AtD posts and give answers that are the best equivalent to someone that hates their job (and I don't think Bryan hates his job), you might as well be drilling teeth at PGI with PPCs.

[Livewyr]

Judging from the AtDs.. I don't think Bryan hates his job either- but I certainly thinks he regrets starting AtDs at the moment.

[Texas Merc]

ehh there is just a lot they cant tell us yet and the rapid fan/founder wants to know it all.

Noone saw the Reseens coming and yet I love it even though I haven't bought it yet.

they cant just spill the beans on stuff and when it doesn't come out right then what? more forum rage?

[Unbound Inferno]

Yay! PGI defender! Lets have some fun.

Let's look at the game as it is now. PPC hell, with a flair of LRMs en masse, but only if you can boat 60+ (and a good team) while we get few varieties unless your supposed "ELO Skill" is low enough to be where people don't bother like that. And the world gets mocked by the competitive "upper class" shtick that comes with it here. Gotta love forums.

We suffer from constant random PUG facing overly competitive coordinated teamplay (unless you happen to be one) in a game environment that was bred from single-player "you rule" design and try to mask a competitive PvP as something casual. Its not working and we have more players frustrated by one-shot-kills, swarmed deaths or cap rushers than almost anything else to even ask about how its balanced. A no-fun game really kills the perspective on most, ya know? Makes me wonder how many that have registered are even bothering to log in and play to any relative degree anymore.

This biased fear of the unknown really doesn't want to even entertain the idea of trying something new - and get this! we're in BETA! You know, where we are supposed to test this game, find out its not working (it isn't) and try something new! Right? No? Well, that's odd...

Which adds up even so far into the wonderful matchmaker that is probably which its probably best I don't mention my thoughts on it. Numerous solutions for alternatives have been wrought including a very basic, extremely simple drop-down for Solo drops or Team drops to split the obvious "coordination" bracket we suffer under. Yet we have no word or any inquiry of even that simple reprieve from occurring, at all and likely never will.

Livewyr, on 01 July 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

Speculations about PGI:
They are building phoenix mechs instead of working on balance.

PGI has different teams doing different things. Stop. Think about that for a second.
PGI has about 45 staffers. Among those 45 staffers, there are
Artist(s?) (like Flying Debris/Alex)
3D Animators (that work with his concept art)
Map Designers
Netcode Engineers
UI Engineers
Administration
PR (Poor Garth)
Financial professionals. (The money grubbers)
And a bunch of other sections that I can't think of off the top of my head.

Thinking about it, that's what, a dozen divisions, 3-4 people each? Within a division usually a team of people working together on ONE project at a time to make it come out faster. Or at least that's what I'd expect. Okay, think about that, I have.

What we get is one group (PGI) that can reliably work on releasing ONE thing fast (depending what it is) or one thing well relatively quick. Maybe. It all depends, but its typically just a step at a time if it can work right.

What did we see? Phoenix Mechs. Something new that requires... something from almost all of the listed divisions. Would you look at that? We saw one thing come out relatively well recently with no sights of anything good - after a patch that was less than partial with promises of less on the next one.


But wait, I can guess... multitasking right?

Livewyr, on 01 July 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

UI 2.0
Clans?
CWars
Phoenix
Maps
Mechs
Movement code
DEALING WITH US
several other things It's too late for me to think about.

Bolded DEALING WITH US should be bolded. They all aren't, like maybe one guy and some volunteers as best I know is - directly at least. The rest? As far as we know could be happily oblivious and doing their jobs. All... uh, how many is that list? More than what's there. Alot more I think.

Which gives us what exactly?

Nearly everything there, delayed from what was expected and most likely "soon" - until further notice. Like later. Indefinite timeframe if its multitasking, as the work is never done. Not every department is needed for every little thing, and good coordination and work can come up with alot - and granted, they have done a phenomenal job it seems so far. Kinda, Maybe? Well, depends on who and when you ask.

Right now? Well? Yeah... there IS a reason there is a ton of frustration on the boards.

[SirLANsalot]

PGI is a small company compared to....well the rest of the gaming universe. They are taking on one of the biggest names in that gaming universe that has lade dead and dormant for YEARS. We finally get TWO games at the same time baring this grand name (MWO/MW:T). MWO is much farther along as MW:T is still in CB with there own founders program.

PGI is also pumping out mechs now that they have a set rhythm of production. Before that it was hit or miss if we got a mech...AT ALL, now we get a mech like clockwork every month. This means they have it all down and ready, and production is running smoothly in the ART department. Most mechs do have to deal with the Art department and very little with the rest of the team. One of two guys from programming are all that is needed (and most likely are all that is spared/used) to get the new mech setup with its hit boxes properly and making sure it moves around and collides with everything like it should. Also making sure it uses the proper models when swapping guns on it, and ofc programming in the mechlab for the new mech. 80% of that is all Arts job, and only at the finalization part is where it crosses over into programming. The remaining portions of PGI are all hard at work getting UI 2.0 (mostly programmings job, some of it is arts job) and this very buggy net-code all down.


Case in point. BE EFFING HAPPY WE EVEN HAVE A MECHWARRIOR GAME. Otherwise....Theres the door, GET OUT!

[El Bandito]

Livewyr, on 01 July 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

45 people UI 2.0 Clans? CWars Phoenix Maps Mechs Movement code DEALING WITH US several other things It's too late for me to think about. --------------------------------------- Considerations.

No balancing team, I suppose.

[mike29tw]

Livewyr, on 01 July 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

The more I think of it, the more proud I am of the team for being able to push out content at the rate they are, while still building newer stuff behind the scenes.

45 people
UI 2.0
Clans?
CWars
Phoenix
Maps
Mechs
Movement code
DEALING WITH US
several other things It's too late for me to think about.

---------------------------------------
Considerations.

The last time they dealt with us was......when they nuked general discussion, so I wouldn't consider that a feat at the moment.

[Livewyr]

Unbound Inferno, on 01 July 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

Yay! PGI defender! Lets have some fun.

Well, certainly didn't take long to get labeled a PGI defender. (used to be called a White Knight AFAIK)
I'm not a PGI defender (if you had actually read the OP, you might have caught that)

I said:
"So while I do hold PGI accountable for decisions such as the ECM debacle and this new heat-penalty mechanic (DoA as is) The slower pace of balancing doesn't really surprise me."

Now that we've established that you're just spewing venom from the hip, lets have some fun.

You said:
"Let's look at the game as it is now. PPC hell, with a flair of LRMs en masse, but only if you can boat 60+ (and a good team) while we get few varieties unless your supposed "ELO Skill" is low enough to be where people don't bother like that. And the world gets mocked by the competitive "upper class" shtick that comes with it here. Gotta love forums."

Seems to be that slow balance I was talking about...appearing even slower when armchair warrior spends an hour or so doing a write-up post on how PGi completely screwed it up and the total overhaul they need to do, and expecting it to be in the next patch or two. (The whole point of that half of the OP is to get it through heads: Programming takes a LOT of time, and there are a lot of different things going on at once, independent of each other.)


"We suffer from constant random PUG facing overly competitive coordinated teamplay (unless you happen to be one) in a game environment that was bred from single-player "you rule" design and try to mask a competitive PvP as something casual. Its not working and we have more players frustrated by one-shot-kills, swarmed deaths or cap rushers than almost anything else to even ask about how its balanced. A no-fun game really kills the perspective on most, ya know? Makes me wonder how many that have registered are even bothering to log in and play to any relative degree anymore."

I would imagine fewer players log in now- and that is unfortunate.
However: In all the games I played last night(and there were a lot), I didn't lose to a cap once.
I got one shot once in a later 8man (I call it luck, but it might have been deadly skill) with a cockpit shot while I was backing behind cover.
Swarm death doesn't happen anymore, I haven't seen that in a long time, lights get legged too easily.

If that is happening to you constantly, maybe you're in.... ELO HELL!!! bwahahahahaa

But no, seriously, that happens, but it's not constant, quit being a drama queen. The game is still fun despite its shortcomings or we wouldn't still be here.

Reread on all the things they're doing, and then imagine a bunch of other things I hadn't mentioned, and then think about why it might take longer to address things.



"This biased fear of the unknown really doesn't want to even entertain the idea of trying something new - and get this! we're in BETA! You know, where we are supposed to test this game, find out its not working (it isn't) and try something new! Right? No? Well, that's odd..."


We are testing things (splash bug, HUD bugs etc..) and generating numbers. Just because the demanded changes (of which there a numerous different suggestions) aren't happening next patch doesn't mean they aren't happening. (And this is where you keep in mind that I'm *NOT* a white knight- I usually disagree with their fixes...)

"Which adds up even so far into the wonderful matchmaker that is probably which its probably best I don't mention my thoughts on it. Numerous solutions for alternatives have been wrought including a very basic, extremely simple drop-down for Solo drops or Team drops to split the obvious "coordination" bracket we suffer under. Yet we have no word or any inquiry of even that simple reprieve from occurring, at all and likely never will."

So let it be written in an hour.
So let it be coded in a week.
So let it be done.
But it probably won't. (because that statement strengthens the pathos of my argument...and Pathos is something we're short on)


"Thinking about it, that's what, a dozen divisions, 3-4 people each? Within a division usually a team of people working together on ONE project at a time to make it come out faster. Or at least that's what I'd expect. Okay, think about that, I have."


And then consider all the stuff they have to go back and do when something doesn't work right. (PGI definitely needs more extensive internal testing.) Like the great HUD bug hunt of April/May for example... while they were doing that, they couldn't be working on content/features/upgrades.

"What we get is one group (PGI) that can reliably work on releasing ONE thing fast (depending what it is) or one thing well relatively quick. Maybe. It all depends, but its typically just a step at a time if it can work right."


How long do you think it took for movement code to happen? (I'll bet you anything that it wasn't coded in some guys lunch hour...)
We will see what July brings (adding on what Texas said) because there is a lot in the pot at the moment. (I mean hell, just look at the overhaul, UI 2.0 alone.. that is a COMPLETE transplant. It's probably been in the works for over a year now.)

"What did we see? Phoenix Mechs. Something new that requires... something from almost all of the listed divisions. Would you look at that? We saw one thing come out relatively well recently with no sights of anything good - after a patch that was less than partial with promises of less on the next one.

But wait, I can guess... multitasking right?"


Oh, I guess you caught it, kinda.

"Bolded DEALING WITH US should be bolded. They all aren't, like maybe one guy and some volunteers as best I know is - directly at least. The rest? As far as we know could be happily oblivious and doing their jobs. All... uh, how many is that list? More than what's there. Alot more I think."

Almost as if there is a team (Garth) that deals with us, and then asks other devs with the specific technical know-how to give us an extensive write up.. and looking at those, they aren't something you just pull out of your butt in 10 minutes..

"Which gives us what exactly?

Nearly everything there, delayed from what was expected and most likely "soon" - until further notice. Like later. Indefinite timeframe if its multitasking, as the work is never done. Not every department is needed for every little thing, and good coordination and work can come up with alot - and granted, they have done a phenomenal job it seems so far. Kinda, Maybe? Well, depends on who and when you ask.

Right now? Well? Yeah... there IS a reason there is a ton of frustration on the boards."

Congratulations on identifying an opinion.

Well duh, there are disappointing things.. that wasn't the point of this thread at all.
The point, reiterated for those it has been lost on (you), is that reading a bunch of ideas (often conflicting) on the forums does not equate the next patch or two, if it's even feasible in a year.

To expect someone to run before they're walking is to invite disappointment on yourself. To blame them for it is short-sighted stupidity.

El Bandito, on 02 July 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

No balancing team, I suppose.

No, probably not, unless you count Paul's other personalities. (I think it pretty much consists of him and Bryan.)

mike29tw, on 02 July 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

The last time they dealt with us was......when they nuked general discussion, so I wouldn't consider that a feat at the moment.

http://mwomercs.com/...-command-chair/

Not one OP in there says "community manager" by their name..
Dealing with us is not their job, they just do.

I wish they would do more, but to say they don't is false.

-------------------------------------
Had to perform edits.. boards choked on all the quote divisions...

Edited by Livewyr, 02 July 2013 - 05:31 AM.

[Accursed Richards]

Livewyr, on 01 July 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

45 people
UI 2.0
Clans?
CWars
Phoenix
Maps
Mechs
Movement code
DEALING WITH US
several other things It's too late for me to think about.

---------------------------------------
Considerations.

There are two assumptions there that I'd like to examine.

One is that appeasing the player base takes immense effort that would otherwise go elsewhere. But it strikes me that a lot of the annoyance expressed here would be quite easy to appease. A post like "We recognise X isn't working as it should and it's in our list of things to be dealt with.", "That's a good idea, but we can't make that change because of this reason." or "Here are some screenshots from the testing of Community Warfare, see what you think." would only take a couple of minutes, and defuse a lot of anger. I can't argue with a straight face that nobody would complain, but I think a lot of the plaintiffs would be mollified with some very simple steps.

The other is that the player base (the beta testers) must be a burden on developing a game rather an asset in doing so, a necessary evil. The antagonism on the forums can give that impression, but it's not the only way things could be; I think the community could be an enormous asset. There are a lot of thoughtful and articulate people on here who want to help the game, and have produced very well-reasoned writings on things they think would improve it. And the overwhelming impression is that the community is pretty much being ignored, and that they are not regarded as beta testers whose feedback highlights problems the devs don't have time to notice and guides the programmers to a well-working & well-balanced game--but as a necessary evil there to fund development. Apart from neglecting a valuable resource, a lack of engagement with the community only generates bad feeling.

Edit:

Take a look here: http://www.wyrd-game...M2E-Public-Beta

This is the beta for the second edition of a miniatures wargame I'm a fan of. The rules are released each week, and feedback is actively sought after from players, and changes made based on it. You'll notice the forums, while not perfect, have a far better atmosphere than these, and there's a nice sense of camaraderie, of everyone working together to deliver the best finished product they can.

Edited by Accursed Richards, 02 July 2013 - 05:43 AM.

[stjobe]

Just a comment about convergence: Why do you talk about it as if we had it? It's instant, and has been for a long, long time. People want to re-introduce it, not remove it.

I'm still paying a tax of 3,000 XP for every 'mech I own for 10% faster convergence that does nothing.

[Livewyr]

stjobe, on 02 July 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

Just a comment about convergence: Why do you talk about it as if we had it? It's instant, and has been for a long, long time. People want to re-introduce it, not remove it.

I'm still paying a tax of 3,000 XP for every 'mech I own for 10% faster convergence that does nothing.

There are people who want it removed entirely for torsos and places without "proper" actuators.

[Enigmos]

Unbound Inferno, on 01 July 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

Let's look at the game as it is now.

When I read through your list of issues every single one of them is the responsibility of the player. The pilot has control of his builds, not PGI. You want to regulate mech builds by forcing changes in their stats, but changing those stats will only ever make a slightly different build 'the flavor of the month'. Instead of asking for more over-regulation of everyone's game based on your personal preferences modify your own behavior instead, since that is what you have authority over. Don't be so co-dependent on what changes PGI is coming up with to try and build the best game they can, do a little work and figure out how Alpha builds are suboptimal and teach your opponents the error of their ways. And if you can't then those alpha build boaters were right after all, weren't they?

So stand up on your hind legs and make happen what you want to happen, or fail. Then you will be doing your job instead of asking Piranha to play the game for you.

Unbound Inferno, on 01 July 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

Right now? Well? Yeah... there IS a reason there is a ton of frustration on the boards.

...right, and that ONE reason is also the responsibility of the player.

[Budor]

Thats all cool and stuff but July looks like: 1 map and some mechs, maybe 12v12 on the test-server (which i couldnt be less excited about).

Nothing in terms off CW. All we get to hear is its going to be phased which basically means that they will add stuff that is only related to CW but not CW.

I dont see any sort of dealing with us on this forum to be honest. 1 ask the devs every 2 weeks and a monthly post on game "direction" and things that are being "looked at" for the past months. Thats pretty much it...

[Accursed Richards]

OriginalTibs, on 02 July 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

When I read through your list of issues every single one of them is the responsibility of the player. The pilot has control of his builds, not PGI. You want to regulate mech builds by forcing changes in their stats, but changing those stats will only ever make a slightly different build 'the flavor of the month'. Instead of asking for more over-regulation of everyone's game based on your personal preferences modify your own behavior instead, since that is what you have authority over. Don't be so co-dependent on what changes PGI is coming up with to try and build the best game they can, do a little work and figure out how Alpha builds are suboptimal and teach your opponents the error of their ways. And if you can't then those alpha build boaters were right after all, weren't they?

So stand up on your hind legs and make happen what you want to happen, or fail. Then you will be doing your job instead of asking Piranha to play the game for you.
...right, and that ONE reason is also the responsibility of the player.

I disagree Here's why:

If there was a good counter to the alpha builds assuming equal pilot skill other than "hop in one yourself", we would have heard of it. There are players here vastly better than me, who have no doubt put time into trying to find a counter. And none of them have managed it. If they had, even if they hadn't actually shared it, the same trickle-down imitation that lead to alpha builds being so popular would lead to this hypothetical counter proliferating in turn.

As for "don't play boring builds", no doubt some people do find that playstyle fun--winning a lot is typically quite fun, after all. The problem is that driving a quirky, unusual build is considerably less fun if you keep losing to alphamechs. If you have to adopt a style to compete with that style, something's broken.

Something will always be best, but there's no reason for the margin to be so big as to make any choice "well, duh" or "noob trap".

[Tolkien]

Accursed Richards, on 02 July 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

I disagree Here's why:

If there was a good counter to the alpha builds assuming equal pilot skill other than "hop in one yourself", we would have heard of it. There are players here vastly better than me, who have no doubt put time into trying to find a counter. And none of them have managed it. If they had, even if they hadn't actually shared it, the same trickle-down imitation that lead to alpha builds being so popular would lead to this hypothetical counter proliferating in turn.

As for "don't play boring builds", no doubt some people do find that playstyle fun--winning a lot is typically quite fun, after all. The problem is that driving a quirky, unusual build is considerably less fun if you keep losing to alphamechs. If you have to adopt a style to compete with that style, something's broken.

Something will always be best, but there's no reason for the margin to be so big as to make any choice "well, duh" or "noob trap".

Bingo, give the man a gold star.

It's not the players job to use everything available to them just because it's there. It is the devs job to make a game where there is a good reason to use the full spectrum of mechs, equipment, weapons, modules and tactics.

[Orzorn]

Livewyr, on 01 July 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

Actually started thinking about that listening to Russ talk about the effort to get the Phoenix mechs.. lawyers ($$$$$$) and negotiations and apparently a lot of stress.. since apparently he considered giving up a few times.. which we'd have been none the wiser about. (He didn't have to.. at all.)

Can you link me to where that was mentioned?

I'd very much like to read about it.

As for the rest of the junk, I just bought the 60$ Project Pheonix package. Not because I'm happy with the game where it is, but because I actually had a lot of fun the other night playing with my corp mates. I don't think I'll ever be happy with where the game is, simply because, like any other game, there's always going to be something wrong, and (unlike every other game), some of those may be glaring issues, but I still had lots of fun the other day.

Its just that I'd have more fun if those problems were fixed. I think that's where a lot of this complaining (note, I didn't say whining. Perhaps its just the threads I visit, but I tend to not see a lot of that. I see a lot of heartfelt suggestions) comes from. People wouldn't be here if they didn't think the game could be even more fun.

Edited by Orzorn, 26 July 2013 - 08:02 AM.