68 replies to this topic

[Ilithi Dragon]

This is a petition to increase the heat generation of the PPC and ERPPC back to TT stock, 10 and 15, respectively, and reduce the travel speed of the PPC projectile to 1200-1400, down from the current 2000.

Way back before HSR was even a notion most of us had, PGI buffed the PPC to make it a viable weapon, because with the latency issues at the time, PPCs were underpowered and just not effective weapons worth taking. These buffs included reducing the heat generation for PPCs and ERPPCs from 10 and 15 to 7 and 11, respectively, and increasing the travel speed of both to 2000, the same as the AC/2. This made it easier to hit targets at range through the latency, though latency was still an issue, especially for the fast mechs, and it also made firing the PPC less painful, so you weren't penalized so hard for firing, and especially for missing. This made the PPC roughly balanced as a long-range direct fire support weapon, maybe a little over-powered, but not enough to be a significant concern.

Then Host State Rewind was introduced, and the latency issues that made the PPC underpowered and in need of buffing went away, but the buffs remained.

This has resulted in what is popularly referred to as "PPCWarrior Online," and is a major contributor to the high-damage alpha build meta, because the PPC is a staple of the high-damage alpha build.

This proposal would remove the buffs to the PPC that are no longer needed, reducing the effectiveness of the PPC back to where it should be. With reduced travel speed, PPCs would still be able to reliably hit larger, slower targets, but would have a harder time hitting the faster-moving targets, which the PPC is supposed to be poor at hitting, and the increased heat generation would make the PPC more painful to fire, especially if it misses, so PPC boats will have to pick their shots more carefully, and will have a greater penalty for taking those shots.

The 6-PPC Stalker build might still work with the heat changes, but it will be very difficult to play, requiring players to be VERY picky about when they fire that alpha strike. Other PPC-heavy builds would be comparably nerfed. They would still be more than effective enough against the big, slow, heavy brawlers that they are supposed to counter, but not so effective that they are OP, and considerably less effective against the lighter, fast-moving mechs that are supposed to counter them.

[KingCobra]

First off I feel the ERPPC & PPC & GUASS are balanced about right on firepower the speeds of these weapons along with the AC2-AC5 should be slightly slower. But the real problem is the mechs lack of maneuverability. You are just a slow moving non turning target that cannot get to cover to AVOID ALL THE ALPHA AND WEAPONS FIRE. So even if they lowered the weapons speeds it would not help much until they make the mechs more maneuverable and able to evade some incoming weapons fire. In fact im dying more from huge LRM hits than the weapons you describe. The R-L turning rate is still so bad and slow it hard to even turn around fast enough to not get back shot 90% of the time in a battle now we get stuck on twigs and cant maneuver either it just SSUUCCKKSS. .

[SirSlaughter]

Just set the cooldown higher to 7-8 seconds

[Ilithi Dragon]

KingCobra, on 06 July 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

First off I feel the ERPPC & PPC & GUASS are balanced about right on firepower the speeds of these weapons along with the AC2-AC5 should be slightly slower. But the real problem is the mechs lack of maneuverability. You are just a slow moving non turning target that cannot get to cover to AVOID ALL THE ALPHA AND WEAPONS FIRE. So even if they lowered the weapons speeds it would not help much until they make the mechs more maneuverable and able to evade some incoming weapons fire. In fact im dying more from huge LRM hits than the weapons you describe. The R-L turning rate is still so bad and slow it hard to even turn around fast enough to not get back shot 90% of the time in a battle now we get stuck on twigs and cant maneuver either it just SSUUCCKKSS. .

What mechs are you driving that you're having trouble turning? The only mechs that I drive that turn slow are the big, slow, fat Assault mechs, which are supposed to turn slow. The lighter Heavies, the Mediums, and the Lights turn quick enough.


The PPC and the Gauss, and the LRMs, all fire support weapons, are supposed to be great at killing the big, slow, fat Heavy and Assault brawlers. They are the direct counters to those builds.

The problem is not that PPC and Gauss and LRMs are too effective at killing assaults and slow brawlers, the problem is that PPCs are too effective at killing fast mechs, and don't suffer enough of a penalty for missing. Gauss is fine, it hits hard, but moves relatively slowly, weighs a lot, and is a fragile bomb waiting to go off if it gets hit. LRMs are another matter, I don't usually have problems with them, but I haven't had a chance to look at them really closely since their latest buff.

SirSlaughter, on 06 July 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

Just set the cooldown higher to 7-8 seconds

This would penalize the mechs that use only one PPC, however. Leaving the weapon cycle time where it's at, but increasing the heat will leave builds that use one PPC and other weapons largely unaffected, but significantly impact the high-damage alpha builds that boat a lot of PPCs. It will also give players the critical decision of whether they should take this risk of firing at the target and overheating or not.

Edited by Ilithi Dragon, 06 July 2013 - 07:21 AM.

[SmurfOff]

Sorry, but PGI has gone too far off the mark to return to TT values. And they constantly state that this was their intention. See all the posts about the LRM issues.. Maybe the next group to do mechwarrior will realize this and start focusing in the right area first.

All of the silly weapons value diddling and nerfing / buffing has really made the game a shadow of battletech. Instead of focusing on things that they need to [netcode/hit detection], they are focusing on rules that have been around 20+ years. I had high hopes for this game, but realize now that my hope was misplaced, and now just play a giant stompy robot game instead of Battletech.

[Ilithi Dragon]

SmurfOff, on 06 July 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

Sorry, but PGI has gone too far off the mark to return to TT values. And they constantly state that this was their intention. See all the posts about the LRM issues.. Maybe the next group to do mechwarrior will realize this and start focusing in the right area first.

All of the silly weapons value diddling and nerfing / buffing has really made the game a shadow of battletech. Instead of focusing on things that they need to [netcode/hit detection], they are focusing on rules that have been around 20+ years. I had high hopes for this game, but realize now that my hope was misplaced, and now just play a giant stompy robot game instead of Battletech.

Soo.... Do you support reducing the PPC travel speed and returning the PPC heat generation values to stock TT, or not?

[Lugh]

I see another who failed basic math.

The PPC and the ER PPC in table top generate that heat in a 10 second turn. The PPC and The ERPPC in MWO fire once every 4 seconds, with values of 8 and 11 heat.

So for the 10 second turn they are at 16 and 22 heat respectively, and double the TT damage values.

[SmurfOff]

Ilithi Dragon, on 06 July 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Soo.... Do you support reducing the PPC travel speed and returning the PPC heat generation values to stock TT, or not?

Sure, if armor / lrms / srms / mg / etc all get reset to TT... Also, how about adding forward momentum to the JJ's? Or, actually any momentum. Forwards / Backwards / Sideways / Diagonal... Don't get me started on physical attacks and damage knockdowns.

So yeah, asking PPC's to go to TT values is only about 2% of the stuff that needs reset.

[Znail]

There is a lot of use of "supposed to be" here, that is just based on oppinion. It would be an a lot better thread if it was less based on retorics and more on facts.

[Av4tar]

Back to TT, remove screen shake from JJ.

TT rules are made for a TT game. MWO isnt TT game. PGI has to adapt and modified the rules.
If you want TT maybe you will be happier with MWT.

[Milt]

Lugh, on 06 July 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

I see another who failed basic math.

The PPC and the ER PPC in table top generate that heat in a 10 second turn. The PPC and The ERPPC in MWO fire once every 4 seconds, with values of 8 and 11 heat.

So for the 10 second turn they are at 16 and 22 heat respectively, and double the TT damage values.

but armor is also doubled. the problem is that armor and heat are 2x TT values but damage is 2.5x TT. looks like your math is a bit flawed.

Edited by Milt, 06 July 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[KingCobra]

Milt, on 06 July 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

but armor is also doubled. the problem is that armor and heat are 2x TT values but damage is 2.5x TT. looks like your math is a bit flawed.

To be honest I think PGI just doubled the armor numbers i tested the armor way back in closed beta and the damages from weapons now far overpower the armor amounts. So in truth i don't believe they actually doubled the armor amounts in actual game play just for looks in the mech lab.

[Celtic Warrior]

PPC are fine.

[20k]

I think this or convergence are probably the only actually viable solutions - ppc damage is pretty much fine so nerfing that would make them unusable with 1-2 on a mech, but an increase in heat wouldn't affect people taking 1-2 ppcs too much, but it would cripple 4+ boats

[MavRCK]

PPC / ERPPC - increase heat by 10%, change recycle time to be different than gauss ie. 4.25 second or 3.75 second.

Done.

Now fix SRMs so we have some variety.

[ronalex1]

it can be done but go back one year?.. ok it can be done too but then the community that use ppc will start complaining that they don't worth the weight 7 ton of trash bla bla bla.. the ppcs are fine now. But put 4-6 on a mech.. that other story. i miss the mw3 when this blow up your mech for good! (the good old days).



sorry for my english

[VagGR]

there are rumors that there is one guy out there that is playing without PPCs on his mechs at all..but i dont know thats probably just rumors...but just in case pls buff PPCs, they should do 15 dmg weight 5 tons and produce 4 heat with a colldown of 2.5.........

[SmurfOff]

ed3n1, on 06 July 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

Back to TT, remove screen shake from JJ.

TT rules are made for a TT game. MWO isnt TT game. PGI has to adapt and modified the rules.
If you want TT maybe you will be happier with MWT.

My point is, there are more TT rules that need implemented

[kesuga7]

if this is a petition shouldn't you have a poll then?

otherwise this is just a discussion thread (no offence to anyone tho )

[Ilithi Dragon]

kesuga7, on 07 July 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

if this is a petition shouldn't you have a poll then?

otherwise this is just a discussion thread (no offence to anyone tho )

I wanted to make it a poll, but I couldn't find the add a poll button...