103 replies to this topic

[XX Sulla XX]

Lets not bring it back. Game works fine without it. It only adds to the grind.

[Roland]

Tombstoner, on 24 July 2013 - 05:30 AM, said:

R&R is not fun. it prevents me from using the mechs i like to play. if it happens to be an assault then so be it.
If this game some day supports off line game play with a story driven campaign. Then yes i would want R&R to add debth, more BT realism. then i'd be all for it.

it would never promote a larger range of mech types used but needlessly frustrate players into leaving.

Just to play devil's advocate here, I'm gonna ask the question...
If you are terrible at playing an assault mech, and continually a liability to your team by wasting 100 tons on a mech that does 35 damage before dying, then maybe it shouldn't matter that you want to play that mech.

If you join the Navy, they don't put you in an F-18 on day one, even if you want to be a fighter pilot.

Having poor players play in cheap mechs isn't perhaps the worst thing in the world.

[3rdworld]

Roland, on 24 July 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

Just to play devil's advocate here, I'm gonna ask the question...
If you are terrible at playing an assault mech, and continually a liability to your team by wasting 100 tons on a mech that does 35 damage before dying, then maybe it shouldn't matter that you want to play that mech.

If you join the Navy, they don't put you in an F-18 on day one, even if you want to be a fighter pilot.

Having poor players play in cheap mechs isn't perhaps the worst thing in the world.

Other than it further increase the advantage of the better players.

[Roland]

3rdworld, on 24 July 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

Other than it further increase the advantage of the better players.

Yeah, I understand the issue.

But at the same time, there are games where you see some terribad pilot driving an atlas and failing to score his tonnage, and the reality is that his being in an assault mech didn't help him or his team out. He ended up just taking up an assault mech's slot, that could have been otherwise occupied by a better player who could have better used that tonnage to the team's advantage.

Of course, since the matchmaking it all borked anyway, it's perhaps less of an issue in that regard, since the system seems to make almost random matches of skill and mech tonnage.

[Tombstoner]

Roland, on 24 July 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

Yeah, I understand the issue.

But at the same time, there are games where you see some terribad pilot driving an atlas and failing to score his tonnage, and the reality is that his being in an assault mech didn't help him or his team out. He ended up just taking up an assault mech's slot, that could have been otherwise occupied by a better player who could have better used that tonnage to the team's advantage.

Of course, since the matchmaking it all borked anyway, it's perhaps less of an issue in that regard, since the system seems to make almost random matches of skill and mech tonnage.

i can agree that less skilled players in 100 tone mechs are liabilities. This is more the fault of the progression system. trials till 25 matches then given a gift of 25mill now you stuck in your choice for a long time as you continue to learn. in BT you dont give an atlas to a green pilot unless your connected politicly. the game simplt dosnt have the level of debth yet taht can simulate battle field salvage or rank progretion.

your green guess what her's your commando..... play x matches now mediums open then heaves and assaults. you learn each class as you play. R&R as a means of preventing them from doing what they want vs incorporating some sort of progression /leveling sysem we are all acquainted with would be far better.

nice devils advocate position it shifted my thinking a bit.

MM can only do so much with what it has available in the que.

[Purlana]

Roland, on 24 July 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

Just to play devil's advocate here, I'm gonna ask the question...
If you are terrible at playing an assault mech, and continually a liability to your team by wasting 100 tons on a mech that does 35 damage before dying, then maybe it shouldn't matter that you want to play that mech.

If you join the Navy, they don't put you in an F-18 on day one, even if you want to be a fighter pilot.

Having poor players play in cheap mechs isn't perhaps the worst thing in the world.

Well new players do start out in trial mechs. That's as cheap as it gets. A better idea would be to get ride of the horrible mech leveling system and replace it with a pilot leveling system. As you win games you unlock more mechs, and are matched up with people who played a similar amount of matches.

Edited by Purlana, 24 July 2013 - 08:44 AM.

[Telemetry]

Seems some of the posters to this thread believe that there needs to be an equal playing field no matter how much effort/time is put into learning how to get better. I see nothing wrong with awarding good, tactical play and penalizing reckless and bad play via xp/c-bills and R&R.

Those posters who are complaining about the "grind". Are you serious? This game currently has absolutely NO GRIND! None! It's almost a simple arcade type game, which is not in the spirit of Battletech/Mechwarrior.

I am advocating a system that is in the spirit of the game universe that FASA created so many years ago.

There is nothing wrong with having to earn something so that you appreciate it more. It's a lot like real life in that way. Life isn't fair and we can't change the rules, we adapt and work hard if we want to succeed, or we don't.

Just food for thought.

[DoktorVivi]

Itkovian, on 24 July 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

Personally I think we should have repair/rearm as part of Community Warfare, alongside a more developed logistics feature for entire units (sort of late-phase CW). Things like tracking ammo supplies, spare parts, and so on. As part of a full campaign feature that would be awesome.

THIS. So much this. I want to be able to cut off the supplies of an important planet by blockading it / disrupting its supply lines so the defenders have to be more careful with their ammo / more worried about dying and the rest of their faction has to try and retake those supply lines while we try to take the planet.

It wouldn't even have to bring back R&R completely (because it just penalized people who didn't win even more than they already were by not winning). Just say if ammo supply is short, everybody starts the match with less ammo, less armor, etc., depending on how much supply is left (so it starts out high, or 100%, then slowly starts dropping).

They'd probably need some sort of advantage (like always having defense structures on every map) to offset that and keep from being steamrolled once lines are cut, and to give them some leeway if their side has trouble retaking supply lines.

Sadly, I don't know if we'll ever be able to deal with supply lines and stuff like that, because they said CW will be more about managing an entire 'front,' so I doubt it will be as dynamic as I'd like.

Edited by DoktorVivi, 24 July 2013 - 10:05 AM.

[Purlana]

R&R hurt brawlers more then it hurt energy boats back in beta because of ammo costs. Do you really want to see more PPCs?

Edited by Purlana, 24 July 2013 - 10:08 AM.

[Telemetry]

If you read my original post, PPCs will be balanced with huge repair costs rather than rearm costs due to the complexity of the weapon.

[soarra]

Telemetry, on 24 July 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

With all the complaints about everyone running assaults and heavies and all the complaints about matchmaking missmatches, boating, etc. It occurred to me that bringing back balance in part means bringing back consequences.

By consequences, I mean Expenses. Here is a quick list of expenses and why it might help:

- Initial cost of dropping by tonnage: This will reflect the space used in a drop ship, fuel costs, etc. It also serves as a balance mechanism to make players have to decide what mech makes sense based on their financial situation. Mecwarriors have to worry about the bottom line. Certain drops for factions can reduce the costs.

- Repair costs: We used to have this. It simply costs more to repair an expensive mech with more expensive armor, weapons, structure. Again, this would make pilots decide whether it makes sense to alwasy drop that D-DC or Stalker boat. Having a relatively high repair bill for large beam weapons would limit boating.

- Rearm costs: Another item we used to have. Missles and Ballistics were balanced in previous games by the costs or rearming them. Bringing this back will reduce the AC/Missile boating.


So, applying something like this would have a good effect by balancing how many times someone could drop assault mechs and actually make money. If players could make more money with lighter mechs, it would cause the player base to think more about what to drop.

Also, there needs to be more use for currency in game to balance the economy. The drop costs are part of that equation. Once CW comes in, maybe there are costs for fuel to get to a certain system. Costs for intel on certain worlds, etc.

This is all just food for thought on how to balance the game without resorting to just tuning weapon damage and heat.

R&R will do nothing to hurt the players who have hundreds or milions cbills , while the new players suffer

[Telemetry]

soarra, on 24 July 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

R&R will do nothing to hurt the players who have hundreds or milions cbills , while the new players suffer

Explain. In what ways will suffering occur? And, how many players have hundreds of millions of c-bills laying around? I bet very few so it's a non-issue. And....didn't they earn them? What's wrong with having earned an advantage? Nothing!

Edited by Telemetry, 24 July 2013 - 10:52 AM.

[Warge]

CapperDeluxe, on 24 July 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

The problem with R&R is that is didn't actually hurt good players who won their matches, but really hurt those who lose a lot.

1) Lose? K/D ratio or W/L ratio? Two big differences.
2) Even R&R 1% of total Mech's price don't hurt alot. And prices for ammo could be lower.
3) Have no c-bills? Gring in trial Mech (of course trials should be better balanced).

CapperDeluxe, on 24 July 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

If you're only scraping by making 40-60K per lost match and then get dinged for most of that, then the grind would be even worse than it already is.

So don't take Assault Mech, use Medum one. In R&R times I played Commando Mechs. Even in worst cases it was profitable.

[Warge]

James The Fox Dixon, on 24 July 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

We did it before and ammo based builds got screwed over big time.

What prevented developers to reduce the ammo prices - still don't understand.

[Koniving]

We had a discussion about this recently, more on what the game was like "back then." But watching this vid is by no means necessary.

Should be a good bit there.

But yes, in response to repair and rearm... There was a solution that some of us came up with some time ago.

Here's the idea we had, with a bit of fluff/lore reasoning behind it even.

New Player, Lone Wolves, Faction Members.

As a lone wolf volunteering for the army or as a member of a faction, the military you are serving covers x amount of your repair and rearm (if not the entire thing) up until the upgrades. For example destroyed double heatsinks, endo steel, xl engine, etc. you'd have to repair yourself (which by themselves isn't much but it's enough to notice). Your typical soldier is paid well enough to fight but largely supported by his or her faction. They supply up to 4 tons of any kind of ammo, the maintenance, the replacements all free of charge to you. But most of the army's mechs are not upgraded so extensively, and so if you want your repair and rearm to be free... standard engine, standard heatsinks, no endo, no more than 4 tons of ammunition for any particular weapon (typical canon for most mechs is 1 to 2 tons per weapon). Since Ferro is supposed to be significantly cheaper than Endo and was during R&R, it'd be more practical as a low cost way to get a few extra tons.

So as long as you don't run upgrades or more than 4 tons of ammo for each weapon type, you'll never have a repair or rearm bill.

Still, you're entitled to nothing if you suicide or fail to contribute to the fight in some way. Zero income, zero repairs, etc., as punishment for botting. (Though in the case of disconnects, any damage delivered to your mech is not charged to you either that way you gain nothing but you lose nothing ultimately defeating the purpose of just existing in a match).

Summarized:

• Faction Members / Lone Wolves receive the current income as we all do now, maybe slightly buffed with more rewards for role-based gameplay.
  
• Repair and rearm for faction members and lone wolves are virtually free unless covered in the following.
  
• Repairs associated with upgraded mechs -- DHS, Endo, Ferro, Artemis, XL -- cost a fraction of the upgrade price. (Obviously Endo would thusly cost more than Ferro in regards to repairs). (XL is not cheap to repair). Without upgrades, there are no repair/replacement costs.
  
• ​Ammunition is free for the first 4 tons of each weapon type per match. Any ammunition beyond the first 4 tons of each weapon type costs a percentage of the original ammo cost.

-----

But what about those wanting a hardcore experience or Mercs?

Mercenary Corporations / Clanners.

Meanwhile for those wanting a hardcore mode as PGI said they were considering, join a mercenary corporation. Mercs are always paid better than your average grunts. Descriptions from Bryan Ekman implied that the more planets your merc group holds, the more income you receive. We need a way to sink that income. How shall we do that? Simple. When have you ever known a mercenary company to take responsibility for the repairs and ammo of your machine as an employee of theirs? 100% of it comes directly out of your pay. After all you're receiving a lot more pay than the average soldier, you're rich and you can handle your expenses. Mercs who want to save up considerable amounts of cash will probably run cheaper builds.

So:

• Mercenaries receive considerably more income per match and per reward.
  
• This income is sunken at 50 to 100% repair and rearm cost versus original "resell" value of each item.
  
• No freebies.
  
• Larger merc groups with more territory can clearly afford to push out better mechs, but their financial losses will be devastating upon a crippling defeat versus that of a smaller group who has not funnelled everything into the top of the line technology. The risk of this will likely keep their builds hushed down a bit in terms of expense.
  
• If the unlikely case of high debt occurs, the Merc Corps player could go lone wolf with regular factions and regular pay for financial support to earn his or her way out of debt on the factions' wallet until confident enough to return to his higher paying, higher risk duties with his or her merc corp.

---

Note: So far as I could tell if the Clans are playable, they will be considered along the same lines of Merc Corps.

---------------

A note about "drowning in debt during R&R."

Personally I had a Commando 2D before the ECM days. Without premium it made up to 3,000,000 cbills per match, and had a repair and rearm bill when destroyed of 16,000 to 28,000 cbills. It had 90 kph reverse running speed (faster than most forward running speeds at the time) and 2 LRM-5 racks. Because scouting paid really well at the time, I went ahead of the pack along the far edges of the map and picked out a target that no one else could see. I received 2,500 cbills every time someone fired LRMs, for every person who fired LRMs, at intervals of 2 seconds apart (so I'd get another 2,500 from each person when they fired LRMs 2 seconds later). Now that's income! With it, I could switch over to my Atlas and afford to do poorly.

Edited by Koniving, 24 July 2013 - 01:37 PM.

[Warge]

CygnusX7, on 24 July 2013 - 06:16 AM, said:

and from a positive pov it made me focus more on staying alive.

Amen, bro..

[Ph30nix]

you do realize there are players in this game with 100's of millions of cbills saved up right? It would take a very very long time to stop seeing the current game we have now if R&R was reintroduced.

Also as said by multiple people R&R in its previous form WOULD NOT WORK!!!! Actually for the average player R&R in any form would just create more of a grind to scare people away.

The only way you can implement a R&R that wouldn't hurt the average player is one where your mech is not useable after a match for X amount of time dependent on the damage it took.

Minimal damage 5 minutes down time
heavy damage 10 minutes down time
destroyed 15 minutes down time

but if you want to spend Cbills you can bypass this time frame in some fashion, (lower the time, remove completely etc etc)

hmmm actually i regret saying this because i can forsee PGI implementing this but the only way you can skip it is by paying 100 MC each time.....

[Ph30nix]

Koniving, on 24 July 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

Personally I had a Commando 2D before the ECM days. Without premium it made 3,000,000 cbills per match, and had a repair and rearm bill when destroyed of 16,000 to 28,000 cbills. It had 90 kph reverse running speed (faster than most forward running speeds at the time) and 2 LRM-5 racks. Because scouting paid really well at the time, I went ahead of the pack along the far edges of the map and picked out a target that no one else could see. I received 2,500 cbills every time someone fired LRMs, for every person who fired LRMs, at intervals of 2 seconds apart (so I'd get another 2,500 from each person when they fired LRMs 2 seconds later). Now that's income! With it, I could switch over to my Atlas and afford to do poorly.

whoa WTF were the income #'s back when R&R was around?

if im making 3mil bills per match and mechs are at their current costs id have zero problem keeping my mechs up and running and supplied......

im thinking you put an extra zero in there?

[Warge]

XX Sulla XX, on 24 July 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

Game works fine without it. It only adds to the grind.

As if now there is no grind.

[Pendraco]

I would love to see it return, while I will admit what they had in place was far from ideal - It's not to hard to imagine it tweaked, and expanded into a deep meaningful layer of the game. With that said, I think some form of drop wieght limitation would be much easier to immplement for controlling the ammount of assaults / heavies currently on the field.