Jump to content

Slashdot: What Is This I Don't Even


146 replies to this topic

#121 ssm

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Liquid Metal
  • Liquid Metal
  • 574 posts
  • LocationPoland

Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:49 AM

View PostSam Slade, on 02 September 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:


Er... no it doesn't. Most 'Ponzi' fraud cases come out of a broker who couldn't keep up with their promises. Where on earth did you get the idea that fraud requires premeditation; that would make the charge criminal conspiracy, something I highly doubt was the intention of the Devs.
(...)

Not premeditation - intent. 'Ponzi' fraud cases don't come out of a broker who couldn't keep up with their promises (every investment has a certain risk to it), but from broker who knew (or could reasonably predict) that he won't be able to keep up with them, but made them regardless.
Note - thats why most of the people responsible for latest economic crisis could't be charged with fraud (up to the point, at least)

Criminal conspiracy would be entirely different matter, and to consider it we would have to determine if act we are judging meets the legal/statutory criteria of crime- the charges aren't criminal conspiracy, but criminal conspiracy to commit xxx.

Edited by ssm, 03 September 2013 - 01:55 AM.


#122 RedThirteen

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Mercenary
  • Mercenary
  • 159 posts
  • LocationRockets

Posted 03 September 2013 - 02:12 AM

View Postmekabuser, on 02 September 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:


The arrival of those who leg constantly.



..Really. Limiting incoming damage by restricting opponent's movement is dishonorable? Strange conceptions like that are what keep prospective players at "Look mum, crazy person!" distance.

Hm. Among most of my newfound battle buddies I'm the only one who goes after legs.

For with them I shall build a throne fit for a Centurion.

#123 RedDragon

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,942 posts
  • LocationKurpfalz, Germany

Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:03 AM

View Postssm, on 02 September 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

Regarding fraud, "intentional" means (roughly) that they knew that they are going to brak promise at the time of making it. (at the time of act); that they actually intended to, i.e. put 3PV into game while telling sb that they won't.

*Potential "fraud" case fails on a lot of levels, I've just isolated one of them (intention)

So like... if I sold you a subscription for the magazine "Hunter's Weekly", and after some weeks I see that many more people read about knitting than hunting, I start sending you "Knitting with Passion" from now on. That is no fraud for you? And no reason to want your money back? After all, when I sold you the subscription, I was in the perfect faith that hunting would stay hip for a while and I had no idea I would be "forced" to switch to knitting later on...

#124 Scandinavian Jawbreaker

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 1,251 posts
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationFinland

Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:25 AM

Oh my god...

#125 ssm

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Liquid Metal
  • Liquid Metal
  • 574 posts
  • LocationPoland

Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:32 AM

View PostRedDragon, on 03 September 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:

So like... if I sold you a subscription for the magazine "Hunter's Weekly", and after some weeks I see that many more people read about knitting than hunting, I start sending you "Knitting with Passion" from now on. That is no fraud for you? And no reason to want your money back? After all, when I sold you the subscription, I was in the perfect faith that hunting would stay hip for a while and I had no idea I would be "forced" to switch to knitting later on...

Actually, it's not a fraud, it's simple breach of contract. In this situation, I can fill (and most probably win) civil lawsuit against you. Court will either order you to fill your obligation (send me magazines as contract between us stated) or give me back my money. An top of that I could get some compensation.

And that's it.

Criminal law (fraud etc.) and civil law (contracts, obligations etc.) are different parts of legal system - sometimes they overlap, but not in this case.

Edited by ssm, 03 September 2013 - 03:39 AM.


#126 RedDragon

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,942 posts
  • LocationKurpfalz, Germany

Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:43 AM

View Postssm, on 03 September 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

Actually, it's not a fraud, it's simple breach of contract. In this situation, I can fill (and most probably win) civil lawsuit against you. Court will either order you to fill your obligation (send me magazines as contract between us stated) or give me back my money. An top of that I could get some compensation.

And that's it.

Criminal law (fraud etc.) and civil law (contracts, obligations etc.) are different parts of legal system - sometimes they overlap, but not in this case.

Well, although I wouldn't rule out a fraud on PGI's side (you'd have to investigate when they started to work on 3PV), I can agree with you on this. No matter what, it's perfectly legal to demand your money back, because PGI doesn't deliver the product advertised and sold some time ago.

#127 Burakumin1979

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Survivor
  • 100 posts

Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:44 AM

View PostSuper Mono, on 01 September 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:


You must be really enjoying it if you use words like "weather" to describe how you take to it.

And not everyone is fine with being blatantly lied to. If you can't understand why people are so upset over this then you have a serious lack of either memory or empathy.


Or we're older than 12, have real lives, and realize that this is a game...in beta...that no one is forcing us to play.

Please stop pretending any of this is a bigger issue than it is.

#128 Sam Slade

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 1,370 posts
  • LocationMega city 1

Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:55 AM

View Postssm, on 03 September 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

Actually, it's not a fraud, it's simple breach of contractCriminal law (fraud etc.) and civil law (contracts, obligations etc.) are different parts of legal system - sometimes they overlap, but not in this case.
So, it's misrepresentation or 'misleading and deceptive conduct' that you're looking for and in Canada it can be addressed in both civil and criminal court(Common Law sytem... not US litigationism)

#129 ssm

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Liquid Metal
  • Liquid Metal
  • 574 posts
  • LocationPoland

Posted 03 September 2013 - 04:16 AM

View PostSam Slade, on 03 September 2013 - 03:55 AM, said:

So, it's misrepresentation or 'misleading and deceptive conduct' that you're looking for and in Canada it can be addressed in both civil and criminal court(Common Law sytem... not US litigationism)

Yes, it can be adressed, question is if such a case could stand on criminal (or even if prosecutor could bother with it). I don't have working knowledge of Canadian legal system, but basic "building blocks" that differentiate crime from other acts are remarkably similar across civilised world (maybe except USA, their system is somewhat wonky) - and so is definition of fraud.

Remember that in case of "PGI vs. Angry Hardcore-Mechsim Founder" the term 'misleading and deceptive conduct' would refer not to PGI's "putting 3PV into a game", but "promising not to put it, while at the same time knowing that it will be put into a game" (That's what words misleading and deception actually mean - you withold some essential information, with intend to make profit out of sb who otherwise wouldn't make certain decision in regard of parting with his money)

Edited by ssm, 03 September 2013 - 04:19 AM.


#130 Aeolus Drift

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 138 posts
  • LocationStillwater, OK

Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:40 AM

View PostColonel Pada Vinson, on 02 September 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:


yeah, because telling people to avoid this game will..save it.

lets be real here. call yourselves #killmwo and maybe you guys will gain more following.


Before my response, I would just like to put on record that I'm not a member of #saveMWO. there are points I agree with them on, there are a few that I disagree with them. However having listen to their townhall meetings, I can say that they do have a very passionate interest in helping MWO. In fact many of its most influential figures have been consistently reminding their members about the importance of maintaining positive critical feedback, in order to gain the trust of PGI. From my perspective, PGI's lack of articulation for their long term vision in the past year and the apparent unwillingness to communicate their plans to the community through any medium except Command posts, Announcements, NGNG, and the occasional twitter posts, has led many of them to become increasingly disillusioned and frustrated.

I hear you, telling people to with hold their money from PGI as a bargaining chip does seem petulant and unnecessary, and rather counter productive for a movement to "save" a game, for any segment of the community. However given that all other attempts to gain communication has seemingly failed to gain PGI's response - or attention for that matter - there are few options they have left to support that might get the developers' to turn their heads around.

#131 Sam Slade

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 1,370 posts
  • LocationMega city 1

Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:26 AM

View Postssm, on 03 September 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

Yes, it can be adressed, question is if such a case could stand .

highly doubtful it would stand

View Postssm, on 03 September 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

Remember that in case of "PGI vs. Angry Hardcore-Mechsim Founder" the term 'misleading and deceptive conduct' would refer not to PGI's "putting 3PV into a game", but "promising not to put it, while at the same time knowing that it will be put into a game" (That's what words misleading and deception actually mean - you withold some essential information, with intend to make profit out of sb who otherwise wouldn't make certain decision in regard of parting with his money)


http://canlii.ca/en/...c-2-part-3.html

Actually the statute is very broad. Bear in mind these statutes are written to cover 'crimes of omissionl' as well as willful deception.

#132 ZonbiBadger

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 104 posts
  • LocationDenver, CO

Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:42 AM

View PostEnsaine, on 02 September 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:


Umm, sorry dude. YOU weren't around at the beginning. If so, where is your Founder tag......

Sorry, you arrived at Open Beta like most people.

We pumped $5 million into this game.


Sorry to break it to ya dude but I was in closed beta and I wasn't a founder.

#133 Super Mono

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 484 posts

Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:43 AM

View PostBurakumin1979, on 03 September 2013 - 03:44 AM, said:


Or we're older than 12, have real lives, and realize that this is a game...in beta...that no one is forcing us to play.

Please stop pretending any of this is a bigger issue than it is.


Please stop pretending you're saying anything of value.

And less than two weeks remaining on that beta shield, better enjoy it.

#134 ssm

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Liquid Metal
  • Liquid Metal
  • 574 posts
  • LocationPoland

Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:02 AM

View PostSam Slade, on 03 September 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

http://canlii.ca/en/...c-2-part-3.html
Actually the statute is very broad. Bear in mind these statutes are written to cover 'crimes of omissionl' as well as willful deception.

Agreed - but remember that this statute, like most consumer protection ones, covers only civil responsibility for those acts, with no relation to actual criminal law. I didn't comment on whether civil lawsuit against PGI for "broken promises" would be valid (in regard to consumer protection law or, in more broad term, civil law as whole), just that those "broken promises" don't meet statutory/legal criteria of fraud and related crimes.

Edited by ssm, 03 September 2013 - 07:15 AM.


#135 Aerokii

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 283 posts
  • LocationStrapped into a walking Nuke Reactor

Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:28 AM

Hmm... poorly worded summary that barely grazes the actual truth in some cases and completely misses it by a wide margin in others, in addition to seemingly contradicting itself. It seems to improve slightly by the end, where it starts discussing actual issues, but only in generalized terms that don't point out the actual problem.

Normally this wouldn't be an issue, since people would read the article and know what was going on- but this is Slashdot, and that... just doesn't happen (it's sort of a running joke there.) As such this whole thing just comes off as a highly misleading smear piece, which ends up being one of the major points of discussion within the Slashdot post itself. I'm sort of sad that I missed it when it was first posted, but I don't read /. on weekends.

Don't take this as me saying that MWO is without issues- I don't like 3PV, the game still needs a lot of tuning, and communication between devs and community has been lackluster/sometimes downright horrid, but the /. summary is still quite poor.

#136 Chronojam

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,185 posts

Posted 04 September 2013 - 03:25 PM

View PostZonbiBadger, on 03 September 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

Sorry to break it to ya dude but I was in closed beta and I wasn't a founder.
This is a great reply to "We pumped $5 million into this game" because it completely misses the point and gives me something to quote.

#137 PauperAllianceRepresentative

    Clone

  • 4 posts

Posted 05 September 2013 - 07:36 AM

On Slashdot. The thing about an annunciation of a truth is that you can not kill it, it has a tendency to spread. Expect us.

#138 Aerokii

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 283 posts
  • LocationStrapped into a walking Nuke Reactor

Posted 05 September 2013 - 07:40 AM

View PostPauperAllianceRepresentative, on 05 September 2013 - 07:36 AM, said:

On Slashdot. The thing about an annunciation of a truth is that you can not kill it, it has a tendency to spread. Expect us.


That whole annunciation of truth thing will be great, when you announce actual truths, which aren't really present in that /. summary.

EDIT: Oh, this guy's already banned. Huh. People should probably at least try to proxy if they're going to use alt accounts to circumvent bans on their main.

Edited by Aerokii, 05 September 2013 - 07:43 AM.


#139 Jestun

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,270 posts

Posted 05 September 2013 - 08:07 AM

View PostAerokii, on 05 September 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:


That whole annunciation of truth thing will be great, when you announce actual truths, which aren't really present in that /. summary.

EDIT: Oh, this guy's already banned. Huh. People should probably at least try to proxy if they're going to use alt accounts to circumvent bans on their main.


Perhaps you could highlight an actual lie rather than making vague references?

#140 Aerokii

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 283 posts
  • LocationStrapped into a walking Nuke Reactor

Posted 05 September 2013 - 08:36 AM

View PostJestun, on 05 September 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:


Perhaps you could highlight an actual lie rather than making vague references?


Gladly.

Quote


"The latest iteration of Mechwarrior was crowdfunded (without Kickstarter) as a free-to-play first-person mech simulator. However, despite promises to the founders, the game has been shifted to a third-person arcade shooter and now the community is rioting. This followed a series of other unpopular decisions; the developers decided to sell an item for real money that had a significant impact on gameplay, crossing the line separating cosmetic/convenience items and 'pay-to-win.' Then they added a confusing game mechanic to limit its use, which had the unfortunate side effect of making some strategies completely useless. From the article: 'PGI’s community practices showcase a fundamental misunderstanding of both freemium development and community management. The developer has never had to deal with such a large player base before, and it has never had to deal with the strains of continuous development before. Rather, PGI seems to be handling Mechwarrior Online in much the same way they might a AAA game: by keeping quiet and only discussing its work in vague terms. ...Mechwarrior Online’s road to launch is a cautionary consumer tale, fraught with anger and betrayal. It shows how a company can take a fan base dedicated to an old IP and completely alienate it through lack of communication, unpopular features, and oathbreaking. It shows how players need to be cautious of supporting a project based solely on the IP backing it.'"


So... let's take these on one at a time.

crowdfunded: This one in particular is interesting. Those who bought into Founders got exactly what they paid for- closed beta access, premium time, MC, and mechs, depending on their tier. What was promised was delivered (except for the name in the credits thing, that's unreleased so far.) The "crowdfunded" word's been tossed around a few times by PGI and outside sources, but from my recollection a good deal of money taken from that went to IGP's other projects, and IGP themselves are the ones who funded the game. We're just assisting in keeping it alive. I'll admit that this point is contentious, but it's my view on it- the point is, it's not really "fact" worthy.

Third person arcade shooter: MechAssault was a third person arcade shooter. MWO is a primarily first person game with a gimped and buggy 3PV mode that handles like the other Mechwarrior games so far. My play style has not changed much since I started back in closed beta, and I haven't so much as touched the "arcade shooter" mechanics, nor have I seen others use them much. In fact, those aspects are all completely optional- throttle decay, 3PV, arm lock... you can turn all of it off and play as if it weren't even there.

sell an item for real money that had a significant impact on gameplay/pay-to-win: I'll address both of these at the same time, if you don't mind. There are certain things in the game you can only get with real money- and none of them will make you a better pilot. In fact, you can get consumables just as useful as the MC ones through C-bills and experience points. Most of them aren't all that useful in the first place, but the poster was referring to the coolant flush. In its limited state, it's useful but hardly game changing, and anyone can access its more potent form. For other things you can buy, like Mechs themselves, sure, you can get hero and champion mechs- that aren't stronger than the regular version, they just boost your end-of-match rewards and come in pretty colors. As someone who's paid a fair bit, I don't do a whole lot of winning... since this game is still about skill.

keeping quiet and only discussing its work in vague terms: I'll admit PGI needs to work on its communication, but historically they've been pretty good about telling us their plan and direction for the game. The problem most people take is that the plan can change without notice sometimes. Once again you could argue this one way or another, but just because they don't hand us their planned XML sheet every time they think about changing a number doesn't mean they're not communicating their intentions. Please see the most recent posts by the team and Ask The Developers for more information.

In addition, check out the slashdot comments themselves. There's some interesting discussion there.

Edited by Aerokii, 05 September 2013 - 08:37 AM.






1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users