130 replies to this topic

[ryoma]

http://www.nogutsnog...opic,930.0.html

Based on the views expressed on third person view and balance it's become obvious that the people balancing this game don't actually play at a high level. To put it in other words PGI is balancing the game around Bronze 5 queue metagame.

They don't understand the strength in scouting using 3PV.

This probably also extends to dumb weapon balance changes.

Video Highlights 3PV being used as intended. To assist sniping builds and reduce the need for scouting.

Edited by ryoma, 06 September 2013 - 01:04 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Maybe it was their position at the time?

[ryoma]

When you balance around a metagame used by low kill players it creates large waves and ripples in higher level play where intricacies can be exploited.

This explains the see saw effect we've seen a million times
PGI intorduces a change
things are ok for a bit
high level players find a way to break it
things stop being ok as this knowledge trickles down.

The problem isn't that the devs are bad at the game really, but that they don't use good enough players to assist them in balance. Videos like in my OP post surfaced within days of 3PV implementation and show one of the aspects of 3PV that is downright OP in the hands of someone who isn't terrible at this game. If these people were involved in testing then such bad balance changes wouldn't hit servers so often.

Look forward to UAC/5.

[boomshekah]

What??? Are you serious?? That´s shocking news! You mean PGI is not developing this game around a handful of nerds who are ready to abuse every bug, every little unbalance that might exist to get an advantage, but are instead trying to open up the game and make it accessible to a much broader group of players?? What a stupid business decision!

[New Day]

boomshekah, on 06 September 2013 - 02:14 AM, said:

What??? Are you serious?? That´s shocking news! You mean PGI is not developing this game around a handful of nerds who are ready to abuse every bug, every little unbalance that might exist to get an advantage, but are instead trying to open up the game and make it accessible to a much broader group of players?? What a stupid business decision!

Balancing for 'those' players, means balancing for everyone.

[LegoPirate]

theyve already said theyre going to take a look at UACs, and they even had a nice fancy poll about making 12's (i.e. the only mode us tryhard nerds really care about) 1pv only, which we assume will be implemented at some point.

[Earl White]

Good, I'd rather them balance around lower skill players, that way more people benefit than balanced for the minority of higher skilled players. Yes you could say it sends "large waves and ripples" that can be exploited by higher level players, but higher level players will always exploit everything and anything, and usually have more to exploit if it is balanced specifically for them rather than the majority populace.

If you can balance to help low skill players, the gap is made smaller between them and "the elite" even though both parties benefit from the changes.

If you balance around "the elite" only, then low skill players will not benefit but only those who are in the top echelons can.

Edited by Earl White, 06 September 2013 - 02:39 AM.

[Jam the Bam]

Considering there are more low skill players than elite players, does it not make more sense to balance around them?

There are ALWAYS going to be weapons that give a slight advantage and these weapons are always going to be exploited to their full advantage by good players (not a bad thing, that's just part of what makes them good), its better in a game like this to simply make the game fun and playable for all.

[Vila deVere]

Earl White, on 06 September 2013 - 02:37 AM, said:

Good, I'd rather them balance around lower skill players, that way more people benefit than balanced for the minority of higher skilled players. Yes you could say it sends "large waves and ripples" that can be exploited by higher level players, but higher level players will always exploit everything and anything, and usually have more to exploit if it is balanced specifically for them rather than the majority populace.

If you can balance to help low skill players, the gap is made smaller between them and "the elite" even though both parties benefit from the changes.

If you balance around "the elite" only, then low skill players will not benefit but only those who are in the top echelons can.

This post is why this game is turning into Mech Assault Online.

[Vassago Rain]

Earl White, on 06 September 2013 - 02:37 AM, said:

Good, I'd rather them balance around lower skill players, that way more people benefit than balanced for the minority of higher skilled players. Yes you could say it sends "large waves and ripples" that can be exploited by higher level players, but higher level players will always exploit everything and anything, and usually have more to exploit if it is balanced specifically for them rather than the majority populace.

If you can balance to help low skill players, the gap is made smaller between them and "the elite" even though both parties benefit from the changes.

If you balance around "the elite" only, then low skill players will not benefit but only those who are in the top echelons can.

If you balance around low-skill people, you'll please no one. If it's breakable, I will break it, and then the low skill players find out from their friends that there's a way to break it.

You balance around the top, or you get poptart metagames that poison it for everybody.

[Vila deVere]

Jammerben87, on 06 September 2013 - 03:20 AM, said:

Considering there are more low skill players than elite players, does it not make more sense to balance around them?

There are ALWAYS going to be weapons that give a slight advantage and these weapons are always going to be exploited to their full advantage by good players (not a bad thing, that's just part of what makes them good), its better in a game like this to simply make the game fun and playable for all.

No.... You miss the point entirely. The point is that by "balancing" around low skill players, the game actually becomes more unbalanced in that high skill players are able to exploit characteristics that low skill players can't or won't.

By following this model, PGI will soon have a large rotating population of noobs and small set of veterans who are willing to use such exploits to prey upon them.

The rest of us will have moved on to games that are actually well-designed.

Edited by Vila deVere, 06 September 2013 - 03:36 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Jammerben87, on 06 September 2013 - 03:20 AM, said:

Considering there are more low skill players than elite players, does it not make more sense to balance around them?

There are ALWAYS going to be weapons that give a slight advantage and these weapons are always going to be exploited to their full advantage by good players (not a bad thing, that's just part of what makes them good), its better in a game like this to simply make the game fun and playable for all.

No, because they don't know what they're doing, while I do, and I'll figure it out, and farm them hard due to my natural advantage of 'being good.' Then their peers find out, and you get a bad game.

You always balance for the top. You take into account all the ways your mechanics can be exploited, so the game is pleasant for everybody. Having a competitive, balanced game is good for everybody involved. Having a broken game is good for nobody involved.

[tenderloving]

Earl White, on 06 September 2013 - 02:37 AM, said:

Good, I'd rather them balance around lower skill players, that way more people benefit than balanced for the minority of higher skilled players. Yes you could say it sends "large waves and ripples" that can be exploited by higher level players, but higher level players will always exploit everything and anything, and usually have more to exploit if it is balanced specifically for them rather than the majority populace.

If you can balance to help low skill players, the gap is made smaller between them and "the elite" even though both parties benefit from the changes.

If you balance around "the elite" only, then low skill players will not benefit but only those who are in the top echelons can.

Every serious game on the market now uses elite-level play for balance decisions. Maybe you and PGI are on an island of correct-thinking and the industry is in a sea of ignorance, but I don't find that likely.

[krash27]

ryoma, on 05 September 2013 - 07:37 PM, said:

http://www.nogutsnog...opic,930.0.html

Based on the views expressed on third person view and balance it's become obvious that the people balancing this game don't actually play at a high level. To put it in other words PGI is balancing the game around Bronze 5 queue metagame.

They don't understand the strength in scouting using 3PV.

This probably also extends to dumb weapon balance changes.

Video Highlights 3PV being used as intended. To assist sniping builds and reduce the need for scouting.

By the way, your video shows how to exploit 3PV, not its intended use. Lots of assumptions. I believe PGI will get it balanced. Please do move on to hello kitty world. Seems the competitive players are stamping their feet, throwing tantrums now that they realize that this game is for everyone, not just them and that pugs are not their fodder. Fun and fair games are OP I guess.

tenderloving, on 06 September 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

Every serious game on the market now uses elite-level play for balance decisions. Maybe you and PGI are on an island of correct-thinking and the industry is in a sea of ignorance, but I don't find that likely.

Realy? Quote your sources. You can't just say that every serious game on the market now uses elite-level play for balance decisions and not prove it. So prove it, show us FACTS, not you taking wild guesses. You say every hgame, I will be happy if you prove a lot of games do.

Edited by krash27, 06 September 2013 - 03:59 AM.

[Eddie Smurphy]

Krash27, it's rather easy to figure out actually. Because if High level play is balanced low level play is automatically also balanced, why you may ask? High level players will be able to abuse things through game knowledge and more skilled play. It's the competitive and high level players who will find the next broken thing, simply because it's in their best interest to find the best tactic/loadout/way of playing.

As an example of games that use this way of balancing you will find: Starcraft 2, Dota/LoL, Counterstrike, and the like.
Anyhow, there is NO reason to balance for the mid or low bracket because they will be also be balanced in higher level play. Gauss/PPC may not have been broken in low bracket que's because people don't know how to proper strafe sniping (moving sideways, how to torso twist and the like) However mid and high brackets did use it more and more which causes problems exponentially.

Edited by Fingonar, 06 September 2013 - 04:15 AM.

[Villz]

Vila deVere, on 06 September 2013 - 03:34 AM, said:

The rest of us will have moved on to games that are actually well-designed.

Clearly not as shown by your presence here ;-)

[Gizmoh]

Fingonar, on 06 September 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

Krash27, it's rather easy to figure out actually. Because if High level play is balanced low level play is automatically also balanced, why you may ask? High level players will be able to abuse things through game knowledge and more skilled play. It's the competitive and high level players who will find the next broken thing, simply because it's in their best interest to find the best tactic/loadout/way of playing.

As an example of games that use this way of balancing you will find: Starcraft 2, Dota/LoL, Counterstrike, and the like.
Anyhow, there is NO reason to balance for the mid or low bracket because they will be also be balanced in higher level play. Gauss/PPC may not have been broken in low bracket que's because people don't know how to proper strafe sniping (moving sideways, how to torso twist and the like) However mid and high brackets did use it more and more which causes problems exponentially.

That's not exactly true you know, as an example, Xin Zhao in League of Legends.
For those who don't know, Xin Zhao was an extremely powerful champion at release (You can google XinZhao pentakill to see a video of a high level player killing 5 other high level players all by himself) who was later nerfed.
Now, after the first wave of nerfs he was balanced for high level play, since he's a melee champion, and thus, easily counterable, however, he absolutely destroyed mid and low level players, since he was powerful yet easy to use, can you see the parallel here?

[Eddie Smurphy]

Gizmoh, on 06 September 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

That's not exactly true you know, as an example, Xin Zhao in League of Legends.
For those who don't know, Xin Zhao was an extremely powerful champion at release (You can google XinZhao pentakill to see a video of a high level player killing 5 other high level players all by himself) who was later nerfed.
Now, after the first wave of nerfs he was balanced for high level play, since he's a melee champion, and thus, easily counterable, however, he absolutely destroyed mid and low level players, since he was powerful yet easy to use, can you see the parallel here?

Fair enough, however the factor there is a lack of knowledge about the counter, rather then the character being truly overpowered which is hugely preferable to the reverse. Having seen games like Tribes Ascend which released certain weapons based on low tier brackets which then had to be nerfed 4-5 times just so it was on an reasonable level. The competent players would absolutely dominate anyone with these weapons and the game become insanely unbalanced for a long time.

I think It's a fair point that lower tier players may not know how to use/exploit certain things to their advantage and thus results in it feeling either underpowered in their hands or end up dominated by those who do. However I think it's vastly preferable to have weapons be actually balanced and the determining factor being skill, players knowledge, game knowledge and the like.

[Lucian Nostra]

krash27, on 06 September 2013 - 03:58 AM, said:

By the way, your video shows how to exploit 3PV, not its intended use. Lots of assumptions. I believe PGI will get it balanced. Please do move on to hello kitty world. Seems the competitive players are stamping their feet, throwing tantrums now that they realize that this game is for everyone, not just them and that pugs are not their fodder. Fun and fair games are OP I guess.



Realy? Quote your sources. You can't just say that every serious game on the market now uses elite-level play for balance decisions and not prove it. So prove it, show us FACTS, not you taking wild guesses. You say every hgame, I will be happy if you prove a lot of games do.

Actually fairly common knowledge if you play MMOs that the bulk of them run their balance tweaks primarily off of higher end play.

Whether or not it was buffs and nerfs in WoW based on raid gear / pvp gear. LoL nerfs to items n characters based on end of season performance. WoT based on tournaments or a slew of other games.

Don't need to dig it all up, learn something about MMO's and smart design decisions. You don't base your balance on crappy players because your good ones become redonk, you base your balance on your good players because that's where everyone SHOULD be headin once they learn the ropes. Less crutches = good

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 06 September 2013 - 05:29 AM.

[Screech]

Lucian Nostra, on 06 September 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

Actually fairly common knowledge if you play MMOs that the bulk of them run their balance tweaks primarily off of higher end play.

Whether or not it was buffs and nerfs in WoW based on raid gear / pvp gear. LoL nerfs to items n characters based on end of season performance. WoT based on tournaments or a slew of other games.

Don't need to dig it all up, learn something about MMO's and smart design decisions. You don't base your balance on crappy players because your good ones become redonk, you base your balance on your good players because that's where everyone SHOULD be headin once they learn the ropes. Less crutches = good

I think you should look up what a MMO is, this game is not a MMO. Comparing this game to LoL and WoW is laughable at best.