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Latest Podcast Confirmed Devs Balance The Game From A Bronze 5 Equivalent Level Play


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#121 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 04:10 AM

View PostTycho von Gagern, on 13 September 2013 - 03:14 AM, said:


OK, ryoma. If you're going to say you almost never see anyone complaining about ghost heat or the Gauss rifle delay on these forums, you keep on keepin' on.


have you read why people complain about this?
Hint 1: It's not because ghost heat broke their Quad PPC Stalker
Hint 2: It's not because Gauss charge up broke someone's Gausscat.

#122 Dimento Graven

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 06:28 AM

View PostTycho von Gagern, on 12 September 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

I think before we decide who PGI should be taking advice from, we should consider what that advice is.

As I recall, it was all the "top" players who were saying, "Oh, no, nothing wrong with the 6 PPC Stalker meta. The problem is all these LRMs, SSRMs, and anything I don't consider "skill based."
Then it was, "Oh, no, 2 PPC/Gauss is fine. No problem there. Leave it alone. Leave ECM alone. Leave whatever abuse-able mechanic I've discovered alone. The only thing that's wrong with this game is 3pv, LRMs, SSRMs, anything I don't consider "skill based" and oh yeah the ***** n00b whiners that don't agree with me."

...
Yeah it was sad when the REAL cause of the problem was a lack of a robust heat affects table ALLOWING all 6 PPC's to be fired with little to no risk to the pilot doing so.

#123 DaZur

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 07:23 AM

While I largely agree with the "trickle-down" effect of balancing from the top-tier perspective... Your P.R. department for the top-tier advocates needs to be fired. :lol:

If your attempting to convince the middling and low-level players that PGI drawing from your experience and sage advice is the best recourse, allowing your more vocal representatives to berate, admonish and demean the middling and low-level player base, essentially telling them their opinions are worthless, should not be considered and that they should just shut their pie-holes and let the top-tier intelligentsia manage the balance issues... Is not going to win their hearts and minds. :)

It may be true... It may best serve the community as a whole.. but elitist arrogance is not an endearing quality...

#124 Shibas

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 08:40 AM

Haha, the gaming community version of might makes right. I beat you, therefore I dictate what happens.

#125 TOGSolid

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 10:21 AM

View PostDaZur, on 13 September 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

While I largely agree with the "trickle-down" effect of balancing from the top-tier perspective... Your P.R. department for the top-tier advocates needs to be fired. :)

If your attempting to convince the middling and low-level players that PGI drawing from your experience and sage advice is the best recourse, allowing your more vocal representatives to berate, admonish and demean the middling and low-level player base, essentially telling them their opinions are worthless, should not be considered and that they should just shut their pie-holes and let the top-tier intelligentsia manage the balance issues... Is not going to win their hearts and minds. :D

It may be true... It may best serve the community as a whole.. but elitist arrogance is not an endearing quality...

Yeah. Though sometimes some people just need to be **** on because it's well known that they never listen even to well explained, reasoned arguments. Hell, look at how many people actually argued against the established math in the UAC/5 damage analysis thread and are still arguing about it.

Explain it nicely once. If the response is blunderingly stupid THEN you can just take a {Scrap} on them.

Edited by TOGSolid, 14 September 2013 - 10:21 AM.


#126 aniviron

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 11:16 AM

View PostTycho von Gagern, on 12 September 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

I think before we decide who PGI should be taking advice from, we should consider what that advice is.

As I recall, it was all the "top" players who were saying, "Oh, no, nothing wrong with the 6 PPC Stalker meta. The problem is all these LRMs, SSRMs, and anything I don't consider "skill based."

Then it was, "Oh, no, 2 PPC/Gauss is fine. No problem there. Leave it alone. Leave ECM alone. Leave whatever abuse-able mechanic I've discovered alone. The only thing that's wrong with this game is 3pv, LRMs, SSRMs, anything I don't consider "skill based," and oh yeah the ***** n00b whiners that don't agree with me."

You can say that you are the best player in MWO and that's why PGI should be listening to your recommendations all you want. Maybe you are the best player in MWO (I doubt it, but whatever). It doesn't matter. PGI shouldn't listen to your recommendations because your recommendations are just as self-serving as everyone else's and suuuuuuucccccckkkkkkk.


That's the thing- the hexappc stalker was not broken. I repeat, it was not broken. Bad build. Very easy to kill. Even as a solo pugger, the 6PPC stalker was rarely anything but fodder. As someone else so delicately put it, the hexapcc stalker had a bit of a narcolepsy problem.

4PPC stalkers, on the other hand, yeah. Almost every high level player I knew agreed that they gave you far too much effectiveness for the amount of skill they required. The 4PPC stalker still put some stupid damage downrange, but it didn't have to take a nap after every shot, would have an engine fast enough to turn and keep up with circling lights (or mediums, seriously those 6PPC stalkers were running like 150 engines) and had far more heat sinks, enough that they could keep firing after just one volley.

I don't think I know a good competitive player who has ever said that LRMs were OP, except during the three-day lurmpocalypse where they were hitting in the cockpit every time. SSRMs are actually still too good- not because they destroy every mech every all the time and are too good in all situations, but because they essentially invalidate light play entirely. Almost every light mech carries either ECM or streaks even to this day- and that's because streaks are just too good against lights. The fundamental concept of a weapon that never misses and does continuous damage over time will always be broken against lights, as they just don't have the armor to withstand a fight against anything that pits their ability to aim and dodge against their opponent's ability to click once every few seconds for 30s.

If you think there were droves of good players defending ECM's implementation in this game, you need to reexamine your sources. I can't think of a single good player who has defended ECM, either the way it works now or how good it used to be. It's just far far far too good for a 1.5t 2 slot accessory, and pretty much everyone has always agreed on that.

Most of the people you've seen defending these things have not been good players. They've been mediocre players who have been abusing broken mechanics who don't want to see them fixed. What good players actually want is a balanced game. We want to drop in 12mans and pugs and see a huge variety of tactics that are viable. We want to be able to see a team of mixed brawlers, snipers, scouts, skirmishers, midfielders, and more, and say, "Yeah, that looks reasonable." Do you have any idea how boring it is to drop game after game where every single player is using nothing but PPC or PPC/gauss? With maybe an occasional ac40? That's. Really. Boring. It's not fun. We want everything to be equally good, we want balance, because that's what makes the game fun.

#127 ryoma

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 02:57 PM

It's a shame to see the devs continuing to ignore good players in the current ATD.

#128 xMEPHISTOx

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 03:02 PM

Indeed, but what to do eh. Your sig says it all we the core/competitive players and founders are not their primary interest and that pretty much sums it up.

Edited by xMEPHISTOx, 23 September 2013 - 03:03 PM.


#129 Volthorne

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 06:36 PM

View PostxMEPHISTOx, on 23 September 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Indeed, but what to do eh. Your sig says it all we the core/competitive players and founders are not their primary interest and that pretty much sums it up.

Just wondering, but exactly how many of the players (out of the millions) who play LoL spend $20 or more each month (on average)... and never touch the ranked matches? My guess is more than half. I should certainly hope the competitive players aren't the "core" target audience. If they were, we'd be so incredibly ******.

Edited by Volthorne, 23 September 2013 - 06:37 PM.


#130 Sephlock

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 06:48 PM

View Postryoma, on 06 September 2013 - 01:08 AM, said:

When you balance around a metagame used by low kill players it creates large waves and ripples in higher level play where intricacies can be exploited.

This explains the see saw effect we've seen a million times
PGI intorduces a change
things are ok for a bit
high level players find a way to break it
things stop being ok as this knowledge trickles down.

The problem isn't that the devs are bad at the game really, but that they don't use good enough players to assist them in balance. Videos like in my OP post surfaced within days of 3PV implementation and show one of the aspects of 3PV that is downright OP in the hands of someone who isn't terrible at this game. If these people were involved in testing then such bad balance changes wouldn't hit servers so often.

Look forward to UAC/5.

That's logical, but I really don't think that's the problem at all. Seriously, anyone who has ever played any third person game ever knows about the advantages of peeking. Hell, anyone who has ever played PAC MAN knows about the advantages of a non first person view.

#131 ryoma

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 09:26 PM

View PostSephlock, on 23 September 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

That's logical, but I really don't think that's the problem at all. Seriously, anyone who has ever played any third person game ever knows about the advantages of peeking. Hell, anyone who has ever played PAC MAN knows about the advantages of a non first person view.


The devs don't. They have literally stated that the advantage achieved "is not a big deal." Other statements include that "even if their is an advantage, few players know how to use 3PV like that, so it's not a big deal"

I find this to be very careless of the devs.





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