147 replies to this topic

[Strum Wealh]

xXButcherBlackXx, on 12 September 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

Just did some digging and found this:
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/#ammo_types

If this is correct, all missile types have a health of 10. Though I lean on the side of this value being per ton, given everything else in the chart is, it doesn't clearly state which is correct.

So,

Case 1(10 health per missile):

- PPCs, ERPPCs, AC-10/20, and Gauss should destroy a missile instantly.
- A Large Pulse Laser would require you to keep on target for the duration of the beam.
- Theoretically, a collection of lesser lasers could destroy a missile. (Teamwork!)

Case 2 (10 health per ton of missiles):

- A ton of LRM(180 missiles/ton) with a health of 10 means .056 health/missile
- A ton of SRM or SSRM(100 missiles/ton) with a health of 10 means .100 health/missile
- A shot from any weapon can destroy missiles.

Missiles can be destroyed by weapons other than AMS in either case; though if case 2 were adopted, things like the flamer would need to have no effect on missiles for obvious reasons. I'm not even touching on the heat being applied to the missiles, which should have some effect also. As far as ballistics, even an AC-2 should destroy a missile based sheerly on blunt force.

Actually, the "health" column represents the health/hit-points of the ammo bin within the 'Mech.
That is, one has to do 10 points of damage to the critical slot containing the ammo bin in order to bring about an ammo explosion.

[xXButcherBlackXx]

Strum Wealh, on 12 September 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Actually, the "health" column represents the health/hit-points of the ammo bin within the 'Mech.
That is, one has to do 10 points of damage to the critical slot containing the ammo bin in order to bring about an ammo explosion.

Thanks for clearing that up. I'll have to come at this from a different angle, since you've destroyed my main point , which is the AMS itself.

AMS does 3.5 damage per second against missiles.
AMS locks onto and destroys 2 missiles per second.

Therefore, Missiles can take 1.75 damage each.

Given this, most weapons should be able to destroy them with not much difficulty. This falls into place nicely since using the machine gun and flamer would, as expected, be difficult/impossible.

http://mwo.gamepedia..._Missile_System

Edited by xXButcherBlackXx, 15 September 2013 - 04:56 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

xXButcherBlackXx, on 15 September 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

Thanks for clearing that up. I'll have to come at this from a different angle, since you've destroyed my main point , which is the AMS itself.

AMS does 3.5 damage per second against missiles.
AMS locks onto and destroys 2 missiles per second.

Therefore, Missiles can take 1.75 damage each.

Given this, most weapons should be able to destroy them with not much difficulty. This falls into place nicely since using the machine gun and flamer would, as expected, be difficult/impossible.

http://mwo.gamepedia..._Missile_System

It's not quite that simple...

According to Thomas Dziegielewski (MWO's Senior Gameplay Engineer) as of June 2013:

• 3.5 damage per second, not per bullet. The bullets are just a particle effect.
  
• NARC has 2 hit points, every other missile has 1.

AMS range is 200 meters (according to Thomas Dziegielewski, as of January 2013).
LRM flight velocity is 120 m/s, SRM flight velocity is 200 m/s, and Narc flight velocity is 250 m/s (as of this writing, according to MWO Wiki).

• LRMs (at 120 m/s) will take 1.67 seconds to cover the 200 meter distance; in that time, one AMS will output 5.83 units of damage ((3.50 damage/second) * (1.67 seconds)).
  
• SRMs (at 200 m/s) will take 1.00 seconds to cover the 200 meter distance; in that time, one AMS will output 3.50 units of damage ((3.50 damage/second) * (1.00 seconds)).
  
• Narc beacons (at 250 m/s) will take 0.80 seconds to cover the 200 meter distance; in that time, one AMS will output 2.80 units of damage ((3.50 damage/second) * (0.80 seconds)).

Since missiles (presumably) will not fall to partial damage, an AMS can destroy up to 5 LRMs, 3 SRMs, or 1 Narc pod - assuming said missiles are initially fired from over 200 meters away from the (more-or-less stationary) AMS platform and the AMS platform has LOS to the missiles from the moment they cross the 200-meter threshold.

In general, the current belief is that lasers deal their damage in sets of 10 or so ticks through their "burn time" (as noted here and here).

All of the lasers except the LPL would need at least two of their 10 "ticks" to destroy a single LRM or SRM, and all of the lasers except the LPL would need at least three of their 10 "ticks" to destroy a single Narc pod... assuming the p,ayer can actually keep the beam on a single missile for long enough to actually deliver the damage.
With the missiles being as small and fast as they are, even shooting down one missile in this manner is highly unlikely.
And since missiles are spread far enough apart so as to not be detonated by the explosion of nearby missiles (otherwise, AMS would only need to destroy a single missile to take down a whole swarm), it will not produce the anime-esque "cloud of exploding missiles" effect.

Likewise, the missiles are spread far enough apart and immune to the detonation of their neighbors that the unlikely event of actually striking a missile with an Autocannon shell or PPC bolt (as opposed to the shell or bolt passing between the missiles) would destroy only that individual missile, leaving the rest of its brethren free to continue their approach.

As such: even if the Devs did bother to implement the capability, it would be of so little utility due to the general inability to actually hit even a single missile that it wouldn't matter.

[xXButcherBlackXx]

Strum Wealh, on 15 September 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

It's not quite that simple...

According to Thomas Dziegielewski (MWO's Senior Gameplay Engineer) as of June 2013:

• 3.5 damage per second, not per bullet. The bullets are just a particle effect.
  
• NARC has 2 hit points, every other missile has 1.

AMS range is 200 meters (according to Thomas Dziegielewski, as of January 2013).


LRM flight velocity is 120 m/s, SRM flight velocity is 200 m/s, and Narc flight velocity is 250 m/s (as of this writing, according to MWO Wiki).

• LRMs (at 120 m/s) will take 1.67 seconds to cover the 200 meter distance; in that time, one AMS will output 5.83 units of damage ((3.50 damage/second) * (1.67 seconds)).
  
• SRMs (at 200 m/s) will take 1.00 seconds to cover the 200 meter distance; in that time, one AMS will output 3.50 units of damage ((3.50 damage/second) * (1.00 seconds)).
  
• Narc beacons (at 250 m/s) will take 0.80 seconds to cover the 200 meter distance; in that time, one AMS will output 2.80 units of damage ((3.50 damage/second) * (0.80 seconds)).

Since missiles (presumably) will not fall to partial damage, an AMS can destroy up to 5 LRMs, 3 SRMs, or 1 Narc pod - assuming said missiles are initially fired from over 200 meters away from the (more-or-less stationary) AMS platform and the AMS platform has LOS to the missiles from the moment they cross the 200-meter threshold.



In general, the current belief is that lasers deal their damage in sets of 10 or so ticks through their "burn time" (as noted here and here).

All of the lasers except the LPL would need at least two of their 10 "ticks" to destroy a single LRM or SRM, and all of the lasers except the LPL would need at least three of their 10 "ticks" to destroy a single Narc pod... assuming the p,ayer can actually keep the beam on a single missile for long enough to actually deliver the damage.
With the missiles being as small and fast as they are, even shooting down one missile in this manner is highly unlikely.
And since missiles are spread far enough apart so as to not be detonated by the explosion of nearby missiles (otherwise, AMS would only need to destroy a single missile to take down a whole swarm), it will not produce the anime-esque "cloud of exploding missiles" effect.

Likewise, the missiles are spread far enough apart and immune to the detonation of their neighbors that the unlikely event of actually striking a missile with an Autocannon shell or PPC bolt (as opposed to the shell or bolt passing between the missiles) would destroy only that individual missile, leaving the rest of its brethren free to continue their approach.

As such: even if the Devs did bother to implement the capability, it would be of so little utility due to the general inability to actually hit even a single missile that it wouldn't matter.

It still stands that missiles can only take 1.75 damage. As for the argument about ticks, you forget that mechs can have multiple lasers and the combined ticks from multiple teammates will add up quickly. Even on your own, at the slow pace missiles move in the game, getting a few ticks on some missiles wouldn't be that difficult. In a previous post someone stated how lights can outrun missiles...do people find it difficult to hit a light with multiple ticks of the laser?

I also see that there is no mention of PPCs; most likely because that damage is dealt on contact. Even you must admit that PPC/ERPPC would annihilate some missiles.

BTW, the duration seems to refer to the how long 1 shot lasts. Tick is the duration of each of the 10 ticks; so for small lasers .3 damage is applied every .075 seconds.

Time for small laser to defeat a missile.
1.75(dmg/missile) / .300(dmg/tick) = 5.83 ticks * .075(sec/tick) = .450 seconds

Edited by xXButcherBlackXx, 16 September 2013 - 11:27 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

xXButcherBlackXx, on 16 September 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

It still stands that missiles can only take 1.75 damage. As for the argument about ticks, you forget that mechs can have multiple lasers and the combined ticks from multiple teammates will add up quickly. Even on your own, at the slow pace missiles move in the game, getting a few ticks on some missiles wouldn't be that difficult. In a previous post someone stated how lights can outrun missiles...do people find it difficult to hit a light with multiple ticks of the laser?

I also see that there is no mention of PPCs; most likely because that damage is dealt on contact. Even you must admit that PPC/ERPPC would annihilate some missiles.

BTW, the duration seems to refer to the how long 1 shot lasts. Tick is the duration of each of the 10 ticks; so for small lasers .3 damage is applied every .075 seconds.

Time for small laser to defeat a missile.
1.75(dmg/missile) / .300(dmg/tick) = 5.83 ticks * .075(sec/tick) = .450 seconds

No, it does not "still stand that missiles can take 1.75 damage"; there are multiple states from PGI's Senior Gameplay Engineer indicating that LRMs and SRMs (including SSRMs) have only a single hit-point (that is, 1.00 units of health) while Narc pods have two hit-points (2.00 units of health).
To continue to claim that a missile takes 1.75 units of damage to destroy is simply and demonstrably incorrect.

To destroy a single LRM or SRM (that is, one missile out of the swarm), at least 1.00 units of damage must be focused on an individual missile - not simply fired in the general direction of the swarm, but actually focused directly on an individual missile.
For a single laser weapon other than a Large Pulse Laser, this will take 0.150 seconds (the time required for two "ticks" from a Medium Pulse Laser, for a total of 1.20 units of damage) as a bare minimum - and only when the "ticks" are not subject to too much range-based damage drop-off, which means the missiles must already be within ~190 meters (slightly over the effective range of the MPLs).
For a single Small Laser to destroy a single LRM, it would need to deliver no less than 1.00 units of damage to the individual missile, which will take at least four ticks (or 0.3 seconds).

To use Small Lasers to destroy a single LRM within the space of a single "tick", one would need to fire at least four of them (for a total of 1.20 damage per combined "tick") and the missile would have to be within ~100 meters (slightly over the effective range of the SLs) - assuming that one is lucky enough to be able to even hit a single missile (as opposed to having the beam(s) pass harmlessly between the missiles) in the first place.
And even if one succeeds in hitting a single missile, the other 4-19 missiles (in the unlikely event that only a single LRM launcher was fired) are still incoming and are due to hit in less than 0.8 seconds.

Additionally, PPCs (along with Autocannons) were explicitly mentioned in my post.

Strum Wealh, on 15 September 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

Likewise, the missiles are spread far enough apart and immune to the detonation of their neighbors that the unlikely event of actually striking a missile with an Autocannon shell or PPC bolt (as opposed to the shell or bolt passing between the missiles) would destroy only that individual missile, leaving the rest of its brethren free to continue their approach.

Again, LRMs and SRMs are sufficiently rugged and sufficiently spread apart from one another such that destroying one missile (as would happen in the (unlikely) event of one actually managing to hit one with an AC shell or PPC bolt) has no effect on the rest of the missiles (otherwise, AMS itself would only need to destroy a single missile to take down a whole swarm) - the other 4-19 missiles (in the unlikely event that only a single LRM launcher was fired) are still incoming, and each PPC can destroy at most one missile every four seconds (and generate 10 or 15 units of heat while doing so).
LRMs, at 120 m/s, take approximately 8.33 seconds to travel to their maximum range of 1000 meters from the launcher; if the missiles have been in the air for more than one second or are fired from less than 960 meters away, the literally PPC cannot fire more than twice (and thus could not possibly take down more than two LRMs at most... assuming it can hit the missiles in the first place) before the missiles arrive.

The need for such high levels of precision and accuracy, combined with human reaction time (0.1-0.2 seconds, at best) and the relatively sluggish movements of BattleMechs, necessarily makes using normal weapons as anti-missile measures a largely-ineffectual measure.

[xXButcherBlackXx]

Strum Wealh, on 16 September 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

No, it does not "still stand that missiles can take 1.75 damage"; there are multiple states from PGI's Senior Gameplay Engineer indicating that LRMs and SRMs (including SSRMs) have only a single hit-point (that is, 1.00 units of health) while Narc pods have two hit-points (2.00 units of health).
To continue to claim that a missile takes 1.75 units of damage to destroy is simply and demonstrably incorrect.

Whether it is 1.00 or 1.75 that's still very little damage and the former helps my point that missiles are weak and should be vulnerable to normal weapons.

Strum Wealh, on 16 September 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

To destroy a single LRM or SRM (that is, one missile out of the swarm), at least 1.00 units of damage must be focused on an individual missile - not simply fired in the general direction of the swarm, but actually focused directly on an individual missile.
For a single laser weapon other than a Large Pulse Laser, this will take 0.150 seconds (the time required for two "ticks" from a Medium Pulse Laser, for a total of 1.20 units of damage) as a bare minimum - and only when the "ticks" are not subject to too much range-based damage drop-off, which means the missiles must already be within ~190 meters (slightly over the effective range of the MPLs).
For a single Small Laser to destroy a single LRM, it would need to deliver no less than 1.00 units of damage to the individual missile, which will take at least four ticks (or 0.3 seconds).

When we are talking about fractions of seconds, saying that shots have to be "focused" makes no sense. .3 seconds, considering it's the weakest laser in the game for this example, is practically nothing. Also, don't forget that missiles are predictable and there are times when they are travelling in more or less a straight line. They're definitely not the most elusive targets.

Strum Wealh, on 16 September 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Again, LRMs and SRMs are sufficiently rugged and sufficiently spread apart from one another such that destroying one missile (as would happen in the (unlikely) event of one actually managing to hit one with an AC shell or PPC bolt) has no effect on the rest of the missiles

Something that can only take 1 dmg point isn't rugged at all and What source states that the missiles are that spread apart? In-game they seem tightly clustered to me; so much so that a ppc would make contact with at least a few simultaneously.

Strum Wealh, on 16 September 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

The need for such high levels of precision and accuracy, combined with human reaction time (0.1-0.2 seconds, at best) and the relatively sluggish movements of BattleMechs, necessarily makes using normal weapons as anti-missile measures a largely-ineffectual measure.

I contend that we are more than capable of pointing a laser on a moving target for a few fractions of a second. We already do it against light mechs moving 100+ kph(on par with missiles) and they're a relatively small target at range. I think you're drastically underestimating the abilities of the mechs and our brains.

One person's "largely-ineffectual measure" is another person's "highly-effectual last resort". Not implementing a sensible feature just because you wouldn't make use of it yourself is wrong. Even blocking 1 missile could mean the difference between winning and losing a game; though I obviously feel that taking down more than that wouldn't be difficult considering multiple lasers and teammates.

Edited by xXButcherBlackXx, 16 September 2013 - 03:47 PM.

[Tweaks]

I really so absolutely no valid reason against this suggestion. Missiles are rockets with an explosive warhead. That makes them small, extremely fast, but also extremely explosive. If anyone is good or lucky enough to shoot a few down with his lasers, good for him. I really see no problem with that and it's perfectly logical too.

The US army actually developed a chemical and solid state laser that does just that: blows up missiles out of the sky. Why would this be so far fetched in MWO?

[MoonUnitBeta]

I would like to use large lasers to rake lrms from the sky. Often they're coming straight for me (not streaming across the sky in an arc, perpendicular to me) and I -KNOW- that 3 large laser alpha can take out a couple missiles. If it was something like large lasers only, and ppc's (maybe ppcs when hit lrm's create a small bubble emp that knocks out a few from the clus- okay okay. too far) So large lasers only. Would be nice. I don't care about what you have to say about AMS or what you have to say about how you can't be able to hit them. It would be nice regardless. Too literally be ABLE to shoot missiles out of the sky. Whether or not my aim is good enough is another question, but the possibility is still very welcome.

Make-shift LAMS anyone? *wink wink*

i think LRMs could also get a speed buff. But like PGI, you can't balance skill, but you can aim to balance priorities on player's agenda. Right now LRM's = find cover. with speed buff, you might not be able to find cover, so you have alternative to shoot them down, not many, but you can pick off a couple i'm sure. Why is everyone against that? If they're still too easy to kill, make the hitboxes smaller, or make them armored, give them characteristics. Why not? It's that stuff that just keeps adding to the flesh of the game.

"Why can't i shoot down missiles?" I don't know how many times that question gets asked a day without it being posted on the forums, but I'm sure it's a lot. Or even "Wouldn't it be cool to shoot them down?" I mean, This isn't an idea or question that is just the vocal minority that's talking about. Everyone has thought about it once, and many more people i'm sure think how neat it would be.

The vocal minority says it'd be cool, so the silent majority must think it's not cool - that's how it works, right?

I'm not asking for much, i'm just asking for options. Possibilites. Ways to utilize my skills and add more to my thought process. I'm always looking for more ways to better myself, and keep my team alive. If I can shoot at them, I will, if it means less damage to my team mate, then hells yeah count me in. I wanna be the big brother on the battle field (not a hero) and look over everyone, oversee events and intercept threats, pull attention, trick the enemy, and so on. It's so hard to do that in MWO right now. Shooting LRM's would add to that. It would help me be the big brother to help give everyone else a better chance.

I can pull the attention, brawl, and while brawling i see in the distance, what's that? LRMS! quickly now, move behind a building and take cover to stop the damage from the mech i was brawling with to give me a chance to take out a couple missles! (bang bang!) 2 missiles down, hope that helps! Now that mech i was brawling has moved around the corner and I begin brawling with him. Bang bang he's dead, but i'm close to follow. I meander out from cover and take a peek. Suddenly LRMs incoming to me! Bang! Bang! Bang! 3 missiles down, and there's another volley behind it! A team mate far to the right takes out two missiles as well from the first volley, AMS takes out 3 and I get hit with a couple. I'm nearly dead! I find cover and the second volley smashs into the building's side. I type "Thanks for shooting down some missiles!!", i get a response: "Np!"

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 16 September 2013 - 07:40 PM.

[xXButcherBlackXx]

MoonUnitBeta, on 16 September 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

I would like to use large lasers to rake lrms from the sky. Often they're coming straight for me (not streaming across the sky in an arc, perpendicular to me) and I -KNOW- that 3 large laser alpha can take out a couple missiles. If it was something like large lasers only, and ppc's (maybe ppcs when hit lrm's create a small bubble emp that knocks out a few from the clus- okay okay. too far) So large lasers only. Would be nice. I don't care about what you have to say about AMS or what you have to say about how you can't be able to hit them. It would be nice regardless. Too literally be ABLE to shoot missiles out of the sky. Whether or not my aim is good enough is another question, but the possibility is still very welcome.

Make-shift LAMS anyone? *wink wink*

i think LRMs could also get a speed buff. But like PGI, you can't balance skill, but you can aim to balance priorities on player's agenda. Right now LRM's = find cover. with speed buff, you might not be able to find cover, so you have alternative to shoot them down, not many, but you can pick off a couple i'm sure. Why is everyone against that? If they're still too easy to kill, make the hitboxes smaller, or make them armored, give them characteristics. Why not? It's that stuff that just keeps adding to the flesh of the game.

"Why can't i shoot down missiles?" I don't know how many times that question gets asked a day without it being posted on the forums, but I'm sure it's a lot. Or even "Wouldn't it be cool to shoot them down?" I mean, This isn't an idea or question that is just the vocal minority that's talking about. Everyone has thought about it once, and many more people i'm sure think how neat it would be.

The vocal minority says it'd be cool, so the silent majority must think it's not cool - that's how it works, right?

I'm not asking for much, i'm just asking for options. Possibilites. Ways to utilize my skills and add more to my thought process. I'm always looking for more ways to better myself, and keep my team alive. If I can shoot at them, I will, if it means less damage to my team mate, then hells yeah count me in. I wanna be the big brother on the battle field (not a hero) and look over everyone, oversee events and intercept threats, pull attention, trick the enemy, and so on. It's so hard to do that in MWO right now. Shooting LRM's would add to that. It would help me be the big brother to help give everyone else a better chance.

I can pull the attention, brawl, and while brawling i see in the distance, what's that? LRMS! quickly now, move behind a building and take cover to stop the damage from the mech i was brawling with to give me a chance to take out a couple missles! (bang bang!) 2 missiles down, hope that helps! Now that mech i was brawling has moved around the corner and I begin brawling with him. Bang bang he's dead, but i'm close to follow. I meander out from cover and take a peek. Suddenly LRMs incoming to me! Bang! Bang! Bang! 3 missiles down, and there's another volley behind it! A team mate far to the right takes out two missiles as well from the first volley, AMS takes out 3 and I get hit with a couple. I'm nearly dead! I find cover and the second volley smashs into the building's side. I type "Thanks for shooting down some missiles!!", i get a response: "Np!"

I wouldn't mind a speed buff to missiles. That would make shooting them down more rewarding and give LRM boats something to be happy about. 2 birds with 1 stone as they say.

Your hypothetical story at the end is how many of us imagined it would be on day 1. It also shows that just because you can shoot missiles doesn't make you invincible. You still should always try to get to cover and it's a good idea to have teammates around to give a helping gauss...I mean hand.

Edited by xXButcherBlackXx, 17 September 2013 - 03:26 PM.

[Zerberus]

xXButcherBlackXx, on 09 September 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

... If the missiles were made out of some ultra-high density metal or some type of special shielding I would just accept it and move on, but they aren't; ...

Credible proof that they aren`t , please. I can not find nor recall any information from TROs or novels detailing LRM construction.....

That`s the problem with fantasy universes, fantasy physics. If our physics were fully applicable, an AC20 Jager would be a sniper build that can reach out and sucker punch people at 2k meters plus

Edited by Zerberus, 18 September 2013 - 08:12 AM.

[xXButcherBlackXx]

Zerberus, on 18 September 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Credible proof that they aren`t , please. I can not find nor recall any information from TROs or novels detailing LRM construction.....

That`s the problem with fantasy universes, fantasy physics. If our physics were fully applicable, an AC20 Jager would be a sniper build that can reach out and sucker punch people at 2k meters plus

The mechs would be utilizing that stronger armor and shielding if it existed. Instead they use steel or some combo of steel, titanium, etc., and show no special ability to defeat energy weapons. So though I can't point you to a source on missile construction, it'd be illogical for them to be stronger than a mechs armor/shielding.

[Master Maniac]

Shooting down missiles is a fine idea. For "realism" purists, the idea of counting missiles with lasers is already in active development IRL, and we don't have ER Large Lasers yet.

From a gameplay standpoint, it's a GREAT idea. It looks cool, feels good, and can be quite rewarding. It "makes sense" to attempt to thin down the herd yourself. This would require timing and concentration on the target. If you want to save yourself from a swarm of missiles, you have to take your attention away from enemy mechs to do it.

Certain weapons should be more effective at destroying missiles than others, with the Large Lasers perhaps the most efficient. Machine guns could be a last-ditch close range defense against missiles, too. It could work by the shots having a random chance per second of "popping" missiles in the swarm on contact.

For LRM lovers, no one is really suggesting that players should be able to completely nullify LRM attacks. Shooting at missile swarms should essentially act as an additional (hefty) AMS effect bonus, which is more effective when working with an actual AMS.

[Enzane]

I have said since the beginning, and I say so now.

Machine guns should be able to shoot down LRMs if the pilot has some skills.

That is what AMS is right now, a vertical, auto aiming, Machine gun. So why can't Pilots apply this as well?

It would create more reason for MGs to show up in the battlefield. If you had a way to vote for solely that I would.

[Drunk Canuck]

MnDragon, on 09 September 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

And so begins the quest to add the LosTech Mech Patriot Missile Launching system so that we can begin shooting down missiles with missiles and have those missile shot down by other missiles and AMS. file:///C:/Users/Dragon/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.gif [/sarcasm]

But seriously, missiles are perfectly fine where they are at. They have more counters than buffs, I shall enumerate them:

• ECM prevents LRMers from obtaining missile lock, thus if said LRMer is froggy and can actually see the target, he can “dumb fire” for maybe a few hits.
  
• LRMs require LOS to lock. Not necessarily the firer’s line of sight, but SOMEONE needs to have a visual, target said mech, and then stand there long enough to relay the data to the LRMer. All of which doesn’t work if the scout is under enemy ECM or if the target moves out of LOS.
  
• LRMs beat Paper, Paper beats Rock, Rock beats LRMs. When in doubt, find cover. LRMs don’t fire like a javelin, they have a relatively low angle of attack. Any large rock, building, atlas makes a good missile shield.
  
• AMS can already shoot down roughly 25% of a missile volley. (around 5 missiles per volley PER AMS SYSTEM WITHIN 200m) So if you and say the rest of your lance all have AMS, you just negated an LRM20. Incidentally, there is ONLY ONE mech in the entire inventory that can’t equip AMS---the X5 which brings me to my last point:
  
• Lights can outrun Missiles

For the second time today I will say this: I agree with PGI, AMS: Working as Intended.

Most people are too stupid to carry AMS, they'd rather load on more weapons and heat sinks then use 1.5 tons of space for AMS. I can't recall how exactly AMS functioned in the earlier MechWarrior games, I know in 4 it was an equipment option but didn't take up critical slots, just tonnage, I don't believe it required ammo either. This is kind of the way I wish PGI had gone with the AMS, ECM and BAP design, because it would give players a reason to carry those pieces of equipment without eating up critical slots.

[xXButcherBlackXx]

Drunk Canuck, on 19 September 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

Most people are too stupid to carry AMS, they'd rather load on more weapons and heat sinks then use 1.5 tons of space for AMS. I can't recall how exactly AMS functioned in the earlier MechWarrior games, I know in 4 it was an equipment option but didn't take up critical slots, just tonnage, I don't believe it required ammo either. This is kind of the way I wish PGI had gone with the AMS, ECM and BAP design, because it would give players a reason to carry those pieces of equipment without eating up critical slots.

I don't think it's about being stupid. If you have a long range build then there isn't much point in carrying one over extra ammo. Being that far out means you have more time to get to cover or can walk out of the missiles range. You stay under the protection of someone else's AMS/ECM if you're too close to the action.

That part about infinite AMS ammo seems cheap.

It's great to see all of the ideas and points of contention being debated.

Edited by xXButcherBlackXx, 20 September 2013 - 08:07 AM.

[focuspark]

Enzane, on 19 September 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

I have said since the beginning, and I say so now.

Machine guns should be able to shoot down LRMs if the pilot has some skills.

That is what AMS is right now, a vertical, auto aiming, Machine gun. So why can't Pilots apply this as well?

It would create more reason for MGs to show up in the battlefield. If you had a way to vote for solely that I would.

OK let's try this. I'll get a bazooka, you have have a machine gun. I'm gonna fire the bazooka at you and shoot down the incoming missiles.

Ya know what, it won't work. Machine guns do not fire quickly enough to take it out.

There are very specialized machines which are dedicated anti-missile systems which could. They fire many times more quickly than a machine gun and use smaller faster munitions. The phalanx system used by US forces fires something like 100 rounds per second. Now compare that to MWO's machine gun at 10 rounds per second.

Yeah yeah, I know the AMS shows ammo being used more slowly. However, consider those rounds and batches of ammo.

[fandre]

focuspark, on 13 November 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

Now compare that to MWO's machine gun at 10 rounds per second.

Are kidding us? MWO is a computergame . The game developers can programm anything they like for intercepting missiles. They can make it increadible easy to shot them down or do something else.

[focuspark]

fandre, on 13 November 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

Are kidding us? MWO is a computergame . The game developers can programm anything they like for intercepting missiles. They can make it increadible easy to shot them down or do something else.

Given that logic, then hell no. Weapons do damage to other players, AMS are a defensive system. Weapons are not defensive systems. Discussion ended.

MoonUnitBeta, on 16 September 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

I would like to use large lasers to rake lrms from the sky. Often they're coming straight for me (not streaming across the sky in an arc, perpendicular to me) and I -KNOW- that 3 large laser alpha can take out a couple missiles. ...

What do you suppose the diameter of a laser beam is? 1 micron, 2 microns? What's the chance that a beam that small will actually connect with one of the missiles? Why do you think AMS fire so many rounds? So that they have a hope in hell of actually connecting with the missile. Missiles are relatively small and move fairly fast. Small fast things are really hard to hit... people ***** about Spiders and they're NOT fast compared to missiles.

[Zarlaren]

xXButcherBlackXx, on 09 September 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

I think it's about time Missiles become vulnerable to at least some weapons other than the AMS. It would add more realism to the game and some much needed balance; given that the side with the most LRMs win the match 90% of the time as things stand. Now before you LRM boats complain...shooting down a stream of 50+ missiles with your normal weapons will make you more likely to overheat, may make you waste ammo, and might not even be possible given the trajectory of any incoming missiles; so in those respects this mechanic is not cheap and will not make missiles obsolete.

Please share your thoughts, likes/dislikes, and don't forget to vote

Interesting Idea but sometime best defense is hide behind cover like a hill or some form of environment obsticle.

[MoonUnitBeta]

focuspark, on 13 November 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

Given that logic, then hell no. Weapons do damage to other players, AMS are a defensive system. Weapons are not defensive systems. Discussion ended.


What do you suppose the diameter of a laser beam is? 1 micron, 2 microns? What's the chance that a beam that small will actually connect with one of the missiles? Why do you think AMS fire so many rounds? So that they have a hope in hell of actually connecting with the missile. Missiles are relatively small and move fairly fast. Small fast things are really hard to hit... people ***** about Spiders and they're NOT fast compared to missiles.

I’ll mention that this is a game, a fantasy one no less. So let’s not forget that here. Usually it’s a fact that’s quickly forgotten when talking about machine gun damage/range, gauss recoil/charging/speed/damage, and etc.

Given the thickness of the beams that the game’s visuals suggest, aiming a laser at an LRM to take it out would not be as hard as one might think.
It seems like a common arguing point from the opposition is the redundancy to even bother, usually backed up by pseudo facts. But since it’s a game and nothing about this is real at all, what’s wrong with wanting to try to see if their lasers can help their team out?

Where’s LAMS, by the way? How does that work? Can we not adopt some of those mechanics and work them into a functional and believable mechanic to take out missiles?
Edit: I’m at work so I’m doing this in chucks.

The difference between Spiders and LRM’s is that LRM’s have predictable forward movement, whereas the individual legs of the Spider move forward, stop, move forward, stop, move forward, stop, they change shape and form and it’s very hard to keep a laser on them to deal SIGNIFICANT damage, however you’ll notice that even scoring and little bit of the duration of a few large beams as the leg is planted, you can do turn a yellow leg to red.

I’m not sure where this myth of LRMs going so super fast that they’re impossible to aim at. Given their predictable behaviour they would be easier to shoot down that a spider’s leg would. Shooting lasers head on might be a bit tricky because they’re silhouette is a circle with teeny fins off the sides.
But a side view you have a much broader surface to hit and deal damage, to break it in half, take out some fins, etc.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 13 November 2013 - 02:20 PM.