284 replies to this topic

[CyclonerM]

Marack Drock, on 06 November 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

Battle of Tukayyid:

In short.

Clan Smoke Jaguar, and most of all the others decided to instead of working together to beat the Inner Sphere went rogue and put their power to stop Clan Wolf from winning thus claiming Terra. Also with such a small amount of forces per Clan they were unable to stop the Com Star forces which took advantage and beat the Clans after long fights and battles which led to a "Truce" between the Clans and Inner Sphere which should have lasted for 15 years.

Aftermath:

Our biggest failure as Clanners trying to serve Kerensky's dream. The second Star League forcing all Clan forces out of the Inner Sphere and then peace for 2 years until 3060 when Victor Davion led the New Star League against Clan Smoke Jaguar and massacred them LITERALLY. I was reading and he gave orders that any Smoke Jag survivors that didn't join the Star League or serve the Inner Sphere (Like Slaves) would be put to death. Only about 150 Jags remained out of I.S. control after this. Also after the events of Tukayyid (For the Inner Sphere) the Inner Sphere then broke into Civil War again because they have no Logical skills, and have about as much intelligence as their shoe size. Victor Davion ends up becoming a homicidal maniac, when his sister takes his thrown (Even though he said he never wanted to rule) and neglects his people leading to several Steiner captures and massacres on planets such as Kentaries IV, Carvor V, etc.

Short:
Victor (once good leader) becomes mass murderer
Clans dishonored permanetly
Inner Sphere Civil War for the one millionth time
Inner Sphere innocents massacred

So overall Tukayyid was a mistake for both sides as the Clan Wars before actually helped the Inner Sphere to work together (Tukayyid destroyed that). It was a mistake for the Clans because instead of doing what they came to do (create a working unified galaxy in the name of Kerensky), they quarreled and did their best to fight each other even when it could mean their downfall (and ended up do exactly that).

The entire battle led to more battles which in turn led to the murder of innocent beings who before were 100 times safer.

If the Clans had won and ruled the Sphere under their renewed Star League, very few people would adapt to these invaders' tradition, being so different "from those we left behind".
You would have had rebellions all over the IS, much like Rebels vs Empire, and you would have had anyway a massive guerrilla war with massive numbers of deads on both sides.

Joseph Mallan, on 07 November 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

ComStars fleet (At the time), was no match for the Clan's Naval fleet. The Nova Cat fleet alone would mop the stars with what ComStar had. Have you ever seen the broadside of an Aegis in action? The Cats have 12. That is a Wall of Battle few Ships can survive. I know I did the sims for before Trial of Refusal. In 3 turns the Ghost Bears Warships were scrap vs just 3 Aegis.

Sure, i was just replying to Hillslam who was not sure if ComStar had JumpShips

Edited by CyclonerM, 07 November 2013 - 08:30 AM.

[990Dreams]

If you have ever played the Pictures of a Rebellion campaign, you'd know why Com Guard won...

[Jakob Knight]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 November 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

ComStars fleet (At the time), was no match for the Clan's Naval fleet. The Nova Cat fleet alone would mop the stars with what ComStar had. Have you ever seen the broadside of an Aegis in action? The Cats have 12. That is a Wall of Battle few Ships can survive. I know I did the sims for before Trial of Refusal. In 3 turns the Ghost Bears Warships were scrap vs just 3 Aegis.

True, but the Clans' naval assets were not a combined force, and the individual Clan navies had to also be deployed to defend their homeworlds against both Inner Sphere attack (unlikely, but possible) and the naval assets of Clans that hadn't sent all their warships to the Inner Sphere. By contrast, the Comguards were on defense and were throwing all they had into a last defense, so they had no reason to hold back any naval assets.

In the end, it would have been a much closer battle that would have cost whoever won so much as to be a pyrrhic victory. Just the sort of battle the Clan way is supposed to most avoid. And, let's not forget that we still had the fanatics who would become the Word of Blake in the mix at this time, so the odd nuclear weapon being tossed at the Clans would also have to be figured in.

[Joseph Mallan]

Marack Drock, on 06 November 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

Battle of Tukayyid:

In short.

Clan Smoke Jaguar, and most of all the others decided to instead of working together to beat the Inner Sphere went rogue and put their power to stop Clan Wolf from winning thus claiming Terra. Also with such a small amount of forces per Clan they were unable to stop the Com Star forces which took advantage and beat the Clans after long fights and battles which led to a "Truce" between the Clans and Inner Sphere which should have lasted for 15 years.

Aftermath:

Our biggest failure as Clanners trying to serve Kerensky's dream. The second Star League forcing all Clan forces out of the Inner Sphere and then peace for 2 years until 3060 when Victor Davion led the New Star League against Clan Smoke Jaguar and massacred them LITERALLY. I was reading and he gave orders that any Smoke Jag survivors that didn't join the Star League or serve the Inner Sphere (Like Slaves) would be put to death. Only about 150 Jags remained out of I.S. control after this. Also after the events of Tukayyid (For the Inner Sphere) the Inner Sphere then broke into Civil War again because they have no Logical skills, and have about as much intelligence as their shoe size. Victor Davion ends up becoming a homicidal maniac, when his sister takes his thrown (Even though he said he never wanted to rule) and neglects his people leading to several Steiner captures and massacres on planets such as Kentaries IV, Carvor V, etc.

Short:
Victor (once good leader) becomes mass murderer
Clans dishonored permanetly
Inner Sphere Civil War for the one millionth time
Inner Sphere innocents massacred

So overall Tukayyid was a mistake for both sides as the Clan Wars before actually helped the Inner Sphere to work together (Tukayyid destroyed that). It was a mistake for the Clans because instead of doing what they came to do (create a working unified galaxy in the name of Kerensky), they quarreled and did their best to fight each other even when it could mean their downfall (and ended up do exactly that).

The entire battle led to more battles which in turn led to the murder of innocent beings who before were 100 times safer.

Did we read the same books? Where did Victor kill innocents? He took up arms not because his sister took the throne, but because she abused her power once there. Had she not gone all "If you don't love me you are the problem." He probably would have stayed with Omi happily ever after. Victor made pretty much the same decisions I would have, knowing what my sibling had done.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 07 November 2013 - 09:43 AM.

[LoPanShui]

ComGuard's Star League weaponry and mechs weren't really a secret to anyone. Before the War of 3039 ComStar traded Star League era mechs and tech to the Draconis Combine in exchange for the ability to place ComGuard forces on the HPGs. They also did it to screw over Hanse Davion's ambitions of doing to the Dracs what he did to the Cappelans. (Heir to the Dragon)

It's also mentioned in TRO 3039 that the ComGuard has Star League tech and weaponry that the houses want, but no one has the balls to try and take it from them for fear of ComStar initiating a blackout.

The ComGuard not only trained in simulators, but regularly piloted 'Mechs with Star League era technologies or even Star League era 'Mechs themselves.

[Sug]

Jaroth Corbett, on 07 November 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:

Where is that from please?

Whoops forgot to cite. It's all from Lost Destiny, chapter 27, right after Phelan's bloodname battle with that elemental that blew up the building. No specific page number as I'm going off of an electronic copy.

[Sug]

Naglinator, on 07 November 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Lol, how did ComStar win. How did the rebels win at the first battle of death star or at Endor? Good guys gotta win, plot logic be damned. The book series were transiting from clan invasion to the fed com wars(in less then 3 books!) so they wrote an easy out. Same way the silly WoB wars and the Jihad and the war of the reaving happened. They needed to sell new stuff so they decided to throw everything on it's head

Joseph Mallan, on 07 November 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

Depressing but true.

God I don't agree with that at all. There's no comparison between Ewoks throwing rocks at stormtroopers and Tukayyid. None of the books that covered Tukayyid ever gave me the feeling that Comstar's victory was some sort of implausible miracle. No one switched off their targeting computers and Han didn't come of of no where to save Comstar.

The Clanners got overconfindent, had never fought a large, long campaign, and just got outplayed. I don't even think the Diamond Sharks or Steel Vipers had even fought the IS before. Focht made the planet one big trap that took advantage of the Clans weakness.

CyclonerM, on 07 November 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

If the Clans had won and ruled the Sphere under their renewed Star League, very few people would adapt to these invaders' tradition, being so different "from those we left behind".
You would have had rebellions all over the IS, much like Rebels vs Empire, and you would have had anyway a massive guerrilla war with massive numbers of deads on both sides.

That's debatable. If the Clans had won on Tukayyid there would probably be a Trial to select an ilClan, Clan Wolf would most likely have won and they did not have the same trouble administering their worlds that the other clans did as they pretty much left everything alone save for disarming the planet.

I can't think of anything like a rebellion happening on any other planet except Turtle Bay off the top of my head but that happened because the Jags are ********.

Jakob Knight, on 07 November 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

True, but the Clans' naval assets were not a combined force, and the individual Clan navies had to also be deployed to defend their homeworlds against both Inner Sphere attack (unlikely, but possible) and the naval assets of Clans that hadn't sent all their warships to the Inner Sphere. By contrast, the Comguards were on defense and were throwing all they had into a last defense, so they had no reason to hold back any naval assets.

That and most of the invading clans focused on small units, mechs, elementals, and fighters. Plus ships like that were not included in the bidding for Tukayyid so they had no cause to bring any.

Joseph Mallan, on 07 November 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

Did we read the same books? Where did Victor kill innocents?

I think he read the version of the books that were published in the Lyran Alliance.

[Sug]

DavidHurricane, on 07 November 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

If you have ever played the Pictures of a Rebellion campaign, you'd know why Com Guard won...

Holy {Scrap} I had no idea there were any player made campaigns for mechcommander

[CyclonerM]

Sug, on 07 November 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

That's debatable. If the Clans had won on Tukayyid there would probably be a Trial to select an ilClan, Clan Wolf would most likely have won and they did not have the same trouble administering their worlds that the other clans did as they pretty much left everything alone save for disarming the planet.

I can't think of anything like a rebellion happening on any other planet except Turtle Bay off the top of my head but that happened because the Jags are ********.

If you walk in a street on a planet in the Free Rasalhague Republic, stop anyone and ask them: "Are you happy with Clan Wolf's rule of your world?" he is likely to reply: "Death to the invaders!". Yes they do not know the other Clans may have been worse but people loves in a particular way his freedom when it is menaced or they feel it has been stolen from them. Strange feeling, quiaff?

Quote

I think he read the version of the books that were published in the Lyran Alliance.

[Tyrnea Smurf]

The Com Guards won because the Blessed Blake - hallowed be his name, his will was done against the twisted unbelievers that call themselves Clansmen....

[dal10]

and to believe there was a person who didn't believe me when i claimed that people claimed that comstar's army was invented just so the clans didn't win.

[pbiggz]

Tyrnea Smurf, on 07 November 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

The Com Guards won because the Blessed Blake - hallowed be his name, his will was done against the twisted unbelievers that call themselves Clansmen....

Oh good... a blakist...

I spent enough time killing you in mechassault 1... mind you, there were no celestial series omni mechs or battle armor, no cyborg hate robot precentors, and at least 1 fictional (but fun) assault mech...

Now that I think of it, aside from mechassault i've never had a chance to REALLY stomp some word of blake. Look out for me in 3067, i'm gonna ruin your nuclear armed day.

[990Dreams]

Sug, on 07 November 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Holy {Scrap} I had no idea there were any player made campaigns for mechcommander

Wolfman X though.

[Crook]

Continuing my Battletech education:

What outside threat did the wardens believe they were there to protect the IS from? That seems very curioius to me given how the battletech universe works.

[Bongfu]

Could be that the Comguards had their own "Wolf's Dragoons" to gain experience. Also, its those engagements we don't know about that could have given them experience. Afterall, the Comguards were organized to protect the "cult mechanicum" (to bring in a 40k reference that is drawn from Battletech and Asimov). The HPG is a powerful tool, so it is possible there were many attempts to seize it that the Comguards were able to deploy and beat with their superior technology.

The other theory is, well the writers wanted someone mysterious to win and develop a mystery that would keep us hooked on the series for a long time.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Crook, on 07 November 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

Continuing my Battletech education:

What outside threat did the wardens believe they were there to protect the IS from? That seems very curioius to me given how the battletech universe works.

They never could answer because it is all nonsense.




The same verse of the Remembrance they use to "prove" we should all be Wardens, is the same verse I use to prove we should all be Crusaders.

[pbiggz]

Jaroth Corbett, on 07 November 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

They never could answer because it is all nonsense.
The same verse of the Remembrance they use to "prove" we should all be Wardens, is the same verse I use to prove we should all be Crusaders.

The Warden Wolves are the true children of Kerensky, not the dezgra crusaders, who will inevitably, in their blind zeal, destroy themselves.

[Sug]

CyclonerM, on 07 November 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

If you walk in a street on a planet in the Free Rasalhague Republic, stop anyone and ask them: "Are you happy with Clan Wolf's rule of your world?" he is likely to reply: "Death to the invaders!"

What do you base that on? Have there been any books featuring worlds and populations behind the truce line? The only Rasalhagues I can think of have all been displaced to other planets so of course they would be hostile towards the Clans. I have no frame of reference for any on a Clan held world.

Jaroth Corbett, on 07 November 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

The same verse of the Remembrance they use to "prove" we should all be Wardens, is the same verse I use to prove we should all be Crusaders.

Sword and Fire chapter 4!

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky said:

"Perhaps, one day, should mankind step back from the brink of the abyss, we, or our children, or our children's children will return, to once more serve and protect and guide the Star League in mankind's quest for the stars."

Regardless I think the Clan with the guy's actual descendants in it might have the right idea.

[Helbrecht]

CyclonerM, on 06 November 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Nah, just tell me in which novel have you read that passage.

From Sarna:

Spoiler

From "Wolves on the border"

Spoiler

[/size][/font]
Wolves on the border, Epilogue.

My apologies for the OT but this seemed an interesting thing to talk about.

Warrior riposte from the warrior trilogy.

[Helbrecht]

3rdworld, on 06 November 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

Comstar pledged 144 regiments to the battle. A battlemech battalion is 108 mechs and a regiment consists of 3-5 battalions. So they may have used anywhere from ~50,000-75,000 mechs. (assuming it was all mechs, some of it would have been aerospace / armor / infantry assets).

If I remember correctly Comstar lost some 50 regiments in the battle.

clan Jade falcon used 3 galaxies in the battle which would have equaled 3-5 regiments per, so around 15 regiments

Most clans fought against overwhelming numbers and basically lost due to bidding before the battle ever started.

slightly off on your numbers bro and your facts.

1: comguards dont actually organize like the houses. but in this battle they went against thier normal doctrines to execute the plan.

2: 1 lance is 4 mechs
3 Lances is a company
3 companies is a battalion
3 battalions is a regiment ( with HS company attached usualy ) full strenght mech numbers is 124


3: the comguards had roughly 50 mech regiments on tukkayid