75 replies to this topic

[XX Sulla XX]

So from what I can tell they had a problem with Victor jump snipers. So to combat that they have reduced jump jet turn speed to 70% of mech turn speed and then this week they have reduced the Victor turning speed and torso movement by another -20% and reduced arm movement by -10%. So how is this addressing the jump sniping? I know it hurts close in brawling with my Victors but best I could tell that was not a problem.

[Wintersdark]

It wasn't addressing jump sniping. It was addressing the fact that the Victor was much too agile for an assault.

[XX Sulla XX]

That was my entire point. The agility was not a problem in the game it was the jump sniping. Its not like Victors were over powered brawlers. The turning speed of the jump jets from last time alwready made a HUGE difference in how they play as brawlers.

[zztophat]

It hurt convergence on the dragon slayer, as far as having ACs in the arm and PPCs in the torso. Now your flying jump shots take a hair longer for the arm and side torso to line up.

Other than that... it seems fine to me, a bit more sluggish but hardly broken.

[PanzerMagier]

yea they were best allrounders in 12man's. and god the way they brawled. My atlas cringed at the sight of them. Waaay too jumpy for an assault. Even the highlanders nodded in agreement.

It had to be done.

[DONTOR]

Im not a poptarter myself but nerfing the arm movement could make reflexive shots / snapshots more difficult, im not sure if 10% is even very noticeable or not, Ill have to give it a try. As for decreasing torso speed it just makes the Victor as a whole worse upclose which doesnt seem like a big deal given how insanely good it was upclose. I use my Victors as fast highly armored brawlers and I dont think the changes will hurt them too much. I think it will just make them less effective against lights or fast mediums.

[Daekar]

Wintersdark, on 18 March 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

It wasn't addressing jump sniping. It was addressing the fact that the Victor was much too agile for an assault.

This. Leave the Victor its jump sniping, and make it more vulnerable to flanking operations - exactly what SHOULD happen to a big mech like that. People seem to think that the Victor should play like a mid-weight heavy with more armor and guns, which is wrong. It's an assault mech - a huge monster that is so heavy with armor and guns that it is slow to turn and maneuver. Time to come to terms with the appropriate roles for different mech weights.

[Bishop Steiner]

and so now I am confirmed back to driving my ShadowHawks and Griffins, since as always in trying to "fix" the problem, PGIs bandaid strategy affects everything BUT the intended problem.

But instead of fixing the disease, they will continue to try to cover up the symptoms.

The poptart issues will NEVER be resolved without addressing Convergence and Hard Points. Doesn't matter HOW they address them (CoF when jumping and running?), but as long as weapons are perfectly converged pinpoint damage, the meta will NOT change.

DONTOR, on 18 March 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

Im not a poptarter myself but nerfing the arm movement could make reflexive shots / snapshots more difficult, im not sure if 10% is even very noticeable or not, Ill have to give it a try. As for decreasing torso speed it just makes the Victor as a whole worse upclose which doesnt seem like a big deal given how insanely good it was upclose. I use my Victors as fast highly armored brawlers and I dont think the changes will hurt them too much. I think it will just make them less effective against lights or fast mediums.

It does affect Poptarters, at least on the rare instances someone actually gets the gumption to flank them. Problem is, it affects those of us who used them to Brawl, even more.

[FupDup]

If assaults in general seem too agile...why not do a pass of the entire weight class? Addressing them one at a time reeks of whack-a-mole balancing. "Oh hey, this one mech here is starting to become an issue, let's nerf him and him alone without examining the core gameplay mechanics behind it."

An agility nerf probably has little effect when you're bunny hopping behind a rock, but in a brawl--that tactic we should be trying to encourage--it'll probably hurt quite a bit. The nerf gun has missed its target once again.

[Cimarb]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 March 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

and so now I am confirmed back to driving my ShadowHawks and Griffins, since as always in trying to "fix" the problem, PGIs bandaid strategy affects everything BUT the intended problem.

But instead of fixing the disease, they will continue to try to cover up the symptoms.

The poptart issues will NEVER be resolved without addressing Convergence and Hard Points. Doesn't matter HOW they address them (CoF when jumping and running?), but as long as weapons are perfectly converged pinpoint damage, the meta will NOT change.

It does affect Poptarters, at least on the rare instances someone actually gets the gumption to flank them. Problem is, it affects those of us who used them to Brawl, even more.

The issue isn't about jump jets, and never has been. The issue is about being able to place 30-40+ damage instantly in a single spot on a target. Jump jets just happened to complement that delivery method the best, but they were a symptom, not the cause. Convergence is one way to address multiple weapon systems being used together, but is also just a symptom, not the cause.

The root cause of all these symptoms is front-loaded damage. Being able to put 10-20 points of damage from a single weapon in one spot means everything that makes it easier to deliver that damage without recourse (jump jets) or mass them together (convergence) exponentially better.

The way to prove this: If you take a Victor or Highlander and only allow them to mount missiles or lasers (spread and duration damage delivery, respectively), you would have no jump sniper issue and the convergence issue would only matter if the target was standing still.

If fixing one thing removes all other symptoms, you now know the cure.

[General Taskeen]

So why don't they make jumpjets do what they should do, evasion and such, as in jumping in all directions for the actual listed Meters they are supposed to jump. You know, instead of hovering in the air, their hovering ability implies best use is "jump snipe" instead of "0km/h+Press D+Jump Key = Jump at Walking Speed To Max Distance" to quickly jump sideways into cover.

Edited by General Taskeen, 18 March 2014 - 12:59 PM.

[DONTOR]

FupDup, on 18 March 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

If assaults in general seem too agile...why not do a pass of the entire weight class? Addressing them one at a time reeks of whack-a-mole balancing. "Oh hey, this one mech here is starting to become an issue, let's nerf him and him alone without examining the core gameplay mechanics behind it."

An agility nerf probably has little effect when you're bunny hopping behind a rock, but in a brawl--that tactic we should be trying to encourage--it'll probably hurt quite a bit. The nerf gun has missed its target once again.

Because assults in general dont seem too agile, its mostly just the Jump Jet capable ones. Not anymore though it would seem.

[XX Sulla XX]

Main problem is they seem to be doing it more by class intead of weight. The cataphract 3D feels unchanged and is only 10 tons less. So ya I get the jump jet changes 100%. But that alone made the Victor MUCH less agile. Todays changes seem to be overkill.

[Ngamok]

FupDup, on 18 March 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

If assaults in general seem too agile...why not do a pass of the entire weight class? Addressing them one at a time reeks of whack-a-mole balancing. "Oh hey, this one mech here is starting to become an issue, let's nerf him and him alone without examining the core gameplay mechanics behind it."

An agility nerf probably has little effect when you're bunny hopping behind a rock, but in a brawl--that tactic we should be trying to encourage--it'll probably hurt quite a bit. The nerf gun has missed its target once again.

Well, outside of the HGNs and the VTRs, which others are too agile? The AWS has it's problems. The STK turns like a slow boat. The AS7 also slow. The BLRs are about average. Have not played the BNCs yet.

[Bishop Steiner]

Cimarb, on 18 March 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

The issue isn't about jump jets, and never has been. The issue is about being able to place 30-40+ damage instantly in a single spot on a target. Jump jets just happened to complement that delivery method the best, but they were a symptom, not the cause. Convergence is one way to address multiple weapon systems being used together, but is also just a symptom, not the cause.

The root cause of all these symptoms is front-loaded damage. Being able to put 10-20 points of damage from a single weapon in one spot means everything that makes it easier to deliver that damage without recourse (jump jets) or mass them together (convergence) exponentially better.

The way to prove this: If you take a Victor or Highlander and only allow them to mount missiles or lasers (spread and duration damage delivery, respectively), you would have no jump sniper issue and the convergence issue would only matter if the target was standing still.

If fixing one thing removes all other symptoms, you now know the cure.

Front loaded damage is also not the issue. Having differing damage mechanics is a good thing. It's having multiple different weapons hitting one location with all the front loaded damage from those multiple weapons. A PPC or AC20 SHOULD do big damage, to one area. You certainly pay the Weight and or Heat (which also usually means more weight in DHS) to carry those weapons.

Yet few people cry about an Atlas nailing them with their ac20 or Gauss. If front loaded damage was the problem, this would not be true. People DO complain about BoomJagers landing TWO ac20 shots to the exact same location, while running. Or 4 PPCs hitting in perfect unison.

AKA, the issue is NOT front loaded damage anymore than it is heatsinks. It is, and always has been, as stated, convergence and unlimited hardpoints.

[Malleus011]

They're very sluggish now, and feel less like a Victor should ... and of course, the 'fix' does nothing to address pop-tart sniping.

So it's a typical PGI misfix.

[Cimarb]

FupDup, on 18 March 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

If assaults in general seem too agile...why not do a pass of the entire weight class? Addressing them one at a time reeks of whack-a-mole balancing. "Oh hey, this one mech here is starting to become an issue, let's nerf him and him alone without examining the core gameplay mechanics behind it."

An agility nerf probably has little effect when you're bunny hopping behind a rock, but in a brawl--that tactic we should be trying to encourage--it'll probably hurt quite a bit. The nerf gun has missed its target once again.

Assaults in general are not too agile. Victors, and possibly Highlanders, are the only ones with above-average agility.

Also, while I am all for brawlers, as they make sniping and LRM boating immensely more rewarding for me, saying that is what we should be encouraging is incorrect. In no way would any organized military encourage urban or "brawling" type of combat. You deliver the most effective damage at the greatest range possible to eliminate the threat before they are capable of returning that damage. Snipers, artillery, air support, and long range missiles are all the first option for any military operation. Only once the majority of the opposition has been suppressed do you even consider sending in your ground troops to clean up and occupy the area. This isn't fight club, this is war.

[Sinthrow]

the jump jets got a small nerf. so not only do they require more jump jets the recharge rate was reduced. now most of the assaults have similar agility. it is a simple push for balancing of the weight classes.
now there may be more reasons to take something other the the assault mech

[FupDup]

DONTOR, on 18 March 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

Because assults in general dont seem too agile, its mostly just the Jump Jet capable ones. Not anymore though it would seem.

Since the JJ rework to slow down the turning rate while in mid-air, JJs no longer boost agility. They give some vertical mobility, but vertical mobility =/= agility. Agility is being fast, responsive, spry, etc. etc. JJs don't give any of those qualities (...anymore, that is). They just let you go up and down in the air.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ngamok, on 18 March 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Well, outside of the HGNs and the VTRs, which others are too agile? The AWS has it's problems. The STK turns like a slow boat. The AS7 also slow. The BLRs are about average. Have not played the BNCs yet.

Haven't fully unlocked them, but while La Malinche moves similar to a BLR, I find the others feel like a Stalker, in fact, I think against Light Mechs, I would prefer the Stalker.