373 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

There are factors in how well you can predict the actions of others.
Just tonight i was in a match firing LRM's (in my C1, haven't used that in a while ) at a target when a friendly Jenner ran past me being chased by a Streak-Cat.
For a second i considered firing at the Cat to help the Jenner but realized that:
1) The Jenner was running in a straight line.
2) They were a few seconds from a hill.
I predicted the Jenner was going to die and i'd lose lock on the Cat when they went behind the hill. He died.

If i had been using FLD weapons i wouldn't have even had to think about those circumstances and i could have maybe been able to save the Jenner, but with LRM's i knew there was no chance and i would have wasted ammo and reduced the damage i was doing to my original target.

I predicted what would happen and was right.

I haz magiks?!

On another note...I was hit by LRM's tonight! I'm so happy!

Edited by Wolfways, 03 April 2014 - 06:27 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

I'm ending this conversation:

I'm right, you're all wrong, and I like pie!

[Asmudius Heng]

Trauglodyte, on 03 April 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

and I like pie!

No you dont!

[Roland]

Pie is a low skill dessert.

[Prezimonto]

uugg.

I <3 you all. Now kiss and make up so we can go back to alternately bashing PGI as a whole and Paul and Russ specifically, mixed with a healthy does of old age cantankerousness.

Just the fact that a 4 or 5 page argument can still be spawned tells me you all still care about this game, is that why all the riled feelings?

[Harathan]

Wolfways, on 03 April 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

Are you implying that PGI would deliberately screw over BT fans who like certain mechs/weapon systems? Noooo....they're making a BT/MW game, they said so...

Are they? What values and mechanics in the game currently remotely resemble their BT counterparts?

[Trauglodyte]

Why must you hurt me, Roland? I know that a second on the lips, a lifetime on the hips. But why must you continue to shame me like that?!?

[Bishop Steiner]

Vandruis, on 03 April 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

Have you guys tried using LRM's in a competitive set up with proper screen and good cover.

LRM's in coordination will SHRED another team.

At my ELO as well, a 4 man LRM/spotter team will slaughter pugs consistently.

any weapon set up, with coordination, on a 4 man premade, almost assures slaughter of PUGs.

LRMs in 12 man? Not so much. Range limitations, amount of resources devoted to making them work, necessity of Spotters, Flight Time, general lack of ability to defend self at close range, all lead to them being a poor cost to effect alternative in 12 man. You set up a 12 man around LRMs, I set one up around Poptarts with ER PPC, Gauss and ACs and shred you before you ever get in LRM range. I kill your spotters, your LRMs are hamstrung. While your Lights are spotting my main force, my wolfpack shreds your big fat, slow and ponderous LRM boats.

LRms are useful as a support weapon. In any decent competition level, they are useless for anything more.

[Dock Steward]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 April 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

any weapon set up, with coordination, on a 4 man premade, almost assures slaughter of PUGs.

LRMs in 12 man? Not so much. Range limitations, amount of resources devoted to making them work, necessity of Spotters, Flight Time, general lack of ability to defend self at close range, all lead to them being a poor cost to effect alternative in 12 man. You set up a 12 man around LRMs, I set one up around Poptarts with ER PPC, Gauss and ACs and shred you before you ever get in LRM range. I kill your spotters, your LRMs are hamstrung. While your Lights are spotting my main force, my wolfpack shreds your big fat, slow and ponderous LRM boats.

LRms are useful as a support weapon. In any decent competition level, they are useless for anything more.

Eh, we've run them in 12 mans. They do okay. It's a change up from the meta at any rate.

[Bishop Steiner]

Dock Steward, on 03 April 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

Eh, we've run them in 12 mans. They do okay. It's a change up from the meta at any rate.

OK i s far from a ringing endorsement. I would say, with the right crew, any set up can do OK. But it ain't like they are world changers.

[Dock Steward]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 April 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

OK i s far from a ringing endorsement. I would say, with the right crew, any set up can do OK. But it ain't like they are world changers.

They shake things up a bit. Gives the Scouts a few new things to do. There's a good reason to run Light Hunters. Brawlers have a new purpose. Yeah, you have to build an entire team around them, and it's a risk that sometimes pays off by getting you rolled by a fast blob, but hey, it's different. Kinda.

[Bishop Steiner]

Dock Steward, on 03 April 2014 - 08:36 PM, said:

They shake things up a bit. Gives the Scouts a few new things to do. There's a good reason to run Light Hunters. Brawlers have a new purpose. Yeah, you have to build an entire team around them, and it's a risk that sometimes pays off by getting you rolled by a fast blob, but hey, it's different. Kinda.

Agreed. It can be similar in a decent PUG match, too. I find, since I don't wet my panties at the sight of LRMs, that I have a lot more interesting things than watching "Pop goes the Cataphract" now. But LRMs are far from challenging, let alone becoming, the Meta. They do, on occasion, mute the Meta just a tad, and I am OK with that, for sure!

[Roadkill]

Asmudius Heng, on 03 April 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

This is what we are arguing about ... not a general sense of best decisions made ... you have stated in a rather absolute manner that all lost locks are a matter of skill of the LRM firer when the actions of others that are impossible for you to predict can effect the outcome.

No, I haven't. I've been very specific. You might be assuming that, but I haven't stated that.

You are correct for the situation that you just described. Neither you nor Roland is correct for the situation that he described, because he didn't describe it as fully as you described yours. Roland left out sufficient detail that you cannot assume that the skill I'm talking about wasn't relevant.

Look, Roland is clearly desperate to prove that any skill that LRM users have can't possibly be unique to LRMs. He apparently can't stand the thought of LRMs actually being skillful weapons on their own way.

I have no idea why he feels this way, because he's clearly a very good player. He's good no matter what weapons he's using. He could probably even be called superior with some weapons. So why it matters so much to him that LRMs can't possibly be called skillful weapons in their own right is beyond me.

I recognize all kinds of skill, and that includes the skills that are unique to being a master of LRMs.

[Roadkill]

Roland, on 03 April 2014 - 05:18 PM, said:

Maybe he didn't have any obvious signs of being drunk.

Or even better, maybe he wasn't drunk at all. Maybe he just had a stroke, and spazzed out and slammed into you.

Your predictive &quot;skill&quot; isn't lacking in that case, right? You don't lack skill for failing to predict that he was going to have a stroke and suddenly slam his car into you from the side, right?

You do realize that strokes aren't instantaneous, right? You could have noticed he was having a stroke and taken evasive action.

Go ahead... suggest a heart attack instead...

Or... or... MAYBE HE GETS HIT BY A METEORITE!!!

Look, you can come up with some scenario where the predictive skill that LRM users use is irrelevant. That doesn't make it any less a skill, or any less necessary to be truly exceptional with LRMs. I can come up with scenarios where twitch aiming skill is irrelevant for a FLD weapon user, too. Does that mean twitch aiming isn't a skill?

I'm still not sure what your point is here.

[Roadkill]

Roland, on 03 April 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

There's nothing in that situation which would suggest he's going to just change targets... He's not being fired on. He's got a clear line of sight.. It's a perfect situation. Firing your missiles in that situation is the right thing to do.

There's a lot that's not in that description, such as anything at all about the situation near the spotter. Basically all you described is the situation around the target.

Part of my point is that the situation around the spotter is very important to the LRM firer, and that keeping track of that situation is a skill unique to LRM users because FLD users don't need a spotter.

You make the assumption that since nothing was said about it, there was nothing to know. I make the assumption that since nothing was said about it, the LRM firer wasn't paying close enough attention. Which is then proven by your follow up that the spotter targeted someone else to check their armor. AHA! So there was an enemy near enough to the spotter that they felt the need to check their armor.

Asmudius provided a more detailed example of a situation where this prediction skill isn't useful. I've never claimed that such a situation doesn't exist. I merely claim that the skill exists and is mostly unique to LRM users in the same way that twitch aiming skill is mostly unique to FLD (or any direct fire) users.

Trauglodyte, on 03 April 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

and I like pie!

The pie is a lie.

[Eglar]

Roadkill, on 03 April 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

Why not? Isn't predicting effects a skill?

[xXBagheeraXx]

The lrms were a bit too fast...I think now they are probably fine. When my average damge in my lrm mechs DOUBLED after the lrm buff? something was off. 800+ games in a stalker 5m that only packs 2 artemis 15's. Nobody talked about them much because they were honestly a bit balanced..if used poperly with spotters or a good Lrm driver that can spot his own stuff without getting the snot kicked out of them they were devastating. Speed+narc buff = LRM hell once again. Right now they are fast enough to clobber mechs that you only get partial locks on before they get into cover but not so fast where they are insta ****. they probably dont need to be touched AT ALL ANY MORE.

[Corwin Vickers]

Roland, on 03 April 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

I mean, no one here is really suggesting that getting a missile lock is anything other than trivial, right? While hitting a fast moving target at range with a weapon like a PPC is LESS trivial, right? Perhaps easier than various other games make hitting a target (although many other shooters just use hitscan weapons), but certainly harder than what is involved in getting a missile lock which is trivial.

Let's compare apples to apples.

Hitting a target with a PPC at long range is FAR easier than hitting a target with LRMs (not locked since we are making a direct comparison and the PPC did not have the benefit of a lock.)

I do fire LRMs without lock, mostly because of ECM and sometimes because I do not have time to wait for a lock and the chance of someone being in that spot by the time they reach that spot is high enough to make sense to take the shot.

This is clearly a case of LRMs being a higher skill weapon than FLD because the LRMs travel so much slower and in an arc.

Roadkill, on 03 April 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

No, I'm not. It isn't about control. It's about the skill required to understand what you do control, understand the likely actions that those you don't control are going to take, and make correct decisions based on your understanding.

Asmudius Heng, on 03 April 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

Now come on .... this is a bit rich.

You are claiming you can predict how your team mates will act and think and how they will hold locks and believe that is a skill?

I know I'm not the only person who keeps track of the names and skill/style/mech choice and build of other players right? Information like this helps me predict other players actions. I also watch my own team mates using Q and B to predict what they are going to do. Most good players are going to be doing this.

Ecliptor, on 03 April 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

your e-peen is thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis big!

Obvious LPL user.

I'm serious, I see a guy with 2 LB10X and a LPL I might just kill him myself so that he doesn't drool on the floor and cause another team mate to slip,




And while I am for changing LRMs to make them useful, I do not use LRMs, not even a little, not for over a week now, because they are useless.

...again

[Eglar]

Corwin Vickers, on 04 April 2014 - 12:22 AM, said:

Let's compare apples to apples.

Hitting a target with a PPC at long range is FAR easier than hitting a target with LRMs (not locked since we are making a direct comparison and the PPC did not have the benefit of a lock.)

I do fire LRMs without lock, mostly because of ECM and sometimes because I do not have time to wait for a lock and the chance of someone being in that spot by the time they reach that spot is high enough to make sense to take the shot.

This is clearly a case of LRMs being a higher skill weapon than FLD because the LRMs travel so much slower and in an arc.

For real?

So.. lower the arc, make LRMs faster, Increase their range and remove their locks.. o wait D-:
Wasn't that a ballistic weapon?

If you were blindshooting your LRMs all day they'd be the most useless weapons around, I don't think anyone can argue on that. ECM? Here's a tip: unless you're driving the CPT-A1 or Jenner-Oxide: -1 Ton Of Ammo +1 Tag.

Corwin Vickers, on 04 April 2014 - 12:22 AM, said:

I know I'm not the only person who keeps track of the names and skill/style/mech choice and build of other players right? Information like this helps me predict other players actions. I also watch my own team mates using Q and B to predict what they are going to do. Most good players are going to be doing this.

You can see your teammates open the Map? That's new.

Ecliptor, on 03 April 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

your e-peen is thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis big!

my e-peen demands #public-elo.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roland, on 03 April 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

Sure, but we're playing giant robots, not shooting at human targets.

Giant is situational... At 500M on a computer screen... That Giant robot is only marginally bigger than a MAN SIZE silhouette!

Harathan, on 03 April 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

/grenade

Aren't LRM systems primarily meant to be *support* weapons?

Like Artillery? Have you seen how effective Artillery is on a battlefield?