373 replies to this topic

[SethAbercromby]

Lykaon, on 12 April 2014 - 12:23 AM, said:

Now here is the funny thing about this discussion.

LRMs are excellent as support weapons used as mobile artillery.

Back in closed beta LRM carriers were one of the more reliable ways to suppress the (at the time king of direct fire damage) Gausscats.

A gausskitty would try to find a nice sniping point and land kill after kill to counter this you rain volley after volley of LRMs on them or if you had the luxury of a spotter KILL THEM with LRMs.

LRMs should be excellent at area denial and suppression and should be capable of killing a target as a stand alone weapon system or the threat of area denial is meaningless.

There is a reason mobile artillery doesn't fire jellybeans.

If mobile artillery never produced significant damage it would be ignored and ineffective.LRMs must possess killing capacity to validate their use.

I've been running a LRM50 Catapult C4 with TAG just yesterday and those who didn't run for cover died one way or another even when I started to just tag priority targets after both my arms got shot off. LRMs might benefit from a damage buff, but I remember that one time their splash radius got upped and they suddenly dropped 'Mechs like birds hit with a cannonball. Someone had already stated that LRMs simply because of their nature can become ludicrously OP or horribly underwhelming with just minor tweaks. Finding the soft spot is immensely difficult. Also, MechWarrior uses very small missiles compared to modern rocket artillery (the new Russian 9A52-4 Tornado uses missiles that weight up to 800kg). At 180 missiles per ton, each missile only weights 5.6 kg, which accounts for both the multistage-system, fuel, a guidance computer, hull and explosive material. If you add everything up, they actually have quite reasonable explosive power for their weight.

EDIT: Iooking at SRMs and SSRMs the same way, both SRMs and SSRMs come in 100 missiles per ton, which means they weight in at exactly 10kg. SRMs are unguided and don't require a multistage-system, which saves space for fuel and explosive material. Being designed for 270m range, they only carry a fraction of the fuel required to propel an LRM for distances up to 1000m so they have much more space and leftover tonnage for explosive materials. SSRMs have a guidance system equipped, but they also travel at a slower speed compared to SRMs so they save some fuel that way to make space for the guidance systems.

Looking at the numbers, it doesn't make sense for SSRMs to deal more damage per missile than SRMs (aside from the whole guided vs. unguided thing) so there's some fixing needed.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 12 April 2014 - 06:10 AM.

[M T]

Corwin Vickers, on 29 March 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

AFS (Anti Flaming System) Engaged!


I know people are saying that LRMs were fine before the recent speed buff but was I the only guy who totally wrote a player off as being useless as soon as they said "LRM boat here, hold locks!"?

LRMs were not discussed before the speed buff because they were total garbage and have been for a long, long time (and still are.)



Let's analyze what changed:

LRMs had a speed of 120 m/s
LRM speed increased to 175 m/s


That's it. they now go 45% faster. No damage increase, no arc change (despite people swearing they are now making 90 degree turns)


LRMs still have a minimum range
LRMs are still extremely vulnerable to shutdown by ECM
LRMs still has AMS as a counter (no other weapon system has to worry about it's own seperate counter)
LRMs still fly in a large arc even when your target is right in front of you.
LRMs still have a DEDICATED WARNING SYSTEM that verbally and visually warns you that someone is targeting you.
LRMs and their ammo are still extremely heavy.



A PPCs projectile speed is 1500 m/s
An AC5s projectile speed is 1300

We're talking 10X the speed with none of the problems that LRMs have (except PPC minimum and that can be fixed with an ERPPC)

What would happen if you slowed PPCs and ACs down to 120 m/s and put in point defense shields, visual/verbal warnings, and 1.5 ton systems that shut them down?




LRMs are pretty scarce a week later (at least at the Elo I play at.) Everyone is back to PPCs and autocannons.


A weapon system that requires lots of users on your team using it to be effective, support mechs with NARC and TAG helping get locks, and that can be countered into uselessness by AMS and ECM is a useless system.


Go ahead and nerf the speed. LRMs are already irrelevant. I see a guy say "LRM boat here, keep locks!" and I think "F___ that guy."


LRMs need not just a buff but a fundamental change.

You realise that ppcs and stuff need actual aiming and reflexes skill right? Every LRM lover here probably has a very bad pc or very low FPS, or are simply,bad at aiming games. Only reason to use LRMs and have fun i guess. who doesnt want to achieve some nice damage without doing mich for it.

Yeah yeah th story about positioning skill etc, that goes even with any othr weapon, so its no excuse.
LRMs need a nerf, and bettr yet banned from this game.

Edited by Marctraider, 12 April 2014 - 06:03 AM.

[Whoops]

Ban LRMs from MechWarrior? You're joking. If you just want a twitch shooter, I hear Hawken is pretty decent at that.

LRMs need a change in their targeting mechanic to make them more difficult to fire without LoS (say, only with TAG or NARC). That would mean dedicated spotters for indirect fire, or risking themselves with LoS because the FLD pinpoints have longer range and higher damage potential (per hit section, per shot). But getting rid of them altogether would remove one of the core systems from the IP. What if they removed ACs or PPCs instead? LRMs as they are would be less missed by a lot of the community, but if they were to actually balance the targeting, they'd be in the niche they were designed for in TT.

Some people do want to achieve nice damage without doing much for it. They don't all use LRMs, however. ERPPCs with the Advanced Zoom module does it just as well. HITSCAN weapons require very little aiming skill. I'm one of those "simply bad at aiming games" people, and I have no problem hitting with energy weapons in this game.

The only system that currently takes reflex and "actual aiming" skill are ballistic weapons, because you have to account for lead times, which vary depending on how fast your target is moving. But if we removed any weapon system that didn't require the sort of skill you're talking about, all we'd be left with were ACs and Gauss (and Machine Guns, but I don't really count them in this discussion).

[Lykaon]

Marctraider, on 12 April 2014 - 06:02 AM, said:

You realise that ppcs and stuff need actual aiming and reflexes skill right? Every LRM lover here probably has a very bad pc or very low FPS, or are simply,bad at aiming games. Only reason to use LRMs and have fun i guess. who doesnt want to achieve some nice damage without doing mich for it.

Yeah yeah th story about positioning skill etc, that goes even with any othr weapon, so its no excuse.
LRMs need a nerf, and bettr yet banned from this game.

<engage sarcasm mode>

You are 100% correct LRMs are not real weapon systems at all it's not like they take up crit space and tonnage on a chassis and as such should be relegated to the pile of useless garbage in MWo along with Raven 4xs and command consoles.

or,if you prefer....

I used an LRM boat once the second the game launched my mech went all auto pilot on me and manuvered to a perfect location and missiles suddenly sprayed out of my mech killing everything I didn't need to worry about heat or ammo or range or a pesky 180m min range or trying to hit targets with the slowest moving projectile in the game and of course I'm grateful that there isn't anything like missile lock warnings or some sort of anti missile system in game.Oh and best of all there's nothing in game that will make LRMs 100% useless.If there was something like that then my automatic piloting and shooting kills everything always no talent skilless LRM boat wouldn't be total over poweredness.

Now the reality of the situation.

ECM had for a very long time removed LRMs from the game so the direct fire front loading damage boats rose to ultimate power.There was no means of preventing free movement of these builds no means of area denial that didn't result in exposure to incoming fire.

The game became a matter of getting to point A first and spamming alpha strikes as the enemy poked out of cover briefly trying to do the same.It's dull it's static and painfully predictable.

Any one with a head for strategy and tactics can predict the match outcome after the first 10 seconds of engagment at least 75% of the time.it's that dull to play alpha spammer poptart online for me.I can with near 3/4th accuracy determine the outcome of a battle as soon as the bullets start to fly (well in Pug matches anyhow)

If you think LRMs are so potent and OP'ed then simply put you lack the ability for lateral thinking.You lack an ability to adapt to a different type of situation beyond alpha spamming from cover and playing hidey peeky.

If you can not survive LRMs with...

Numerous cover options
ECM
AMS
Missile lock warnings
Speed to move away from the slowest projectile in the game.
180m minimum range

then frankly you arn't all that good at the non spamming aspects of this game.

[Corwin Vickers]

Marctraider, on 12 April 2014 - 06:02 AM, said:

You realise that ppcs and stuff need actual aiming and reflexes skill right? Every LRM lover here probably has a very bad pc or very low FPS, or are simply,bad at aiming games. Only reason to use LRMs and have fun i guess. who doesnt want to achieve some nice damage without doing mich for it.

Yeah yeah th story about positioning skill etc, that goes even with any othr weapon, so its no excuse.
LRMs need a nerf, and bettr yet banned from this game.

I have a very good computer and run 60fps at 1080p full detail. I play almost exclusively PPsC, ACs, and lasers. I do not use LRMs or SRMs. I am frequently top damage or top kills in matches.

That you believe LRMs are good or easy pretty much tells me all I need to know about your skill.

I stated that LRMs are shit, they are crap, crapola, useless. We all know SRMs are useless as well.

Having played Battletech since the 80s on an Apple II, the board game, and probably the best implementation of battletech ever, the 3056 MUSE, as well as every game since then, I know that this is not Battletech.

There is no good reason for a whole class of weapon system to be useless in this game. That so many of you see no problem with "banning" missiles from the game just shows that you have no knowledge of what battletech is supposed to be and it's sad. I pity you.

You have grown up with your participation trophies, and your call of duty 360 no scope jump sniper bullshit and the minute someone requires you to use your brain you come to the forums yelling "nerf!"

I feel sorry you cannot see Battletech for the subtle, thinking mans game that I and some others who have played better incarnations of this game know.

Really, there is already a mech game out there for people like you and it's called Hawken.

LRMs should be buffed and completely changed so that they are useful weapons for direct combat.


There are "support" weapons in battletech. They are called Long Tom, Arrow IV, Thunder mines, warships, dropships, and aerospace.

LRMs ARE NOT SUPPORT WEAPONS IN BATTLETECH.

The Devs keep making bad design decisions and it's because of people like you. You are the reason we are stuck with this steaming pile.

[Wolfways]

Marctraider, on 12 April 2014 - 06:02 AM, said:

You realise that ppcs and stuff need actual aiming and reflexes skill right? Every LRM lover here probably has a very bad pc or very low FPS, or are simply,bad at aiming games. Only reason to use LRMs and have fun i guess. who doesnt want to achieve some nice damage without doing mich for it.

Yeah yeah th story about positioning skill etc, that goes even with any othr weapon, so its no excuse.
LRMs need a nerf, and bettr yet banned from this game.

If i want a game where i have to think about what i'm doing and also risk having my weapons made useless (dependent on the opposing team) i'll play my Catapult-C1.
If i want an enjoyable, laid-back game where i have to do some work for high damage/kills (I'm not a good player) i'll play my Catapult-K2.
If i just can't really be bothered and just want to slaughter the enemy i'll play my Jagermech-JM6-S.

All my mechs have their stock weapons.

But thanks for the laugh.

[Bishop Steiner]

Marctraider, on 12 April 2014 - 06:02 AM, said:

You realise that ppcs and stuff need actual aiming and reflexes skill right? Every LRM lover here probably has a very bad pc or very low FPS, or are simply,bad at aiming games. Only reason to use LRMs and have fun i guess. who doesnt want to achieve some nice damage without doing mich for it.

Yeah yeah th story about positioning skill etc, that goes even with any othr weapon, so its no excuse.
LRMs need a nerf, and bettr yet banned from this game.

wow, someone is really impressed with their epeen.

Name the time and place boy. I'll happily own you with any category of weapon. Because unlike you, obviously, I understand the requisite skill required by ALL weapon classes to actually be more than a metahumper.

Learn to use cover, learn to use tactics, and heck , just learn to think. Your post is almost Darwin Award worthy.

[King Arthur IV]

just had a few games with a lrm boat. im able to do 500+ damage but its very ineffective, the spread is humongous. every match is on edge cause im so ineffective.

then i play a ac/ppc mech and i was able to down 2-4 mechs a match with only 300+ damage and games were so loop sided.

i use to love lrm back when arty had a tigher grouping if you got your own LOS. *risk and reward*

Edited by King Arthur IV, 14 April 2014 - 02:07 PM.

[SethAbercromby]

King Arthur IV, on 12 April 2014 - 11:00 PM, said:

just had a few games with a lrm boat. im able to do 500+ damage but its very ineffective, the spread is humongous. every match is on edge cause im so ineffective.

[...]

i use to love lrm back when arty had a tigher grouping if you got your own LOS.

LRMs should have a wide spread because otherwise they would be too effective at killing 'Mechs and we've seen how that turned out when everyone and their dog ran a LRM boat because they could devastate anything. But yeah, if you can get your own LOS and tag, it would be nice to get some nice, tight grouping in there but again, if it's too much, metahumpers will abuse the crap out of that, like they do with pinpoint alphas right now.

[M T]

Hahaha I gotta love all the responses

/trollmode deactivated



Anyway now to be realistic, LRMs are fine as they are now. Lets get on to the real issues with this game.

- SRMs totally worthless, bad hit registration, they are relatively slow and hard to use especially on fast moving mechs, ok registration will be fixed soon if we'd have to believe the devs (for all weps btw)

- Small Lasers are utter crap, no light can survive in the battlefield long enough to make them worthwhile most of the time (Since they fixed netcode for lights). Range limits any other use for these weapons.

- Pulse lasers are just utter crap, the decreased duration doesn't weigh up against the weight increase, extra heat at all. It doesnt even matter if you are a crappy aimer or a pro at this.

- AC2's are about to get a nerf, really? No reason to do so. They got quite a heat penalty when using more then 2 of them, and using only 1/2 of them isnt really gamebreaking at all. High range really doesnt compensate for the upcoming nerf.



Is this a better post guys? please dont attack me again! lol

Edited by Marctraider, 13 April 2014 - 06:42 AM.

[Whoops]

Marctraider, on 13 April 2014 - 06:37 AM, said:

Is this a better post guys? please dont attack me again! lol

After you killed me with an Arty strike in Frozen City? I think attacking you is warranted, sir!

Those other weapon systems do need to be looked at (one of the reasons I don't touch SLs in my Jenner is because I have to get too close for too little damage. I've seen people packing 4-6 SPLs, so maybe it's just my piloting skill that's the problem, though).

This thread is about LRMs and the need for a buff, which I personally disagree with. I believe that damage and speed are okay on them as is. I also believe that the targeting mechanic needs to be changed to make them harder to use outside of LoS, giving some role warfare and actual teamwork (spotting, as opposed to simple targeting) to LRM boat teams, and also making it a riskier proposition to take such builds into battles where no spotter 'Mech is.

[SethAbercromby]

Cyron Zarva, on 13 April 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

This thread is about LRMs and the need for a buff, which I personally disagree with. I believe that damage and speed are okay on them as is. I also believe that the targeting mechanic needs to be changed to make them harder to use outside of LoS, giving some role warfare and actual teamwork (spotting, as opposed to simple targeting) to LRM boat teams, and also making it a riskier proposition to take such builds into battles where no spotter 'Mech is.

LRMs already do benefit from teamwork. The boater has to be aware of the battlefield and be able to move inte a position that is both in range and has a good angle to minimize potential cover for enemies. TAG and NARC improve lock-on time and spread to a certain degree to make those tools worth their tonnage. Getting a LoS lock does improve the spread but it's too insignificant to justify moving into the line of fire. But yeah, I do believe we are very close to reaching the soft spot with LRMs and then can finally move on to balance the other weapon systems.

[Bishop Steiner]

Marctraider, on 13 April 2014 - 06:37 AM, said:

Hahaha I gotta love all the responses

/trollmode deactivated



Anyway now to be realistic, LRMs are fine as they are now. Lets get on to the real issues with this game.

- SRMs totally worthless, bad hit registration, they are relatively slow and hard to use especially on fast moving mechs, ok registration will be fixed soon if we'd have to believe the devs (for all weps btw)

- Small Lasers are utter crap, no light can survive in the battlefield long enough to make them worthwhile most of the time (Since they fixed netcode for lights). Range limits any other use for these weapons.

- Pulse lasers are just utter crap, the decreased duration doesn't weigh up against the weight increase, extra heat at all. It doesnt even matter if you are a crappy aimer or a pro at this.

- AC2's are about to get a nerf, really? No reason to do so. They got quite a heat penalty when using more then 2 of them, and using only 1/2 of them isnt really gamebreaking at all. High range really doesnt compensate for the upcoming nerf.



Is this a better post guys? please dont attack me again! lol

No.

reasonable conversations are no fun.

[Corwin Vickers]

I've been having fun with gauss.

I think part of the problem is that in the board game long range weapons were even easier to hit with close up than medium range and short ranger weapons. Better targetting computers? Faster servos? I don't know. Probably the projectile speed in the case of the gauss.

With the hard point system it makes it hard to compete with amazing weapon systems like the gauss with smaller weapons. You'd need a lot of medium lasers to make up the tonnage of the gauss rifle, more than any mech can carry in this hard point system.

In this game people have gotten it in their heads that the gauss rifle should be a "sniper" rifle. Why? I blame CoD.

The problem is we are so out of whack in the balance there are no choices anymore.

You throw 2PPCs and 2AC5s in your mech with 1JJ or you're crying on the forums that nothing else works as well.

Missiles are in the toilet as a whole. Electronic warfare is fubar. Lasers are inferior in almost every way....

All that being said, gauss rifles are still pretty damn good, just not as good as they should be for the weight investment.

You increase weapon fire rates because the game play is too slow, so then you double armor to increase TTK, then you double ammo so that ballistics can actually kill stuff, but on top of all this you have perfect targetting computer convergence so no one is spreading damage, they are coring straight though things.

I still love this game but I'm using PPCs and ACs because I'm not stupid.