65 replies to this topic

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

So, was derping about in testing grounds looking at my pretty pink Battlemaster in 3PV while testing some changes.

I noticed in 3PV there is reticule sway as the mech moves, and it moves in step to the mech. Kind of how it would be if we had stompy robots that shot laser beams, bullets, and missiles.

So too see if it was not just a cosmetic thought, but a potentially gameplay impacting one; I more or less wrote my name in the snow (not really, medium lasers have a weak stream).

Video! (Probably shouldn't have left my headset sitting on the desk, you can hear my keyboard and it kills my OCD.)

But as you can see in 3PV the lasers drew a line in the snow that was not straight. It was affected by the stepping of the mech as it bobbed up and down and swayed gently left and right.

However, in 1PV it was smooth as a baby's bottom.


I think having the 3PV crosshair sway would add some more elements to the gunnery of MWO. It might help with the reining in of direct fire as well. I also think Koniving did a topic on this some time back, but I'm unable to find it. Or I'd just necro the hell out of it.


Questions? Comments? Incoming tomatoes?

[Maggiman]

I think i like the general Idea, but it would impact brawlers more than snipers :/ But with some tweaking..who knows =)

[Prezimonto]

I'm fine with it. I've been saying we need hud sway based on mech speed for over a year.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Snipers would be impacted less, but their penalty is that they'd need to stand still. And standing still means an easy target. The meanest thing is a Banshee or Jag AC boat that can move full throttle and still land accurate shots, it'd help dial that back a pretty decent bit.

You could also dial sway in two ways. More speed = more sway and more weight = more sway. It'd be interesting to say the least. And it shouldn't be hard to implement, as it's already there. It just needs it for 1PV as well.

[Airu]

I am pretty sure that the hud you see is a part of the pilots headgear, hence sway would not make sense, since its motion is in sync with head's.
Agumented reality does not have a random sway unless the screen itself is shaking.
The other reason against it is that it may produce similar issues for some people as the first version of cockpit glass.

Generally, I dont like any artificially bouncing/distracting things between me and where the action is at.

[Dock Steward]

I feel like I would never again land a hit on a light mech. Or I stand perfectly still, and shoot with my eyes closed so his buddies can't see me

[Koniving]

JohanssenJr, on 04 April 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

I think having the 3PV crosshair sway would add some more elements to the gunnery of MWO. It might help with the reining in of direct fire as well. I also think Koniving did a topic on this some time back, but I'm unable to find it. Or I'd just necro the hell out of it.
Questions? Comments? Incoming tomatoes?

I got mentioned!


Some vids to contribute here.
Before 3pv, natural and unnatural head movement (headbob, reticule sway).

3pv and 1pv.

Highlanders, watched. (Language warning. Lyrics in music.)

Dock Steward, on 04 April 2014 - 08:55 PM, said:

I feel like I would never again land a hit on a light mech. Or I stand perfectly still, and shoot with my eyes closed so his buddies can't see me

Slower you move the more accurate you are.

Now, light mechs couldn't hit crap unless they slowed down.
(Not big on CoF itself, but crosshair movement based on both torso movement [from how the mech moves] and arm movement [based on how the arms bounce] would definitely do quite a bit of good. I'd really like the cockpits to literally move in the same way the mechs do so that head position truly is kept and reflected.)

Edited by Koniving, 04 April 2014 - 10:32 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

was talking about CoF, Cockpit shake and such on another thread, so I am gonna cut and paste my thoughts, which I believe are in line with this (or rather would be complimentary too)

We need this. Because it adds realism, and adds REAL skill to the game, in place of point and shoot.

I do believe it needs to be subjectively implemented, so as not to punish one class over another, so pure speed can't be the scale. But I have always felt that at anything over say, 75% of maximum throttle one should encounter a progressively worsening CoF. There is a reason military vehicles prefer to fire from stationary defilade. It's easier to hit if you are not moving. in MWO, that is not the case, as you have PERFECT crosshair stability.

Said CoF should also be in effect, to varying degrees when:

1) Jumping. Screw cockpit shake, simply enforce CoF on the reticle. And enforce it UP and DOWN. Because no targeting system in the universe could perfectly correct and actuate weapons to the degree of accuracy we see.

2) High Heat. Any time a Mech is over say 75% of it's heat scale, one's targeting accuracy degrades, the hotter, the worse it is.

3) Extreme ranges. Weapons in MWO already have 2-3 times the range of their TT counters. Once on gets past the original TT ranges, one should again have a worsening CoF as these are beyond the optimal ranges the targeting systems were designed around.

And don't give me the "skill" argument. Twitch shooting in this game is already pathetically easy. Real skill is having to adapt to less than ideal targeting, and still being effective. It's what REAL soldiers have had to do since the dawn of time.

This also would give an easy system for implementing the Clans Advanced Targeting Computers, as it could simply diminish the extreme CoFs.

Likewise, I absolutely do feel we should have said swai in 1pV.

[Prezimonto]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 April 2014 - 09:41 PM, said:

was talking about CoF, Cockpit shake and such on another thread, so I am gonna cut and paste my thoughts, which I believe are in line with this (or rather would be complimentary too)

I used to be completely against this. I'm not any longer. I've also posted in numerous threads about how it could be accomplished reasonably and in a manner than discourages a lot of BS while preserving single fired weapon accuracy.

Essentially, if you're willing to sit still, expose yourself for more than a second or two, you should be rewarded with perfect convergence. If however, you can't get a target lock, can't wait for target information, want to fire on the move, in the air, or at high heat, you should have a CoF applied to your shots if you fire more than one weapon.

[Bishop Steiner]

Prezimonto, on 04 April 2014 - 09:45 PM, said:

I used to be completely against this. I'm not any longer. I've also posted in numerous threads about how it could be accomplished reasonably and in a manner than discourages a lot of BS while preserving single fired weapon accuracy.

Essentially, if you're willing to sit still, expose yourself for more than a second or two, you should be rewarded with perfect convergence. If however, you can't get a target lock, can't wait for target information, want to fire on the move, in the air, or at high heat, you should have a CoF applied to your shots if you fire more than one weapon.

exactly my argument since CB. It adds realism, and actually forces HIGHER skill.

[Dock Steward]

Prezimonto, on 04 April 2014 - 09:45 PM, said:

I used to be completely against this. I'm not any longer. I've also posted in numerous threads about how it could be accomplished reasonably and in a manner than discourages a lot of BS while preserving single fired weapon accuracy.

Essentially, if you're willing to sit still, expose yourself for more than a second or two, you should be rewarded with perfect convergence. If however, you can't get a target lock, can't wait for target information, want to fire on the move, in the air, or at high heat, you should have a CoF applied to your shots if you fire more than one weapon.

Contrary to most things, I actually do like this idea more the more I hear it. Now, just for shits and giggles, how likely do you think it is that we'll ever see a CoF implemented? In this game, guys. In this game.

[Prezimonto]

Slim to none. And it's going to kill the game in the long run because they can't implement imperfect convergence with the HSR system apparently.

The dev's have said before that they're aware that imperfect convergence is something they'd like to see in the game, hence the (currently worthless) skill in the pilot trees to improve convergence. They've also said it's not going to happen, and that they hate CoF and randomization mechanics.

[Dock Steward]

Prezimonto, on 04 April 2014 - 10:00 PM, said:

Slim to none. And it's going to kill the game in the long run because they can't implement imperfect convergence with the HSR system apparently.

The dev's have said before that they're aware that imperfect convergence is something they'd like to see in the game, hence the (currently worthless) skill in the pilot trees to improve convergence. They've also said it's not going to happen, and that they hate CoF and randomization mechanics.

That's silly. If there are things you could do to essentially reduce the CoF to zero (stand still, low heat, etc), then you can have it both ways; perfect convergence and CoF.

Start a petition, that always works

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I used to hate the idea of a CoF, then I played WoT. And the CoF slows the gameplay down pretty significantly. You can still shoot on the move, and speed and crew skill affect said accuracy. Higher crew skill and lower speeds = smaller CoF.

It really doesn't even need to be significant, a mild CoF with mild reticule sway could do wonders for this game. Just enough of a CoF and sway to keep my 76kph Dragon Slayer from consistently nailing CT at 500m while running full throttle and jumping in the air. It'd dramatically change the way I played it simply by having enough CoF and sway that one alpha may hit CT, another may hit a leg, and another may miss. Instead of all three 30 damage alphas dinging CT.

It'd also give a good reason to not go full throttle all the time. If I'm moving, it's full throttle because I'm just as good a shot at 70+kph as I am at 40kph.


Koniving pretty much hit the nail on the head in his videos. If the mech sways and bobs up and down, so does the pilot and that also means his sight picture does too.

[Corwin Vickers]

I don't like CoF either but it should definitely be much harder to hit things. Movement shake seems like a good way to make it harder.

Not random, but predictable while being extreme for higher movement speed.

Also it should be based on s percentage of your mechs total speed. 50% speed has X amount of sway, 100% has another, but it's the same across all mechs regardless of the actual speed.

Also, you would have to be very mindful to not be forcing a sniping meta where everyone is standing still all the time because the aiming penalty while moving is so difficult.

Basically people hit far too often for this to be Battletech, also picking out locations like we all have targeting computers with 0/0 pilots doesn't capture the right feel either.


The only problem is that while some of us may feel the game is far too easy, there are probably plenty who think the game is too hard. I think that is the real reason for the easy of aiming and homing LRMs etc. They are trying to keep the lower skill players playing.

I don't have a solution for that other than that because of Elo, lower skill players play with lower skill players.

Edited by Corwin Vickers, 04 April 2014 - 10:43 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Corwin makes two really good points, too.

Too much of a penalty and we'll have everybody standing still.

As well as a predictable sway, which involves skill, practice, and timing. That way actual skill can overcome any limitations.

[AC]

Not only this, but try jump jetting (cutting jets) and then firing at something. Your reticle jumps between your target and some other random distinct location. It is absolutely insane. You are aiming at a mech, but the reticle bounces between that mech and 50 meters in front (or behind) of that mech.

[Bishop Steiner]

JohanssenJr, on 04 April 2014 - 10:51 PM, said:

Corwin makes two really good points, too.

Too much of a penalty and we'll have everybody standing still.

As well as a predictable sway, which involves skill, practice, and timing. That way actual skill can overcome any limitations.

I find cone of fire to be predictable. You get used to knowing what the approximate spread is. Yes, it's not predictable where you can short circuit it and always learn to comp and hit the same spot, but no amount of "skill" makes that feasible anyhow.

No amount of skill can completely remove the vagaries involved in a shot. A couple grains less or more propellant, slight variations in the slug, the rifling, external effects all can make a projectile vary from it's course to some degree.

Also, my suggestions all include things that skill and a targeting system could not predictably account for as they are all things that move beyond what the targeting system is designed to cope for, extreme range, heat addling the system, and yes, bounce.

I would submit, that some degree of randomness is far more realistic, and thus, far more inducive of actual skill to compensate for than not.

[aniviron]

A cone of fire that tightens when you sit still à la Counter-Strike or CoD is a terrible idea. This punishes lights and mediums while rewarding the snipergameplay that everyone claims this will fix.

It's simple, really. Have you ever sat still while firing in a light? Did you notice how quickly you died? That it takes most assaults just one shot to kill you? Well, as a light your choice is now sit still and die in one shot, or fire on the move and hit nothing. Assaults meanwhile still have the armor to sit and trade shots, and really aren't going that fast to begin with, save for Victors and 9Ms.

And this peek and hide ridgehumping gameplay that this will apparently fix? Yeah, the snipers are already sitting still when they take their shots the vast majority of the time. This isn't going to stop them from nailing your CT for 30 damage alphas over and over and over. What this will stop is your brawler's ability to effectively fire at components on the move when they finally get close to said sniper.

I'm sure there are people who will say, "Well, make the penalty less for lights," but really, even if the penalty is decreased, all of the above is still true- you're going to give lights, mediums, brawlers, and skirmishers a penalty, and you're going to do nothing to change the way assaults and snipers work. That doesn't sound like an MWO I want to play.

[Wolfways]

While i like the above ideas i very much doubt it will ever happen simply because it will force bad players to play light mechs like...well like light mechs are supposed to be played (skirmishers/strikers) instead of replacing the mediums as brawlers as they currently do.