101 replies to this topic

[Monkeystador]

We all know that getting hit by 35 damage alphas in one zone while peaking over a hill is anoying. Snapshooting like this doesnt do good for MWO iMHo
So just imagine giving each weapon a slight offset from the crosshair center. It is like any other game where you know the gun will raise on fire thus you have to aim lower.
So a single weapon like a gauss for example, has its offset a little down and to the left. A skilled player knows how to compensate.
Simple so far?
Next add more guns to that group. Suddenly there is no more perfect convergence. While the effect is barely noticeable on close range, it would be noticeable on long range. Damage spread will occur. Most pronounce on smaller targets.

How that offset is determined is another matter.

Note: ppc counts as ballistic.

[Monkeystador]

No arguments against it? At all? Seems nobody really cares about solving the pinpoint alpha problem...

[627]

you know, it's not that we don't care, but... to say it in a nice way: welcome on our island take a seat, get a drink and watch the show.

Because that is the only thing we can do here... watching. Now from 3rd person!

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

Monkeystador, on 07 April 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

No arguments against it? At all? Seems nobody really cares about solving the pinpoint alpha problem...

I like the idea. Why would I argue against it?

In fact I eliminate pin point alphas myself by never using an alpha and by refusing to fire my weapons in a pinpoint manner.

Unless it's a powered down mech and I have a clean shot at the cockpit. Can't resist then.

[wolf74]

HAY! Stop hogging all the buttered Popcorn! Anyone seen the sea-salt for the popcorn?

(Throws Monkystandor a Soda) I think there is any open sit near the end of row 37, B side

Edited by wolf74, 07 April 2014 - 10:13 PM.

[Nauht]

I know, giant stompy robots, pewpewpew and all but we've been able to accurately zero scopes and crosshairs for a long while now. Having your shots not land where you're aiming would be more frustrating than not.

[MoonUnitBeta]

I really wish they would just do it right and have it like OP describes. But, I would like to see a wider spread so that brawling is a lot less pin point (because who would bother sniping if they can't do pin point damage?). And I would like to see that based on the amount of time, and steadiness of your aiming, there are two points that slowly close into each other just below the reticle as your weapons system focuses the arms.

Maybe something like:

*holding steady on target 800m away*

>---[]---<

>--[]--<

>-[]-<

>[]<

= + =

*SHOTS FIRED*

>-[]-<

>[]<

= + =

*SHOTS FIRED*

This time spent focusing in your shot exposes your mech, also, the greater the distance, the longer it takes to acquire that "pinpoint" convergence (but also within a certain range, weapons reach a convergence limit, and cannot pinpoint, making aiming more difficult the closer you are). I would like to see then modules that either quickens convergence (yes, it know it's a skill thingy atm), and also one that updates the weapon system to increase it's alignment accuracy.

That fact that ANY of that doesn't exist in the game today is total BS.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 07 April 2014 - 10:29 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

i could probably adapt, but really - i think it's too complex and unrealistic.

right now in real life, in fact probably since 1992 - we got a helicopter that can shoot it's vulcan cannon wherever the pilot aims...



http://science.howst...helicopter5.htm

"Each pilot can aim the sensors by simply moving his or her head!"


SO - if this technology is 22 years old now... then why would a walking war machine in the year 3050 need a joystick without convergence?!?!? makes no sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! esp. when you realize the tracking gear already exists in the long range missile systems.
if the missiles can track then why not the lasers converge? seems just TOO silly


imo it's best to nerf the AC by rate of fire and increase the heat so they add to the PPC's heat (but leave the ppc heat alone)
then maaybe double internal hitpoints for all mechs.


it would be simpler, fair and more realistic in a real world sense.

[Monkeystador]

@moonunitbeta not going to happen, in this thread
You need to read more carefully. What i wrote still allows sniping. Even fast poptart snipping. It just doesnt allow pinpoint with two or more weapons.
You can still mount a single gauss rifle into a shadow hawk and snipe with it. Very well even so.
But you wont do pinpoint in a Banshee with all guns combined!!! You can still fire all but exspect a spread over the target.
Needless to say, but i still say it, the Banshee still be that alpha monster on shorter ranges.
Besides that converging reticles have the problem that you would have to slow down. This has been discussed in another thread of mine. Doing that is a dead sentence for lights, thus lights could not hit with this mechanic. It is not practical for current gameplay.

Edit: @Mazzyplz
Unrealistic does not matter for computer games. Real Life comparison does not count for MWO. Gameplay fun matters. The game is placed in a lwotech setting that doesnt give you high tech guided weapons. It is more like WW2 tech with powerful lasers and fusion reactors.

Edited by Monkeystador, 07 April 2014 - 10:36 PM.

[Divine Retribution]

I'd prefer that pinpoint damage be corrected by weapon range and ability to move horizontally. Torso weapons are fixed, so it's always strange that the impact hits the center of the reticle at whatever range you are aiming. That would indicate that torso weapons aren't in a fixed position, the same goes for arm-mounted weapons where no elbow actuators exist to allow horizontal movement.

To me, each torso weapon and each arm weapon without horizontal movement capability should pass through the center of the targeting reticle at maximum optimum firing range. A dual gauss or dual AC/20 Jager, for example, will have the weapons hit center of reticle at 810 or 270 meters, respectively. A dual gauss Cataphract-3D has one weapon that can hit center arm reticle at any range and one that hits center of torso reticle at 810 meters. 2 PPCs and 2 AC/5's on a 3D, Victor, or Highlander? That leads to 3, 2, and 2 convergence points.

On the 3D the points are arm (converges at point of aim thanks to elbow), AC on torso and PPC on torso (because of different maximum effective ranges). Potential examples are endless and it would add realism to the game while ruining the pinpoint meta on all but a handful of builds (e.g. when a mech has lower arm actuators and only arm-mounted weapons).

Future customization could include changing the convergence points on fixed weapons in the mechlab; techs can offset weapons slightly to alter the fixed point of aim, but it doesn't change dynamically during the match based on point of aim. Want your dual AC/20 K2 to converge at 150m? Can do, but you get to watch the rounds cross when you are firing at a target 400m away.

Addendum: It would also make center torso weapons more desirable, especially a single weapon that aims in line with the reticle.

Edited by Divine Retribution, 07 April 2014 - 11:25 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Mazzyplz, on 07 April 2014 - 10:29 PM, said:

http://science.howst...helicopter5.htm

"Each pilot can aim the sensors by simply moving his or her head!"

But... it's a single cannon on a ball joint type rotator.... Might be OK with arm weapons, but what about torso mounted weapons?
I dunno, when people bring in real world tech, I can't help but feel like they're totally missing the issue of bad gameplay... It's not about whats current or what's real, it's about issues that PGI can't balance with speed, damage, heat, range, etc. The problem always comes down to single point damage, and they will never be able to get away from that unless they break up the points.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Monkeystador, on 07 April 2014 - 10:30 PM, said:

@moonunitbeta not going to happen, in this thread
You need to read more carefully. What i wrote still allows sniping. Even fast poptart snipping. It just doesnt allow pinpoint with two or more weapons.
You can still mount a single gauss rifle into a shadow hawk and snipe with it. Very well even so.
But you wont do pinpoint in a Banshee with all guns combined!!! You can still fire all but exspect a spread over the target.
Needless to say, but i still say it, the Banshee still be that alpha monster on shorter ranges.

I get that, but like I said, so why would I snipe with only one weapon, when I can just walk up to something and blast them with all my weapons in the face like everyone else will do? By the sounds of it, say someone 900m+ away is going to get sprayed with my weapons if I fire all at once, Get an AC/5 in the right arm, a ppc in the CT, and another AC/5 in the left arm. Considering how small the target is at that range, my understanding is the difference in convergence is pretty small. That kind of means roughly 750m and under you can accurately put your damage into one component.
In terms of accuracy for firing on weapon, how will the game know that it's the gauss you're firing that is going to hit dead-on, but not the ppc you're firing? How do you solve the issue of chain firing? Do you see that as an issue? Does it have to be torso mounted, or arm mounted? There's many things that are in effect.

That's why I feel like acquiring your accuracy vs the risk of exposing yourself is an acceptable trade off, one that's likely easier to implement. But! If you go more in depth about how you envision it working, that'd help too.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 07 April 2014 - 10:45 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

the problem is not actually pinpoint, stopping players from shooting the components they want to shoot is a very bad substitute for balance.
how would people even get a headshot then???

the real problem is the weapons are doing too much dmg... that's it. you pinpoint all the autocannons on a single component and bam, down to red. with ppcs at least the shooter gets a massive heat spike. with autocannon it's just like nothing. on your merry way off you go!!! to shoot other components with the same impunity.

trying to curve player skill is the epitome of pandering to the bads.

i'd be more inclined to agree to nerf autocannons to burst or have ppc and autocannons do splash damage as suggested.

breaking the convergence completely would just make headshots impossible, shooting weakened components extremely hard.
it would be like two people with no depth perception tryin to slap each other in the face.
just a bad idea in my opinion, sorry

there would be a lot less room for player growth or improvement in terms of skillset. pinpoint should stay but it shouldn't take out a component in one shot.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Mazzyplz, on 07 April 2014 - 10:48 PM, said:

the problem is not actually pinpoint, stopping players from shooting the components they want to shoot is a very bad substitute for balance.
how would people even get a headshot then???

the real problem is the weapons are doing too much dmg... that's it. you pinpoint all the autocannons on a single component and bam, down to red. with ppcs at least the shooter gets a massive heat spike. with autocannon it's just like nothing. on your merry way off you go!!! to shoot other components with the same impunity.

trying to curve player skill is the epitome of pandering to the bads.

i'd be more inclined to agree to nerf autocannons to burst or have ppc and autocannons do splash damage as suggested.

breaking the convergence completely would just make headshots impossible, shooting weakened components extremely hard.
it would be like two people with no depth perception tryin to slap each other in the face.
just a bad idea in my opinion, sorry

But you're not curving player skill. There is no random effect on split convergence. You need to compensate for your weapon systems, and for someone who likes real world references, that's something that everyone can relate to. If we walk into the fantasy realm, star citizen has fixed weapons (and some turrets). Have you seen some of the dog fighting sneak peak trailers? Aiming is hard. Aiming should be hard. That doesn't mean your making the player less skillful. If you watch the Star citizen videos, most of the shots made are missed because of the lack of auto convergence.

Take the issue you mentioned into picture "the real problem is the weapons are doing too much dmg... that's it. you pinpoint all the autocannons on a single component and bam, down to red." You're not only splitting up the pinpoint damage, but missed shots on autocannons? hello!!! AMMO.
"with ppcs at least the shooter gets a massive heat spike. with autocannon it's just like nothing." So there you have it. Ammo to Autocannons is what heat is to PPC's.

Is that so bad?

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 07 April 2014 - 10:53 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

yes. it is extremely bad. spending ammo does not put you in a compromising spot that building up heat does.
NOT EVEN CLOSE.

to mitigate this effect energy boats with ppc need to actually manage their heat bar.

ammo users don't need that skillset. or a very limited version of it.

Edited by Mazzyplz, 07 April 2014 - 10:56 PM.

[Monkeystador]

@all i like you to focus on the following or about the core of the thread itself. Please stay on topic.

Divine Retribution, on 07 April 2014 - 10:31 PM, said:

I'd prefer that pinpoint damage be corrected by weapon range and ability to move horizontally. ...

I like this idea too. I always wondered how the gun are adjusting the aim point. Besides that it is easy enough to realise.
I can see alot of good effects this change would have...
if anyone want to discuss this go ahead and think of good or negative effects this change would have.

+PinPoint alpha on long range starts disappears unless you fire the same weapon type from the same section. Thus two ppcs from the same section still stack properly.
+Sniping with a single weapon is still possible but it is more difficult because you have to take the target range into account. To make it more player friendly maybe a different crosshair with a scale would help. Multi weapon snipping is still possible if fired from the same section.
+ Arm Mounted would become more usefull. Arm mounted weapons would be the choice for pin point over all range. But still needs convergence
+ Face Hugging gameplay changes.

- Hitting on very close ranges with fixed weapons will be more difficult. Advanced crosshairs would be needed.
- Gameplay difficulty goes up.

Maybe: Mech usage becomes more diversified.

Edited by Monkeystador, 07 April 2014 - 10:58 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Mazzyplz, on 07 April 2014 - 10:54 PM, said:

yes. it is extremely bad. spending ammo does not put you in a compromising spot that heat does.
NOT EVEN CLOSE.

UNTIL YOU RUN OUT?
With more ammo, you run with less weapons, smaller engine, less armor, or what ever your set up may be. Ammo dependance affects a lot of things

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 07 April 2014 - 10:57 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Homeless Bill had a reticle solution awhile back...you should try to find it on here.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Lyoto Machida, on 07 April 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

Homeless Bill had a reticle solution awhile back...you should try to find it on here.

Yeah, it's here: http://www.qqmercs.com/?p=2780
Or here: http://mwomercs.com/...active-reticle/

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 07 April 2014 - 11:00 PM.

[Monkeystador]

Stop discussion anything not related to this thread please. @MoonUnit@Mazzyplz

Thank you for the reference. IT is an interesting but totally different solution for the problem.

Edited by Monkeystador, 07 April 2014 - 11:03 PM.