35 replies to this topic

[foyrkopp]

Greetings Mechwarriors

In a much discussed thread Void Angels advocates a "follow the fracking atlas"-philosophy that basically centers around the idea that a somewhat decently coordinated push will usually break the back of a generic enemy team in a PUG.
Personal experience corroborates this: Once you get a push going (which in a PUG not always works) you more often than not find yourself with a distinct advantage.
Furthermore, the idea is that an Atlas is an easy to follow spearhead for uncoordinated PUG players, usually gets focused first and can survive quite some damage before falling, enhancing both the propability of the push actually happening and of it succeeding in an environment of minimal communication.

Ghost Badgers posted the idea that a Stalker might actually be better suited to the task of spearheading such a push due to its more favorable hitbox design.

Basic idea:

• Load up a Stalker with a STD engine and all the energy weaponry and SRMs you can carry.
  
• Assume command.
  
• Announce "form up with the Stalker in XY lance pls" at the beginning of the PUG to form le blob.
  
• Announce "wait for the assaults unless you scout" to keep le blob
  
• Give attack order when the time is right
  
• Charge. Don't stop till through or dead.

I would like to hear the community's (especially the veterans) opinion on both the strategy itself and the idea to use a Stalker instead of an Atlas. Be advised that I'm talking strictly about PUGs.

See you in the field
foyrkopp

[StalaggtIKE]

I find a Stalker does take a fair beating before it falls. That thin CT just does wonders for it. Be advised that it can lose its side torsos pretty quickly, thus losing half of firepower.

[SethAbercromby]

StalaggtIKE, on 08 April 2014 - 04:33 AM, said:

I find a Stalker does take a fair beating before it falls. That thin CT just does wonders for it. Be advised that it can lose its side torsos pretty quickly, thus losing half of firepower.

Its average armor rating is also quite a bit lower because it lacks 15 tons compared to the Atlas. It also doesn't have many favors for it in actual brawls because while the CT is thin, the side torsos are just too easy to hit and you cannot shield yourself with your launchers properly so the best you can hope for while torso twisting is to spread the damage across your sides as evenly as possible. The Stalker can brawl against single targets fairly well but during a push, you are in most cases much better suited with a mid to long range fire-support build, moving in with another Assault but not taking the lead itself unless the primary pusher has gone down in a glorious fireball.

[DI3T3R]

Combine with an ECM to prevent LRM-counter-measures during the charge and with an AC-boat to suppress enemy snipers...

[Alaskan Nobody]

I'd rather follow a Stalker (or an Atlas - both have their advantages) into battle than most Victor or Highlander pilots I drop with/against.

....but then, I'd rather follow most Awesome pilots I drop with (rarely get a good one on the other side....) than most Highlander/Victor pilots I drop with/against, so you millage may vary with that....

Having said that - the Stalker was built to be a jack-of-all-ranges / siege weapon, and has great hitboxes for spreading damage from direct fire weapons, provide the pilot knows how to make use of them (the learning of which is made difficult by how "friendly" the frontal design is)
Biggest weakness to the design would be the weakness to LRM (and other "from above") fire.
(and people keep saying the dual-AMS Stalker and Atlas are bad....hmmm)

[DONTOR]

I did exactly this! On crimson straight, the enemy was poptarting at saddle I had my 5 ASRM6 staker 5M with 4 MLs and std 300. I told the team I would push and take the brunt of the damage, and that they should folow me. We did exactly that, a fll saddle push behind my stalker.
I 2 shotted a cataphract and kept pushing into the enemy lines dropped an arty strike on a group of them and kept taking damage, the arty killed one and I was able to CT core a K2 catapault very quickly, my team was behind me the whole time spreading into the enemy lines through the hole my stalker had made. I lost a side torso but finished yet another K2 off before I was finally destroyed by a brawler atlas.
Ended up with 900 something damage and 4 kills but most importantly took piles of damage and a really long time to kill. allowing my team to get to grips the the PPC heavy enemy.

[SethAbercromby]

Shar Wolf, on 08 April 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

(and people keep saying the dual-AMS Stalker and Atlas are bad....hmmm)

Ignorant fools couldn't tell missile defense if it shot down an entire LRM 50 volley. I'm still amazed how few people invest 1.5 tons into proper missile defense that would benefit both them as well as their team. There is almost no reason to ever not install one, especially with LRM boats still being quite popular in the current meta.

[Alaskan Nobody]

SethAbercromby, on 08 April 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

There is almost no reason to ever not install one, especially with LRM boats still being quite popular in the current meta.

Comes from back when
1) LRM were "worthless" though it is amazing how many people left themselves wide open to them
Also
2) Those mech's offer nothing that the other variants don't other than the second AMS - which means that unless you specifically want that second AMS - there is no reason to get one
3) Those variants are significantly more expensive than the others, making them a hefty investment just for the second AMS
4) 12 mans never really picked up the LRM "meta" this time - making the AMS a waste on the "ultimate mini-maxed meta, grrr I r manly man, see my testosterone poisoning!!11! u suxors!!" builds they use.

All in all, because a few "Elite" builders considered it a waste - and because they were willing to shout down anyone who disagreed, AMS is usually considered a waste

Edited by Shar Wolf, 08 April 2014 - 09:30 AM.

[Tremendous Upside]

One of the reasons why the Atlas is the perfect mech to push behind goes beyond just looking at the stats on paper. It's got the heaviest armor in the game - and without a doubt among the least flexible hardpoints. It's not a mech that'll produce well if it's not up in front or boating LRMs/dakka support in the back. You can't shoot over or around teammates easily in one - and the torso tilt is so poor, it's almost impossible to use anything mounted on the body of the mech on anything short of level/close to level ground. If you march Stalkers, HGNs, Victors, etc. in front of an Atlas, it's really not doing much until the sight-lines clear. Meaning you either move or get obliterated to clear the way for them.

Stalkers on the other hand, have nice high arm mounts. They're great for shooting over teammates and cover on inclines. They also have lots of different hardpoints to use for a variety of weapon loadouts. I'll typically run a pair of LRM10s in my 3F (with 6MLs and 2SRM6's for backup). Even if I have 5 guys in front of me, I'm still tossing rockets pretty much non-stop and contributing. It's well-suited to working in packs that way... Now with that said, where my Stalker is undoubtedly worst, is when I'm in a place where I'm "focused". The side torsos are massive and ALWAYS go before the CT does. That's both good and bad. Lose a side torso on the 3F, and half your firepower is gone - and it doesn't take more than a couple volleys for that to be the case. You can't swing your arms/ears to protect yourself. You're just "out there" and you're going to take a beating.

Now admittedly the Atlas suffers in much the same way in that regard... but I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the Atlas needs clear sight lines a lot more than a Stalker (or Victor, HGN, etc...). There are obviously exceptions depending on builds... LRM "anythings" shouldn't be leading charges - but if I were given a choice of what I'd follow behind in a push, the Atlas would be my first choice without a doubt. They're a lot better working in front of or beside me than waiting till I'm obliterated to get their shots in. That almost never ends well.

[SethAbercromby]

Shar Wolf, on 08 April 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

Comes from back when
1) LRM were "worthless" though it is amazing how many people left themselves wide open to them
Also
2) Those mech's offer nothing that the other variants don't other than the second AMS - which means that unless you specifically want that second AMS - there is no reason to get one

I was referring to AMS in general, which, to my knowledge, is available to almost every 'Mech with only one or two exceptions that are not able to mount AMS at all. And again, it's only 1.5 tons to mount AMS and there is no good reason why you would ever want to not install one. A full team with AMS that is able to move somewhat coordinated can focus much more on the direct-hitters then having to cover from incoming LRMs. More freedom of movement is a direct advantage for everyone in the team, from the Assaults that lead the push to the Centurion diving into the enemy's flank.

[Alaskan Nobody]

SethAbercromby, on 08 April 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

I was referring to AMS in general, which, to my knowledge, is available to almost every 'Mech with only one or two exceptions that are not able to mount AMS at all.

Only one that cannot (currently) is the CDA-X5

I was just presenting the arguments that I have been fighting against since shortly after I first installed AMS.
That was back in the days of the first (and so far only true) LRMageddon - when I dropped into a pug match where (seriously) everyone on my team has AMS.... and the opposing team didn't.

[AlmightyAeng]

So, to expand a little bit on the quote the OP posted from me...

In a number of games, I see PuG's grouping up not just behind the Atlas, but specifically behind the DDC. Having a DDC lead the charge, is, in my opinion, a WASTE. The ecm it carries is a HUGE advantage to your team, especially since it's heavily ARMORED ecm.

Whenever my 4-man is tired of a losing streak, one solution has always been to grab 3 stalkers and a DDC (in the future that will likely include a heavily armed Muromets or 4X instead).

The stalker is great at leading a charge straight on. YES, it's vulnerable from the sides. That's why we have a stalker lead the charge, and the mechs following it, whether it's a stalker or a DDC follow from behind and TO THE SIDE. You never wanna conga-line your mechs...if you're behind that lead stalker, your job is to 'beat up on the stalkers target' and, when fire comes in from the side, meet it with your OWN fire so they desist.

*shrug* Tends to work great for us, when we simply want to faceroll people with short-range, heavily tonned firepower. Even if we all die, 9 times out of 10 we've hit the enemy so hard our team cleans up...and we regard this as having "done our job."

[SethAbercromby]

Ghost Badger, on 08 April 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

The stalker is great at leading a charge straight on. YES, it's vulnerable from the sides. That's why we have a stalker lead the charge, and the mechs following it, whether it's a stalker or a DDC follow from behind and TO THE SIDE. You never wanna conga-line your mechs...if you're behind that lead stalker, your job is to 'beat up on the stalkers target' and, when fire comes in from the side, meet it with your OWN fire so they desist.

True, but the idea of an Assault leading the push is to get close and personal and draw the fire on itself so the smaller, less armored allies can help without fear to be gunned down the second they leave cover. There is no better 'Mech to do this than an Atlas in any variation. I agree, you don't always have to sacrifice a D-DC to lead the push, no need to waste that precious ECM. There are other variants that can do the job equally well and invest the free tonnage of a lacking ECM into some more armor or firepower. But by the end of the day, someone's gotta do it and if a Stalker works for you, a Stalker it shall be.

[AlmightyAeng]

SethAbercromby, on 08 April 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

True, but the idea of an Assault leading the push is to get close and personal and draw the fire on itself so the smaller, less armored allies can help without fear to be gunned down the second they leave cover. There is no better 'Mech to do this than an Atlas in any variation. I agree, you don't always have to sacrifice a D-DC to lead the push, no need to waste that precious ECM. There are other variants that can do the job equally well and invest the free tonnage of a lacking ECM into some more armor or firepower. But by the end of the day, someone's gotta do it and if a Stalker works for you, a Stalker it shall be.

I disagree. Good players see an Atlas and take out the right torso AC20, or focus the CT. The CT hitbox is so large, an Atlas leading the charge hardly has a prayer. Hence the Stalker. An Atlas is far better at wading/soaking damage in the MIDDLE of a brawl, since so much of that armor is in its arms. But being the first mech on the scene you're instantly focused, and your armshields are wasted.

[SethAbercromby]

Ghost Badger, on 08 April 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

I disagree. Good players see an Atlas and take out the right torso AC20, or focus the CT. The CT hitbox is so large, an Atlas leading the charge hardly has a prayer. Hence the Stalker. An Atlas is far better at wading/soaking damage in the MIDDLE of a brawl, since so much of that armor is in its arms. But being the first mech on the scene you're instantly focused, and your armshields are wasted.

A Stalker might draw less fire but good players will still tear your side torsos apart. An Atlas seems to be focused more often because of its reputation but a good team would be just as deadly to a stalker. If you'd switch out one stalker for another atlas, you'd still have good results because you are a 4 man Assault lance pushing so there is nothing to really measure the effectiveness of a stalker leading the push compared to an atlas in pugs.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 08 April 2014 - 10:30 AM.

[Urdasein]

SethAbercromby, on 08 April 2014 - 04:52 AM, said:

Its average armor rating is also quite a bit lower because it lacks 15 tons compared to the Atlas. It also doesn't have many favors for it in actual brawls because while the CT is thin, the side torsos are just too easy to hit and you cannot shield yourself with your launchers properly so the best you can hope for while torso twisting is to spread the damage across your sides as evenly as possible. The Stalker can brawl against single targets fairly well but during a push, you are in most cases much better suited with a mid to long range fire-support build, moving in with another Assault but not taking the lead itself unless the primary pusher has gone down in a glorious fireball.

Yes and no.

Yup:
On my 4 large laser / 22 DHS Stalker... Yes, fire coming from flanks is a pain. I play it just a step behind Atlases and try to "look" at what fires on me (and throw it an alpha in the face witch i don't care since that mech runs really, really cool). The goal of this mech is to fill unarmored parts with 4 rays of blue love.

Nope:
On my AC20/Large pulse Misery, I put all the weapons on the same side. So... You try to shield yourself with the other side... It's like a peek a boo brawl.

Edited by loupgaroupoilu, 08 April 2014 - 10:39 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Ghost Badger, on 08 April 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

I disagree. Good players see an Atlas and take out the right torso AC20, or focus the CT. The CT hitbox is so large, an Atlas leading the charge hardly has a prayer. Hence the Stalker. An Atlas is far better at wading/soaking damage in the MIDDLE of a brawl, since so much of that armor is in its arms. But being the first mech on the scene you're instantly focused, and your armshields are wasted.

I used to exclusively pilot Atlases and this has been my experience, especially after the last hitbox "fix". The Stalker's hitbox just allows it take more abuse, similar to how a Spider or Centurion outlives its tonnage.

[Koniving]

So, chiming in...after coming online to receive 64 notifications between 6 in the morning and 1 PM.

An energy based stalker will have some problems. But a missile based stalker backed up with lasers will not. The issue is whether or not the stalker will shut down at a crucial moment in the charge. After all stalkers always run hotter than Atlases.

Just remember to beef up the back armor, too, if you plan to lead charges. What happens if you don't? Glad you asked. This happens. (Shar's in this one).

Stalker leading a 2 mech charge against a catapult and two quickdraws. Unknowingly punished a lot by heat scale (ghost heat) so be sure your build complies with it. Here. Great Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries rock!

Heat scale (ghost heat) punished weapons can be found here at Smurfy's website which takes data directly from the game.

Two of the most recent successful Stalker Charges I've done. Here. First full charge: 4:07. Second full charge: 7:26. At first Shar leads up to the ridge but at the ridge, I take it to the other side killing the one scout before he could announce our presence then loop to flank the enemy, and let everyone know I'm there.

Of course, no one says you ever have to let the enemy know you're there. This stealth kill against a Dragon Slayer wiped it out before he even realizes I'm standing 6 meters away from him at the BACK end of the enemy poptart and snipe line is followed by another and then sequentially wipes out the enemy with the help of allied forces.


Stalker, leading a charge of two Atlases and another mech -- who are all three wiped out within 20 seconds of starting the fight by the same firepower that then takes several minutes to kill the Stalker. Here.

[Sarlic]

Who's making my Atlas look like a potato? I should slap you! Haha.

Edited by Sarlic, 08 April 2014 - 11:48 AM.

[Koniving]

Sarlic, on 08 April 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

Who's making my Atlas look like a potato? I should slap you! Haha.

You know... Those Atlases are pretty high on calories. You know what's a good way for burning off calories?
Reference.

Edited by Koniving, 08 April 2014 - 12:04 PM.