48 replies to this topic

[dario03]

Simply making a loss count as a death would fix most of the issues. Don't give people a reason to hide but instead give them a reason to keep fighting. If you lose all your friendlies and all your weapons then you lost, move on.
Also 8 to 4 does not equal obvious winners. Odds in their favor maybe but it is not a guarantee.

[Ardney]

Koniving, on 20 April 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

>.>

Completely off-topic but man...I miss the way the game used to look. Making mechs glow and knocking dudes over... Those were the good old days

Edited by Ardney, 20 April 2014 - 04:48 PM.

[Durant Carlyle]

There is already a Surrender/Retreat option -- it's called running out of bounds or overheating yourself to death.

There should be no way to avoid the consequences of losing.

[Kjudoon]

Durant Carlyle, on 20 April 2014 - 07:44 PM, said:

There is already a Surrender/Retreat option -- it's called running out of bounds or overheating yourself to death.

There should be no way to avoid the consequences of losing.

Not acceptable.

[Ardney]

Durant Carlyle, on 20 April 2014 - 07:44 PM, said:

There is already a Surrender/Retreat option -- it's called running out of bounds or overheating yourself to death.

There should be no way to avoid the consequences of losing.

Perfectly acceptable.

[Hans Von Lohman]

Have it like the board game. Run out of bounds near your base = retreat.

Still, there is the flip side argument that if you can retreat, people will ditch maps they hate, or not put forth effort to actually win in a tough fight.

Granted, come backs to win in MWO are actually quite rare. Most games are decided by the first couple of kills, and then it snowballs.

[Khobai]

1) surrendering is stupid. you should not be able to shut down and surrender.

2) retreating should be an option. your team should have to VOTE to retreat though. Requiring a team vote to retreat prevents any kind of abuse... because the only way you could retreat is when the team as a whole agrees they cant win. Although a team should not be able to retreat until 3-4 minutes into the match.

Additionally a new "survivor" bonus should be added, so all mechs that survive a match, get a cbill bonus. This rewards you for surviving on the winning team or retreating on the losing team.

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Simply making a loss count as a death would fix most of the issues

Removing KDR would fix that issue too. KDR causes players to think their owns stats are more important than the team winning and they adjust their playstyles as such. KDR reinforces negative behavior and should be removed.

Edited by Khobai, 20 April 2014 - 10:50 PM.

[Egomane]

Moving to feature suggestion.

If possible, stay clear of any team treason discussion, or I will be forced to shut the thread down.

[Spawnsalot]

So if you're going to have a retreat count as a loss and death *anyway*, why not just take your defeat like a good sport and either go down swinging or engage ramming speed?

Sorry Kjudoon, I agree with you on quite a few issues but a surrender option is just daft and exceedingly detrimental to team play.

If you give people the option to surrender you're going to have droves of people just hit surrender the second they see a match turn against them leaving a team that could have made a comeback an extra mech short, potentially ensuring a loss.

If you've been fighting and you've been crippled/disarmed and you're no longer a threat but you somehow managed to runaway before someone could land a kill shot, you're effectively dead already - you've been out-played/out-gunned/out-matched, the enemy team went to deal with your team mates who were still a threat.
Unless you're on Conquest and have a chance of winning by resource points or a base cap on Assault, accept this and go find the enemy team and just end it.

If you play in the solo queue you should know what to expect by now when it comes to a teams performance, that's what you signed up for when you hit "Play Now".

Your current suggestions are both worse than ending it in a ball of fire, if you just get it over with you keep your EXP *and* your C-Bills *AND* you're able to drop again with that mech almost immediately.

Sometimes you've just got to take the rough with the smooth.

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The scoreboard reads 0-8 or worse, and you've been cored and disarmed. There is no hope of winning and the other side is yowling on chat for you to stick your head into the noose and you just don't want to.

If you're cored and disarmed would you have been bothered if you had been finished off in a fire-fight before you managed to run away?

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and you don't feel like being the next notch in some brat's gun belt.

Why are the people that killed you "brats"? Are you any different when you kill people?
It's a mech shooting game, at the end of the day somebody's going to get shot.

Do you run away and hide in a hostage rescue match on Counter-Strike or a Search and Destroy match on Call of Duty?

Sorry, this just sounds like bad sportsmanship and people being sore losers.
Yes there are some poor winners out there that can make the experience more than a little grating but do you honestly care about what they say/do?

[Ssamout]

I find it's ok to run'n'hide to snipe few easy kill's before you are eventually overrun, it's just common sense. Although I tend to go in guns blazing if there is no hope, but, because this is a tactical game, it would be just awesome that running and hiding and thus surviving would be a smart move. Takes more pilot skill to survive that to die, so game should encourage that.

In the future I hope the individual battles mean more. Meaning that a mech to survive to outskirts would be valid option to wait in for reinforcements. Or if that's just fantasy, then bring back repair'n'refit, so that fixing that xl engine would be expensive or sumthing.

Although now there have been these assault-matches, where our team has a disco at base, enemy is winning by points but are so banged up, that they just wait to win. Then we all just wait 10min's to that timer to go down. At games like those the 'surrender' option would be nice, as the battle is lost anyway.

[Peter2k]

I don't see people farming
People disconecting from the start don't get anything, so they must have other reasons or problems

I can see it already, pugs quitting left and right because everything seems lost, ensuring a loss
Instead of going down fighting and actually coming back victorious once in a while
Maybe it's an ELO thing, or it's the time I play, but for every stomp I see, I see an actually interesting, well balanced and close game as well

If I'm last I'm not protecting my K/D ratio, I look for the enemy and go out guns blazing
Sparing everyone, including my team mates a long boring look at a patch of dirt somewhere

I've also seen times on assault where one mech was hiding, and the rest of the enemy team got wiped out by turrets because they there stupid enough to go up against said turrets while being nearly dead them self


Frankly I don't understand players hiding, hoping to preserve their ego?
Let's say one in 200 matches, hiding serves a tactical benefit to you're team, to victory.
U don't need a "were down 2 mechs, I'm outta here" Button for that.

Now if we have Repair n Rearm back, maybe
But PGI should dare trying, at this kind of income levels
Doing 800 dmg, lots of assists, some kills, hero mech and premium time I'm averaging 200k, that's if it was a good match
If it's a loss than I'm lucky to break sort of even if I took a UAV with me

I shiver at imagining the number of games players have to farm that only do low damage and assists numbers, without all the percentage bonuses.
And then add repair again?
Seriously hope not.

U know you're also stealing the money from the enemy team if u r retreating, it could be you winning after getting stomped several times
And now that you're actually winning, 6 players opt for retreat, and u end up with scraps again, although u won.
How about removing the ability to shut down, u could still run out of bounds, if u feel like griefing.

[Peter2k]

Nils Bohrman, on 21 April 2014 - 03:43 AM, said:

I find it's ok to run'n'hide to snipe few easy kill's before you are eventually overrun, it's just common sense. Although I tend to go in guns blazing if there is no hope, but, because this is a tactical game, it would be just awesome that running and hiding and thus surviving would be a smart move. Takes more pilot skill to survive that to die, so game should encourage that.

In the future I hope the individual battles mean more. Meaning that a mech to survive to outskirts would be valid option to wait in for reinforcements. Or if that's just fantasy, then bring back repair'n'refit, so that fixing that xl engine would be expensive or sumthing.

Although now there have been these assault-matches, where our team has a disco at base, enemy is winning by points but are so banged up, that they just wait to win. Then we all just wait 10min's to that timer to go down. At games like those the 'surrender' option would be nice, as the battle is lost anyway.

In my time playing since closed Beta, and my wife always tells me I spent too much time playing, I have seen, literally, 3 people with enough skill to turn the tide all by themselves at the end while being outnumbered, like 4 or 5 to 1.
But it also was quite some luck and skill of the other teammates that damaged the mechs enough for the miracle to happen.
You don't need a new mechanic for that, it's just that if ELO works then you're up against players that are as good (within reason) as you
So if you're absolute elite and maybe could pull something of like this, then so are they probably (again, within reason)

If you're so keen on repair costs, how about not giving out 75% ammo for free, bah xl engine, let's see people run they're smug LRM boats or Dakka cheese if they have to actually pay for the ammo. ;-)
Then we're back to PPC cheese I guess, yay for ghost heat.
Pfft DPS AC 2 nonsense :-)
Shooting 300 rounds every match and including some repairs is going to ruin those guys discussing the finer points of which Dakka is better.

Edited by Peter2k, 21 April 2014 - 05:00 AM.

[Flaming oblivion]

I am usually the first to defend the under dogs who get stomped 12-0 or whatever but in this case I cant when I get to the end of my match seeing my score at 50-100 and everyone elses under 10 i'm thinking why did I bother?

Its fine if they want to put them selves in positions where they cant do anything but why should I be punished for it, you should be able to opt out of a battle . However it would have to be introduced in a fashion where it couldn't be abused for trolling/ c-bill farming.

And before anyone says be a man fight or its not fair on the rest of the team, Lets be blunt if the rest of the team has done less then 100 damage and the score stands at 8-10-0-4 no power on this earth is going to make that winnable no matter what you do.

Why should I waste my time in a position I've been forced into by my own team where anything I do is futile, Not wishing to sound harsh just honest.

Edited by Flaming oblivion, 21 April 2014 - 05:39 AM.

[Spawnsalot]

If people want to surrender you can already do so - you type in general chat "You guys win, I'm out. I'll be shutting down in D3, good game y'all."

[Kjudoon]

So... I'm getting a strong reaction of "Surrendering/Retreat" is stupid and we can't allow that for reasons beyond my divining, but I am dubious on their soundness. But we have dozens of "hiding is wrong" threads which is caused by people making the Skirmish ROFLstompers work for their victory by finding the last guy by wandering around the map looking for them for long periods of time. Going out of bounds unfairly penalizes the player's contributions.

Which would you rather have. An honorable way for the person you beat to say 'GG, I withdraw' without a severe penalty and end the game early, or keep hunting for them?

I'm offering a solution to a problem you guys asked for, forcing thinking back into a thoughtless game mode of 'mech smash' that does not totally screw one party.

[Spawnsalot]

I gave plenty of reasoning a few posts further up this page, I was hoping to have some decent feedback from you and to discuss the topic further. I've not seen any reasoning behind surrendering outside of "I don't want to die when we lose!".

Kjudoon, on 21 April 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

Which would you rather have. An honorable way for the person you beat to say 'GG, I withdraw' without a severe penalty and end the game early, or keep hunting for them?

The honourable way, if you have absolutely nothing positive to contribute to the match, would be to say "GG" and accept your fate and move on to the next drop and incur no penalties from any of your surrender suggestions.

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I'm offering a solution to a problem you guys asked for, forcing thinking back into a thoughtless game mode of 'mech smash' that does not totally screw one party.

Except when an early mass surrender screws the other party instead. Until PGI get their act together this game will never be much more than 'mech smash' I'm afraid, I wish it were different. Maybe this Attack/Defend mode they're supposedly working on will help that.

[Durant Carlyle]

It's the "without a severe penalty" that I have a problem with.

Is a death really that severe?? C'mon ... nobody's K/D ratio is that important. Not mine, not yours, not the President of the United States', not the Pope's ... nobody's.

Just take your death like a man, just like your 11 teammates did. You don't have to like it ... you just have to do it.

[GrizzlyViking]

This "problem" is the nature of Skirmish mode. There is already a solution for this and it is called Assault mode. People who do not like waiting should not play Skirmish mode. It's that simple.

[Peter2k]

GrizzlyViking, on 21 April 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

This "problem" is the nature of Skirmish mode. There is already a solution for this and it is called Assault mode. People who do not like waiting should not play Skirmish mode. It's that simple.

right except that we had this problem since assault mode was fleshed out like we have it today

also assault mode like it is today (well without turrets) was meant as a placeholder, like the xp system on the mechs

its a problem with K/D ratio, what other reason would u have not to just go out guns blazing

edit: we could also just say if you're afraid to die then don't play skirmish

Edited by Peter2k, 21 April 2014 - 12:56 PM.

[GrizzlyViking]

Peter2k, on 21 April 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

right except that we had this problem since assault mode was fleshed out like we have it today

also assault mode like it is today (well without turrets) was meant as a placeholder, like the xp system on the mechs

its a problem with K/D ratio, what other reason would u have not to just go out guns blazing

edit: we could also just say if you're afraid to die then don't play skirmish

We can say a lot of things, but playing what you do not like to play doesn't make sense when there are other options that alleviate the issue.