124 replies to this topic

[Lostdragon]

Roland, on 05 May 2014 - 08:14 PM, said:

They gave dates in order to deceive people into thinking that they had made actual progress in the development of community warfare.

But they didn't. That's why they continually missed those dates, and we repeatedly found out that they hadn't started development on it, despite having already promised to release it at various points.

Like I said, I can post up the timeline again if you like.

I wonder how many less Phoenix packs they would have sold if people had known at that time that they had not even STARTED working on CW, despite the fact that they were saying it would be released 90 days after launch.

[SharpTooth Steiner]

This was fun.

Edited by SharpTooth Steiner, 05 May 2014 - 09:04 PM.

[Zordicron]

Launch from beta timeframe was highly likely determined by IGP. Like most everything IMO. Pretty sure even clan stuff, I thought Paul himself hinted somewhere he didnt really want to start on them yet. Instead, he is given the command from money people that he will have another overlord sized pack of clans including new tech ready in 6 months so they can sell them in time for the schools out summertime.

CW? hmmmm, hard to microtransaction-ify that one.... eh we will let you guys put that into the game, but work on it on your own time. get those mechs finished and make sure those new consumables for anti lrm get in by august. Oh, by the way, did the LRM buff create enough hype to guarantee sales of the consumables? Good. Ok, you can roll it back, a little. Whats the meta right now, at least the percieved OP weapons? Autocannons? OK, make sure the next hero has those.

If you look, I mean really look, you can see just how each design goal is adjusted to accomodate money. You can see how each deadline gets adjusted so they can prioritize something for more money. Game developers dont do that. Investors and shareholders and marketing people that the developers report to(even though marketeers dont know anything about game design) those people do that. The dev team has it's faults. IMO, the financial shinanigans are not among those faults, they are just doing what the boss says at that point. it happens all over, in many games of many genre. It's the unspoken background meetings that nobody can tell the community about what for the bad press.

[Steven Dixon]

I'm a founder. I received everything I paid for (MCs, Founder mech, Premium time, ect). Even my loyalty points weren't promised until the feature was implemented. This isn't my first video game, I am well aware that a companies goals and expectations are simply hopes. I liked the things that they mentioned, I particularly liked that they were talking about how all weight classes will be viable in the game. Did I buy a Founder's pack because I believed that they would all be viable? No, they weren't selling that and I would have been foolish to believe it, it was simply a goal. In fact I'm quite surprised at how viable lighter mechs are (I figured that the game would be nothing but assaults with just a few noobs using light mechs).

PGI has never sold CW. Heck, even if they did they still wouldn't be legally liable. How do I know this? Because this sort of thing happens all of the time in video games and people have tried several times to sue (disclaimer: I've only studied US case law, I don't know international law, but I'm pretty sure the principles are the same). People have pre-ordered a game only to have it delayed by several months from the advertized official release date, the product is buggy and incomplete and might be missing features advertized on the box. This would seem to be a pretty good candidate for a lawsuit but they never win, why? The reason is actually pretty simple.

First off when you sue you basically are suing to recover damages, so you have to prove that you have suffered damages. The amount of money you put into the game is a clear cut 'damage' but almost all companies (including PGI) will offer refunds, subject to reasonable terms and conditions (reasonable as defined by the courts, this varies from country to country). So if they are willing to refund your money for what you have paid, then what have you suffered? Many of us feel burned and we feel like we have been victimized by companies at one point of our lives, but you have to reach a legal definition of suffering. For example, if you have had to undergo therapy (and you therapist will attest to it in court) as a result of CW not being released on time you could have a potential lawsuit.

Secondly, this is just the nature of the business. If you could show an intent to deceive then you might have the potential for a lawsuit. For example you could have a lawsuit if you found some memos like this:
Russ: Paul, make a post about how we will soon release CW and it will be awsome.
Paul: But Russ, we decided that CW would be too expensive so we wern't going to do it.
Russ: I know, muahahaha. Just lie to them, they are just cattle, I wants all the moneis!!!!!
Otherwise good luck. The courts realize that in the real world of software development that these things happen and it very rarely is for nefarious reasons.

If you really feel burned by PGI, use this as a learning lesson because this sort of thing happens all of the time. I'm a supporter of Star Citizen, but I don't expect half of the things they have promised (except for the things I have literally paid for, like my ship). All of the dreams and visions for a game that is going to be fun for PVP players and PVE players and players playing solo, ect are just dreams (hopefully they will come true, but I take it all with a grain of salt). If you are really mad about it, don't bother going to PGI. Instead contact your local politician, you actually might be able to convince them that this is something that could get them votes.


**And just as a side note, make sure to read the EULA you sign. If you didn't, you should know that in virtually all online games like this you really aren't paying for much of anything. When you buy a mech for example you aren't buying a mech, rather you are paying money for PGI to flag your account to allow access to a mech. However EVERTHING in the game remains the sole property of PGI (or IGP). They actually could remove the mech the next day or replace it with another mech or simply delete your account and they would be completely in their legal rights to do it because you told them that they could (you hit agree in the EULA), they don't have to offer you a refund or anything. This has also been upheld by the courts as perfectly legal, at least for the time being (in the US at least, I know that EULAs are being questioned by some other countries). Bad press prevents companies from abusing this not lawsuits.

[SharpTooth Steiner]

John Archer, on 05 May 2014 - 08:55 PM, said:

Any particular reason why you have to be such a **** when the OP is just asking a question??

Yes. It was an indirect attack on the person in my quotes, so he could see how stoopid his argument for the founders promises not being kept would sound like when applied to the current situation... the clan mech packages.

[SharpTooth Steiner]

AUSwarrior24, on 05 May 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

Look, they used things such as CW to advertise the game from the get go. They've had multiple dates publicly released where they planned to release it. Not only did that not happen, they haven't even started on its development.

Remove yourself from my post if you would now say "But the team's too small, there's too much work!", or "They have to focus on things the community will spend cash on", or anything of that nature. That's all very well and good, and indeed all true, but the fact still remains...

... they lied. They advertised the game with certain features in mind, they haven't delivered, and it's uncertain whether they ever will. The game itself is great, fun, addictive; but it isn't what they promised. It smacks of false advertising. Deny it if you will, but the facts remain.

They have so little to do, just to cover their asses, just a little bs map to say there. We did it. Thats the community warfare we promised. Unfortunatly judging from the slideshow at launch, they are going to do just that. Release some garbage JUST to cover their ass and say WE DID IT!

Now why sharptooth, why would it take so long to make if they are just releasing a minimumly viable CW map to meet their legal obligations?

BEAUSE THEY HAVE ONE MORE PACKAGE TO SELL! THAT IS WHY IT IS COMING AFTER CLAN INVASION!

If they show us their hand right now, show us how crappy CW will actually be. Show us that they are just creating some dumb map with a few dumbass bonuses at the end of the match... NO ONE WILL BUY NO $500 DOLLAR CLAN MECH PACKAGES!

Just wait. After that last clan pack is delivered, CW will come out the doors 90 days later. Then a year later. The servers go dark and shut down.

This is my final prophecy.

Youve been warned.

Now enjoy your %500 dollar gold skin mech you suckers.

Still laughing out loud 3 years laeter.... bye for now


This... fits in my story so well...

Lostdragon, on 05 May 2014 - 08:55 PM, said:

I wonder how many less Phoenix packs they would have sold if people had known at that time that they had not even STARTED working on CW, despite the fact that they were saying it would be released 90 days after launch.

Thank you for sharing that. If this thread dosnt speak the truth. The rest of the PGI leg humpers. You deserve losing the rest of your hard earned money to a bunch of scan artists. There is no point trying to bring this game down no more.

The war is over.

Let the rest of the peopleplaying this enjoy their 12 vs 12 fps.

Edited by SharpTooth Steiner, 05 May 2014 - 09:09 PM.

[Zolaz]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 05 May 2014 - 10:01 PM, said:

The Bonus Modules are in the pipeline but have to still be implemented, balanced and tested internally with consideration of the intended gameplay effect and value of modules. As there is a great deal of testing to be done still around the Clan Mechs, and with package additions such as these modules intended to be value-added bonuses to the central core feature of the pre-order, which is those Clan Mechs: Final details on the modules will be among the last confirmed specifics of the Clan Collections packages.

The testing process may result in changes to current designs or values, and as such, we are not able to provide any more specific information at this time without running the risk of having to retract or modify that information later.

Hey Niko, I appreciate you popping on here and addressing my question, especially at 1am in the morning. Believe it or not, I really do. It is a surprise because PGI is normally in super secret silent mode on the Forums. I hope you dont get the silent treatment from your coworkers because you broke the code of silence. lol

However ...

What I dont understand is how PGI expects anyone to take anything ya'll say at face value any more. Ya'll want me to pay twice as much in a package as the previous two for mechs that are suppose to be twice as good but have been nerfed to similar. In the interest of goodwill, I wont go into all the broken promises and bad blood that PGI has created between its long term player base and your company.

When I put my money down for Founders and Phoenix I knew what I was getting. Now, a month and some change from release there are some things that are just a mystery. What makes the modules and medallions so game breaking that it is such a big deal? What really concerns me is that the only thing I can think of is that the Bonus Modules are exactly that. Extra modules that will be put on the Clan Mechs. If that is the case the P2W argument that has haunted MWO from closed beta days will finally be legitimate.

If ya'll want to keep the lights on and MWO a viable product, you might want to start talking and listening to your customers. If that means you need to tell your money guys that they are shooting themselves in the head, you might want to look into that.

[Joseph Mallan]

Zolaz, on 05 May 2014 - 04:56 PM, said:

When is PGI going to tell us what the Bonus Modules and Medallions do for the Clan Package? Does no one over at PGI know what they are going to do about a month out from their release? Does no one over at PGI want to tell us?

There has to be a reason this information is not being released.

There will be a tweet about it soon ™.

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 05 May 2014 - 10:01 PM, said:

The Bonus Modules are in the pipeline but have to still be implemented, balanced and tested internally with consideration of the intended gameplay effect and value of modules. As there is a great deal of testing to be done still around the Clan Mechs, and with package additions such as these modules intended to be value-added bonuses to the central core feature of the pre-order, which is those Clan Mechs: Final details on the modules will be among the last confirmed specifics of the Clan Collections packages.

The testing process may result in changes to current designs or values, and as such, we are not able to provide any more specific information at this time without running the risk of having to retract or modify that information later.

They will then be released and used in ways the DEVs did not foresee. I've done this before. It is how it will happen!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 May 2014 - 09:17 AM.

[FupDup]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 05 May 2014 - 10:01 PM, said:

The Bonus Modules are in the pipeline but have to still be implemented, balanced and tested internally with consideration of the intended gameplay effect and value of modules. As there is a great deal of testing to be done still around the Clan Mechs, and with package additions such as these modules intended to be value-added bonuses to the central core feature of the pre-order, which is those Clan Mechs: Final details on the modules will be among the last confirmed specifics of the Clan Collections packages.

The testing process may result in changes to current designs or values, and as such, we are not able to provide any more specific information at this time without running the risk of having to retract or modify that information later.

Thanks for the answer. However, it's important to point out that the Clan package is coming literally next month. If testing takes too much longer, the it'll already be "too late" to inform potential or actual customers of what they're getting before they've already gotten it. And if they've already gotten it, well, then there's not much left to tell them.


PS: Some basic details about previous and current "prototypes" for the modules might be nice, and it'll be hard for people to cry foul about it if you put it in big bold (comic sans for good measure?) letters that those designs were just brainstorms and not finalized. It'll give us something to discuss/theorycraft/flamewar over while we wait.

PPS: Oh, and if it's not asking too much, are there any plans regarding the Clan ERPPC yet? So far we the forumites have heard about what's going to happen with the Ultras, LBX, Lasers, LRMs, and SSRMs, but the CERPPC is still a mystery. I have quite a vested interest in this because the weapon is the centerpiece on my favorite Clan light mech, and I want to know how deadly the mech would be if I were going to buy it...

[SharpTooth Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 May 2014 - 01:34 AM, said:

There will be a tweet about it soon ™.


They will then be released and used in ways the DEVs did not foresee. I've done this before. It is how it will happen!

True dat

[Roland]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 05 May 2014 - 10:01 PM, said:

The Bonus Modules are in the pipeline but have to still be implemented, balanced and tested internally with consideration of the intended gameplay effect and value of modules. As there is a great deal of testing to be done still around the Clan Mechs, and with package additions such as these modules intended to be value-added bonuses to the central core feature of the pre-order, which is those Clan Mechs: Final details on the modules will be among the last confirmed specifics of the Clan Collections packages.

The testing process may result in changes to current designs or values, and as such, we are not able to provide any more specific information at this time without running the risk of having to retract or modify that information later.

So you're selling stuff, but don't really have any idea exactly what it is that you're selling.

Kind of like the faction medallions I got with my phoenix package?

[Iqfish]

Deathlike, on 05 May 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

It is the prevention of "foot in mouth" disease.

More importantly, those loyalty points... almost 7 months and counting amirite?

I must have been collecting a LOOOT of LP during this time!

[SharpTooth Steiner]

Roland, on 06 May 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

So you're selling stuff, but don't really have any idea exactly what it is that you're selling.

Kind of like the faction medallions I got with my phoenix package?

Its a mystery. Just like "where did bryans chin go?" lol

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Dymlos2003, on 05 May 2014 - 07:56 PM, said:

haha no... What sold people was a new mechwarrior game and that's what we got. There were lots of vids out when the founders were announced.

Speak for yourself mate.

There wasn't much out when founders was announced... you seem to have forgotten just what was out.

I was following this back in 2009, the first announcements used that MW 3015 trailer [what many of us took to calling the unreal tech demo vid that was posted earlier.] and screenshots of the Warhammer and Atlas and Jenner.

That got me intially interested. of course again, this was in 09, early still yet... and we heard no further news for quite some time. It was a couple of years later that the project changed rapidly into Mechwarrior Online due to no publisher being willing to pick up the 3015 project [sadly]

Finally, the first shots of mechs were shown, we had some actual, real, ingame screenshots and footage, and it looked amazing. This entire time, the 3015 trailer was still shown on the website.

Finally, Founders was announced not long after the first wave of closed beta invites went out. [I was in the second wave.]. I remember being hesitant about founders once I got into the beta... there was still tons of time for stuff to go wrong. So I didn't buy in, besides, I was in the beta, I didn't need to buy into it... and while I was enjoying the game... I wanted to see where things were going to go.

The first signs of trouble came just as they were about to push out open beta... There was a HUGE economy crash due to a "balance" pass. They were going to release with this hugely gimped economy, at a time when Repair/Rearm was still in the game. The entire closed beta forums erupted in a "NO WAIT!!!" mentality... and we pleaded them to keep the game in closed beta for atleast another month and make sure the economy issues we were seeing were not just sudden whiplash from making too much money, to such a meager ammount... that maybe it would feel fair after a week or so. THEN if it felt right they could push it out...

They relented... for a week. Returning us to pre-nerf economy, then a week later, they pushed the game into open beta...
Seeing this as a "well, at least they kinda listened." I snagged founders. I wanted to support a game I figured would eventually shape up.

It wasn't long after that, that I became disappointed in my investment. Month after month, issues persisted in the client. The classic "Fractal HUD" bug, which had been in since literally day one of closed beta... was becoming more and more common. several screwups with LRM's, Hit detection issues... you name it really.

So, then "Release" comes. Release was marked by the day they removed "Beta" from the MWO website. We actually, still didn't have one of the things that was promised to us at the time. See, buying into founders gave you the following [I'm going to use gold as the example here.]: 4 founders mechs with unique skin and paintjob[which they have since screwed up.]xp and cbill boost. 90 days premium time. Forum badge, name in the credits. and a certern amount of MC. [I forget how much.]

At time of "Release" There were no credits. Thus one of the pieces of content we were guarenteed in the purchase of the package was left out. [this has since been fixed.]

Then, there was a model change, They updated the geometry on the founders mechs. With this came a re-texture... and while the texture keeps in keeping with the original founder textures... when they allowed us to re-paint our founders mechs... they took away the unique paint. Which I personally find as a breech of contract. Though something I'm relatively willing to let slide as I have plenty of color's in my mechbay. But it's a case of "Hey, you bought this...but you can't have it anymore."

Big company's get in trouble for false advertising all the time. And you have to be vigilant not to get screwed over by company's. PGI is no different. If they offer a product [and yes, they are offering a product, which you buy. Even if it is a virtual product, it is STILL a product] and do not deliver on what they have offered. Then they should be held accountable.

We need more transparency with what we're getting. The original founders packs were VERY Transparent as to what we were getting... subsequent packs, such as Phoenix and Reinforcement... and now Clans, have been much less transparent. and that worries me.

Am I mad at having spent 120 on Legendary Founders? No, no I may have been upset at one time, but I've come to terms with having bought that pack. And I am considering the highest clan pack... but I'm once more remiss on going that far, because of the lack of Transparency in regards to features and goods offered here.

[DONTOR]

SharpTooth Steiner, on 05 May 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

Unless you see the legal documents... they can say the packs come with anything they want, expect when you pre-purchase... to be disappointed.

DAMN IT! Im going to be buying a disappointed Masakari?! Come on Masakari brighten up you're a beast!

[Dymlos2003]

Jade Kitsune, on 06 May 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

Speak for yourself mate.

There wasn't much out when founders was announced... you seem to have forgotten just what was out.

I was following this back in 2009, the first announcements used that MW 3015 trailer [what many of us took to calling the unreal tech demo vid that was posted earlier.] and screenshots of the Warhammer and Atlas and Jenner.

That got me intially interested. of course again, this was in 09, early still yet... and we heard no further news for quite some time. It was a couple of years later that the project changed rapidly into Mechwarrior Online due to no publisher being willing to pick up the 3015 project [sadly]

Finally, the first shots of mechs were shown, we had some actual, real, ingame screenshots and footage, and it looked amazing. This entire time, the 3015 trailer was still shown on the website.

Finally, Founders was announced not long after the first wave of closed beta invites went out. [I was in the second wave.]. I remember being hesitant about founders once I got into the beta... there was still tons of time for stuff to go wrong. So I didn't buy in, besides, I was in the beta, I didn't need to buy into it... and while I was enjoying the game... I wanted to see where things were going to go.

The first signs of trouble came just as they were about to push out open beta... There was a HUGE economy crash due to a "balance" pass. They were going to release with this hugely gimped economy, at a time when Repair/Rearm was still in the game. The entire closed beta forums erupted in a "NO WAIT!!!" mentality... and we pleaded them to keep the game in closed beta for atleast another month and make sure the economy issues we were seeing were not just sudden whiplash from making too much money, to such a meager ammount... that maybe it would feel fair after a week or so. THEN if it felt right they could push it out...

They relented... for a week. Returning us to pre-nerf economy, then a week later, they pushed the game into open beta...
Seeing this as a "well, at least they kinda listened." I snagged founders. I wanted to support a game I figured would eventually shape up.

It wasn't long after that, that I became disappointed in my investment. Month after month, issues persisted in the client. The classic "Fractal HUD" bug, which had been in since literally day one of closed beta... was becoming more and more common. several screwups with LRM's, Hit detection issues... you name it really.

So, then "Release" comes. Release was marked by the day they removed "Beta" from the MWO website. We actually, still didn't have one of the things that was promised to us at the time. See, buying into founders gave you the following [I'm going to use gold as the example here.]: 4 founders mechs with unique skin and paintjob[which they have since screwed up.]xp and cbill boost. 90 days premium time. Forum badge, name in the credits. and a certern amount of MC. [I forget how much.]

At time of "Release" There were no credits. Thus one of the pieces of content we were guarenteed in the purchase of the package was left out. [this has since been fixed.]

Then, there was a model change, They updated the geometry on the founders mechs. With this came a re-texture... and while the texture keeps in keeping with the original founder textures... when they allowed us to re-paint our founders mechs... they took away the unique paint. Which I personally find as a breech of contract. Though something I'm relatively willing to let slide as I have plenty of color's in my mechbay. But it's a case of "Hey, you bought this...but you can't have it anymore."

Big company's get in trouble for false advertising all the time. And you have to be vigilant not to get screwed over by company's. PGI is no different. If they offer a product [and yes, they are offering a product, which you buy. Even if it is a virtual product, it is STILL a product] and do not deliver on what they have offered. Then they should be held accountable.

We need more transparency with what we're getting. The original founders packs were VERY Transparent as to what we were getting... subsequent packs, such as Phoenix and Reinforcement... and now Clans, have been much less transparent. and that worries me.

Am I mad at having spent 120 on Legendary Founders? No, no I may have been upset at one time, but I've come to terms with having bought that pack. And I am considering the highest clan pack... but I'm once more remiss on going that far, because of the lack of Transparency in regards to features and goods offered here.

Actually. We had ingame screenshots, the GDC videos from March of that year, and the IGN videos. This is before ANY BETA. We knew how the game looked and played way before the founders. So this wall of text was just a bunch of hot air. (Just a rant)

Edited by Dymlos2003, 06 May 2014 - 02:56 PM.

[SharpTooth Steiner]

Dymlos2003, on 06 May 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

Actually. We had ingame screenshots, the GDC videos from March of that year, and the IGN videos. This is before ANY BETA. We knew how the game looked and played way before the founders. So this wall of text was just a bunch of hot air. (Just a rant)

Not everyone played way before the founders. It was a closed beta. So your post is just denial. lol

[Dymlos2003]

SharpTooth Steiner, on 06 May 2014 - 03:04 PM, said:

Not everyone played way before the founders. It was a closed beta. So your post is just denial. lol

Huh, where did I say anything about playing closed beta? This is all BEFORE the beta. Hence a bunch of posts saying they had barely any videos on the site and such is just a bunch of lies.

[SharpTooth Steiner]

DONTOR, on 06 May 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

DAMN IT! Im going to be buying a disappointed Masakari?! Come on Masakari brighten up you're a beast!

Well we dont know if it will be "disappointed". You'll just have to see.

Rhaythe, on 05 May 2014 - 04:20 AM, said:

Sigh.

It's called legalese for a reason (as I said). They never promised CW or VOIP anywhere. I'm guessing people saw the IGN article or a forum post where CW was detailed and their intentions were brought forth. So yes. A company can say what they damn-well please provided they use the right words. And CW was never promoted as a feature of the game, only as a direction or goal. If you can find one piece of evidence that PGI swears up and down with LEGAL BACKING that this game will have CW on X-date, I will retract everything. LEGAL BACKING. That does not mean a twitter or forum post.

Rhaythe, on 05 May 2014 - 03:44 AM, said:

Anything else, like VOIP or CW, were not promised to founders. If you buy into an early-access game *expecting* something, you should be prepared to be disappointed. You buy into early-access based on how the game is at the time and hope for improvement, not expecting it.

--------------------------------------------

Dymlos2003, on 06 May 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

Huh, where did I say anything about playing closed beta?

Dymlos2003, on 06 May 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

We knew how the game looked and played way before the founders.

Edited by SharpTooth Steiner, 06 May 2014 - 03:10 PM.

[RG Notch]

Dymlos2003, on 05 May 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

They didn't sell cw...

Also wouldn't be right if there wasn't the daily Zolaz troll thread.

LOL if they were selling it for real money you can damn well bet it wouldn't be late.