211 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Last night, while I still love my Summoner best, I honestly noticed no advantage, jumping or agility-wise over the TWolf, which is a problem. Perhaps the paper numbers tomorrow will tell a different tale, but that is my impression.

One thought I would have....is that the Timber Wolf-S uses Pod JJs (as does the Kit Fox)....whereas the Summoner and Nova have integrated ones........

Perhaps give Pod Mounted JJs less thrust and distance than the Mechs that come stock? Also use a gimped ariel turn rate, in line with the Victor's current one.

*Also, Mechs using Jump Pods would take more fall damage, as their legs were not reinforced for jumping to begin with. Or at least should not be able to mount the Damage Reduction Module. (Idea that popped in my head after posting the OP)

No it's not canon, but neither is a Highlander with 5 JJs, Spider with 12 or a Griffin with 7. But it would make sense that a pod mounted version would be less efficient than a hardwired one engineered into the system, wouldn't it?

It would still allow the Timber Wolf S to have it's niche, while not making it the no brainer Torso Pods to mount that they currently are. It would also give a notable separation between the overall roles of the Summoner and the TWolf, with the Summoner now enjoying a notable mobility advantage (which due to lower mass, locked Endo Steel and such, is the only realistic area it can outperform the TWolf).

This also sets a nice tone for future "jump pod" equipped mechs to not simply outclass their fixed JJ brethren.

Thoughts?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 16 June 2014 - 01:16 PM.

[FupDup]

I'd personally like better pod quirks for the Thor, because it has more hard-baked weaknesses than most of the other Clan mechs right now (FF without Endo, big engine, needs more armor than stock, maybe too many jets [somewhere around 3 would be ideal most of the time], and very limited hardpoints).

Or we could just swing the mighty nerfbat, just like the Battlemasters 1G and 3M got for having more hardpoints than the other variants...

Edited by FupDup, 16 June 2014 - 12:24 PM.

[DONTOR]

There are alot of mechs that make others obsolete, enough people like the Summoner that it will still get used alot. Better pod qurks would be cool though.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 16 June 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

I'd personally like better pod quirks for the Thor, because it has more hard-baked weaknesses than most of the other Clan mechs right now (FF without Endo, big engine, needs more armor than stock, maybe too many jets [somewhere around 3 would be ideal most of the time], and very limited hardpoints).

Or we could just swing the mighty nerfbat, just like the Battlemasters 1G and 3M got for having more hardpoints than the other variants...

DONTOR, on 16 June 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

There are alot of mechs that make others obsolete, enough people like the Summoner that it will still get used alot. Better pod qurks would be cool though.

While I agree, that helps...only the Summoner (which needs better quirks, regardless). But I am referring to a systemic issue I think will be a problem across the board with Clan Mechs, with almost any version with Pod JJs just being better choice than Hardwired, since you get all the benefits, but none of the drawbacks. (like ability to remove them if want)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 16 June 2014 - 12:31 PM.

[Marmon Rzohr]

I think they both work well. I wouldn't say the TW obsoletes the Summoner. The Summoner has it's own place. They actually play quite a bit different. The timber wolf plays like an agile heavy - quite a bit like a bigger, better Catapult. The summoner on the other hand plays like a medium on steroids.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

The Summoner could also benefit from 360 degree torso twist to differentiate it from the TW. IIRC, it had that in MW4. I'm not sure if MWO's game engine allows torsos to do a full-on Linda Blair, but it would be fun if it could.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 16 June 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

While I agree, that helps...only the Summoner (which needs better quirks, regardless). But I am referring to a systemic issue I think will be a problem across the board with Clan Mechs, with almost any version with Pod JJs just being better choice than Hardwired, since you get all the benefits, but none of the drawbacks. (like ability to remove them if want)

It's an issue across the board with both factions. The sacrifices to mount JJs generally are far less than what you gain out of it, even if you aren't being cheesy and only using 1 jet. However, I think this is an issue with the movement code system rather than jets. I actually remember a point in the past when jets were considered not good enough. The inability to step over rocks the size of an Atlas' foot probably has something to do with that...

[Koniks]

Bishop Steiner, on 16 June 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

While I agree, that helps...only the Summoner (which needs better quirks, regardless). But I am referring to a systemic issue I think will be a problem across the board with Clan Mechs, with almost any version with Pod JJs just being better choice than Hardwired, since you get all the benefits, but none of the drawbacks. (like ability to remove them if want)

3 decent options for balancing them. 1) Using the quirk system to balance components across chassis, not just variants. So the TBR-S would get some additional negative quirks and all of the Summoners would get some additional positive quirks. 2) Giving the Summoner (and probably the Nova) the option to remove some of the jump jets and/or heat sinks. 3) Making hardwired jump jets both run cooler and provide better mobility than pod mounted jump jets..

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 16 June 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

It's an issue across the board with both factions. The sacrifices to mount JJs generally are far less than what you gain out of it, even if you aren't being cheesy and only using 1 jet. However, I think this is an issue with the movement code system rather than jets. I actually remember a point in the past when jets were considered not good enough. The inability to step over rocks the size of an Atlas' foot probably has something to do with that...

Yes, but IS mechs don't have the option of taking traditional NON-jumpers, and just slapping on JJ Pods (true not all clan mechs do either, yet) allowing the best of both worlds.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mizeur, on 16 June 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

3 decent options for balancing them. 1) Using the quirk system to balance components across chassis, not just variants. So the TBR-S would get some additional negative quirks and all of the Summoners would get some additional positive quirks. 2) Giving the Summoner (and probably the Nova) the option to remove some of the jump jets and/or heat sinks. 3) Making hardwired jump jets both run cooler and provide better mobility than pod mounted jump jets..

1) I dislike the first as the sole basis, only because it means a chassis by chassis review to be done, and anytime a new mech is released with possible JJ Pods, you then have to go and do balance reviews between it and all it's siblings with hardwired JJs. Piecemeal balancing usually causes more issues than it's worth.

2) I don't like the second because a locked core is a huge part of the Omni system. Breaking any of that sets a bad precedent. I know most of the other GBs I spoke with are against seeing the Locked Core systems tampered with. Hardwired, needs to stay hardwired, period.

3) I think that's what I am essentially recommending.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 16 June 2014 - 12:46 PM.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 16 June 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

Yes, but IS mechs don't have the option of taking traditional NON-jumpers, and just slapping on JJ Pods (true not all clan mechs do either, yet) allowing the best of both worlds.

The pod swapping certain exasperates the issue, but the issue of jumpers versus non jumpers has been around for a while.

[Khobai]

The biggest problem with the Thor is the lack of Endo. Theres absolutely no advantage to not having Endo and its a loss of 3.5 tons of pod space. So any quirks you give the Thor need to compensate it for that loss of 3.5 tons... in other words they have to be pretty good quirks.

And for anyone who doesnt think the Mad Cat needs its S torsos nerfed, I completely disagree. Because right now theres absolutely no reason NOT to use an S side torso, which indicates the S side torso is outright better than the other side torso options. If all three side torsos were equal than you would see all three used roughly equally. The fact you see the S torsos significantly more is a tell-tale sign that its imbalanced. The S torsos definitely need a nerf. The jumpjet capability they give is way too good for the seemingly insignificant drawbacks that come with it.

So theres two seperate things that were discussing. Theres balancing the Thor vs the Madcat. But theres also balancing the Prime, C, and S side torsos of the MadCat so all three are used equally. Its game design 101: if you give players choices, make all the choices equal, or just streamline the game and completely remove choice altogether. Theres nothing worse in a game than the illusion of choice. its like playing rock paper scissor where rock beats both paper and scissors. What do you play every time? Rock... because you can NEVER lose. Even though you still have the choice of paper and scissors, that choice is an illusion. Just like the Madcat's prime and C side torsos, using them in both side torsos is just gimping your MadCat because of how good JJs are.

Edited by Khobai, 16 June 2014 - 01:29 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 16 June 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

The pod swapping certain exasperates the issue, but the issue of jumpers versus non jumpers has been around for a while.

so because it has been around, we...ignore it?

Khobai, on 16 June 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

The biggest problem with the Thor is the lack of Endo. Theres absolutely no advantage to not having Endo and its a loss of 3.5 tons of pod space. So any quirks you give the Thor need to compensate it for that loss of 3.5 tons... in other words they have to be pretty good quirks.

And for anyone who doesnt think the Mad Cat needs its S torsos nerfed, I completely disagree. Because right now theres absolutely no reason NOT to use an S torso, which indicates the S torso is outright better than the other side torso options. If all three options were equal than you would see all three used roughly equally. The fact you see the S torsos significantly more is a tell-tale sign that its imbalanced. So the S torsos absolutely need a nerf. The jumpjet capability they give is way too good.

Even if you drop the JJs, they have dual Missile slots and a ballistic, each side. Pretty freaking handy, especially since the arms tend to be energy oriented, so you will normally want lower heat torso weapons. And JJs or not, Higher mounted Ballistics than the arms allow.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 16 June 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

so because it has been around, we...ignore it?

No.

What I'm saying to is solve the underlying issue of JJs being better than not having JJs at nearly all times. Right now, if you have the ability to mount jets you use those jets, all day erryday. It should be more of a choice rather than a must have. This would kill two birds with one stone: solve the current Clan issue of everyone taking the JJ variant pods all the time, and also help out the Inner Sphere non jumpers.

Edited by FupDup, 16 June 2014 - 12:56 PM.

[Serpieri]

BPV was used - it would have a place - that's how mechs are balanced - but since the mech is just lumped into the heavy category - without giving it something that the Timberwolf doesn't have - you take the heavier chassis. And Clanners know that - they are masters of bidding.


edit - give it ECM - it now has a place

Edited by Serpieri, 16 June 2014 - 12:57 PM.

[1453 R]

Hmm...that is an interesting notion.

Say we get a set of positive quirks across all Summoner (and Nova) leg omnipods that provides, say...+10% more lift per leg equipped, as well as -10% fall damage to each said leg? Because frankly I have a hard time calling what we've got in game jump jets. The agonizingly slow ascent does no one any favors; maybe letting Omnis with hardwired jets get some extra pep in their aerial step could be an interesting way to emphasize their mobility. Yes, it's a stopgap, but it's also a fairly easily implemented stopgap rather than a broad, sweeping review of the entirety of the jump jet system. We may well benefit from that, but are you Commodity Warfare people really prepared to see CW pushed back for even an extra week or two for a JJ review?

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 16 June 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

No.

What I'm saying to is solve the underlying issue of JJs being better than not having JJs at nearly all times. Right now, if you have the ability to mount jets you use those jets, all day erryday. It should be more of a choice rather than a must have. This would kill two birds with one stone: solve the current Clan issue of everyone taking the JJ variant pods all the time, and also help out the Inner Sphere non jumpers.

Not entirely. Right now due to the Poptart Meta you do. That is only partially a JJ issue. Reduce the overall efficacy of potarting and JJ use will diminish exponentially. But that is a difference tissue, while related, to this one on this post.

Honestly, I can't see where my suggestion hurts anything but the Twolf S addiction. But I see it making a huge difference in the decision between to choose a true Jumper or Not, while still allowing Clanner who want to use the Jjs for extra terrain mobility to still use their pod JJs.

What it does is remove the no brainer category between a Twolf S and a Summoner. (I'm one of those guys who will probably run a Summoner regardless, but competitively, it is no contest to anyone objectively comparing the two)

[Khobai]

Quote

In REALITY TWolf would have the maneuvering advantage.

In reality the TWolf would collapse under its own weight. Its like propping a 60 ton abrahms tank up on mechanical stilts. Good luck with that.

People need to just give up applying any kindve realism to Battletech. Because the only thing that explains how mechs work in Battletech is "space magic"

Edited by Khobai, 17 June 2014 - 10:56 AM.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 16 June 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

Not entirely. Right now due to the Poptart Meta you do. That is only partially a JJ issue. Reduce the overall efficacy of potarting and JJ use will diminish exponentially. But that is a difference tissue, while related, to this one on this post.

Pooptarting is one dimension of the issue, but not the only dimension. Even on brawler or all-rounder builds, having the ability to jump can make or break a match.

Bishop Steiner, on 16 June 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

Honestly, I can't see where my suggestion hurts anything but the Twolf S addiction. But I see it making a huge difference in the decision between to choose a true Jumper or Not, while still allowing Clanner who want to use the Jjs for extra terrain mobility to still use their pod JJs.

What it does is remove the no brainer category between a Twolf S and a Summoner. (I'm one of those guys who will probably run a Summoner regardless, but competitively, it is no contest to anyone objectively comparing the two)

I'm still trying to figure out if it's an issue of the Thor being not good enough, or the Timbie S being too good. As an example of the same logic, the Commando is almost always better than the Locust. Does that make the Commie too good, or the Lolcust not good enough? We'd have to compare both of the mechs' performance to every other mech for both factions other than each other, to eliminate the lurking variables. I don't have a solid answer at this time because I only played both the Timbie and Thor for a short time during the PTS.

[Bishop Steiner]

Marack Drock, on 16 June 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

Timber Wolf is an advantage by awesomeness alone. Timber Wolf is my baby. Timber Wolf is the best mech of all worlds. 2 LRM 20s, 2 ERLLasers, 2 ERMedLasers, 2 MGuns! Makes Summoner look wimpy. Summoner only has an advantage when there is lots of cover.

I am not lying and I will provide a screen shot if necessary, I killed a Summoner, Stormcrow, and Nova in one match IN MY HUNCHBACK. Summoner is good only when it is not seen because right now it is easy to hit the CT every time, it can be blown apart from all the ammo, has no JJ advantage because Cry engine has physics base and JJs that maneuverable are not physically possible unless PGI is going to do a lot of changing and develop Clan JJs, and all in all Timber Wolf is just a more rounded out design.


If I had a sense of humor I'd laugh. In REAL LIFE a Timber Wolf would be more agile because of its chicken walker design which allows the mech to keep its balance without 30% more calculation and gyro allocation. Ever wonder why cats, dogs, and other under leg bipedal animals can move so much faster and almost never fall? Because the under legs allow for a longer stride while maintaining the same CG where as our legs require us to move our hips over each foot to move. In REALITY TWolf would have the maneuvering advantage.

If cats and dogs were actually "chicken walkers...(.in fact, if chicken were for that matter)" you almost would be on to something.

So Go look up the difference between a reverse Plantigrade (which is what your Twolf is) and an actual Digitigrade (Such as the Nova Cat), before you want to harp on the engineering advantages.

Also Cats and Dogs have the stability advantage because they are quad walkers.

FupDup, on 16 June 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

Pooptarting is one dimension of the issue, but not the only dimension. Even on brawler or all-rounder builds, having the ability to jump can make or break a match.

And I'm trying to keep THIS Topic on track for the topic on had, in the OP, not side issues, so can we maybe focus on pros and cons of the OP?