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Gauss: Still O.p? Let's Discuss

Balance Weapons

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#1 Jazzbandit1313

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 07:16 PM

Ever since the clans were introduced, we have been seeing a lot of folks cram dual gauss rifles in whatever they can. This is because, obviously, the Direwhales and Warpigeons have good HP layouts for it. There's finally a couple of assault dual separate ballistic mechs, and they are both clam mechs. I believe that is what made the push back to dual gauss builds. Now, this isn't to say there weren't any pre-clan patch. There were plenty, but after the invasion, I'm seeing more and more IS and Clam dual gauss'ers. Kitties, Jagers, Phracts and what have you. (and the occasional gausscicada) The amount of DW and WH with dual gauss and some sort of energy layout is at least 30%-40% from what i see. (I play at least 5-10 rounds per day)

Now I'm not here to complain about gauss and the way it's implemented in the game. I think, overall, it's a (sorta) well balanced weapon. I've used the early, no-charge gauss and seen how overpowered it was, so I do have a point of reference when it comes to gauss balance.

Today when i was dropping with A. Winter, I (just for kicks) mounted a couple gauss to my Phract 3D and headed to Alpine. It was almost as if gauss had never changed to a charge mechanic, and was still easy as ever to use. The pros well outweigh the cons for this weapon, especially in a DW or WH where they have plenty of other armaments if a GR gets destroyed. I was averaging 600 damage, 3 kills, 6 assists per round. Not spectacular, but still pretty damn good. It seems to me that gauss is still slightly easier to use than PGI intended in the first place. The charge mechanic was a hard thing to learn to use efficiently, at first, but now that all the griping about it is over, it's really not that hard to use. In some cases, it proved more useful than the old gauss click to shoot, as it helps me center my shot(s) when sniping. During my gameplay, it seemed so satisfyingly easy to peak a corner with the right side of my phract and pop a couple of tungsten slugs into my enemy lightning quick, then retreat. Now I may be biased because I am fairly vigilant when it comes to protecting my torsos and spreading the damage, so I might have a little better survivability than the average gauss-boater. In pair with some PPC's (or a singular) Gauss is still the pinpoint king (taking into account all ranges)

Before my own opinions about change with gauss, lets lists the pros and cons of this weapon:

Pros:
-15 damage
-Huge Range
-High projectile speed
-Negligible heat
-Relatively good ammo/ton
-Relatively small amount of occupied slots compared to similar-damage weapons

Cons:
-Expensive
-Easiest weapon to be crit and destroyed
-Once destroyed, explosion mechanic
-Relatively heavy


Grey area: (Not Pros or Cons, but worthy notes)
-Charge mechanic (I find it useful, IMO)
-Inability to fire more than 2 rifles at once
-Same recycle time as its oafish brother, the AC/20


Let's look at some of these cons up close.

Expensive - Most players will be able to grind out 600K or 1.2M C-bills within a couple hours, so it is fairly attainable for any player. This is kind of a temporary con if you're poor.

Easiest Weapon to be Crit and Destroyed - Like i said above, it is fairly easy to protect your fragile gauss rifles if you know how to move your mouse from right to left. Heck, i guarantee 20%-40% of players don't even really aim for a specific place when fighting a mech, let alone a gauss wielding mech. Obviously more skilled players will notice a gauss and literally hunt that part of the enemy mech until its gone. Maybe I've just been picking the right fights during my 25-30 game exposé/experiment with dual gauss boating, but it seems that they are rarely destroyed more often than any other component of my mech.

Relatively Heavy - Is anyone honestly going to complain about 5-10 KPH being traded in for dual gauss? Its the perfect trade-off for sniping because you really don't move that much anyway.

To me, the explosion mechanic is the only real threat and serious con of the gauss rifle, leaving the pros to heavily outweigh the con(s)

This here is my main quarrel with this weapon. Being a long time player of this game, Finding a choke point with a couple enemies in it and pumping several volleys of gauss into their arms and CT's was just a bit too easy and quick. There may be some people that think the gauss rifle is the single hardest weapon in the game to use, and that may be true for you. But after extensive use, I guarantee any player with a decent skill set can manage using the gauss rifle very efficiently and quite effectively without many drawbacks)

Now this is where your interpretation comes into play. Did PGI mean the gauss rifle to be a long range ONLY support mech? Did they expect it to become the bane of all hill-peakers' torsos everywhere?

I'd like to brainstorm here. The best idea I've come up with for balancing this weapon perfectly, is to give energy weapons a slight nerf during and slightly after firing a gauss or two (two would compound the effect) Let's have gauss rifles do more than just dim the lights in the cabin and make a funky noise. I think that during charge up of a gauss rifle and for 2-3 seconds after firing, energy weapon damage from the same mech should be nerfed about 15%-20% This allows gauss to be a more risky weapon to fire, as a light could sneak up, making the fight a bit tougher due to lowered energy damage. Also, PPC's combo damage would be slightly reduced, making the insanely easy-pinpoint alpha a bit less, well let's be honest, overpowered. I mean come on, torso cherry red armor from peeking once and not seeing the DW 900 M out? PGI PLS

Besides a slight energy nerf during use, I believe a higher recycle time of 4.5-5 seconds would be good for balance. Twin gauss allows you to throw a ridiculous amount of no-heat damage downrange pretty darn quickly. The recycle and charge may seem like an eternity for some, but I felt it was a bit too fast to be balanced.

Just anther idea, why not make the charge time 1 second and the hold time 1 second. Currently it is .75 and 1.25. This would clearly make the weapon harder to use, and force the player to use the charge mechanic more efficiently. Seeing as there is a 1.25 second hold time right now, with fast enough leg movement (Jager or Phract) you could pop off shots as easy and quickly as you please from many angles. Just ready your shot while peeking, then let go while reversing. This is not the way that PGI intended the charge mechanic to work, as the peeking method above makes the gauss rifle seem like its old self again. (insta-shot)

These proposed cons would be unavoidable, unlike most of the cons explained above.

Anyway, I digress as this has officially become a TL:DR post. I hope we can discuss this issue and brainstorm ideas about the Gauss Rifle and it's current state of balance within MWO. Thanks for reading.

Sincerely,

A pissed off Awesome pilot with no side torso armor 1 minute into the game

P.S. that was only partially sarcastic

Edited by Jazzbandit1313, 29 July 2014 - 08:05 PM.


#2 Sug

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 07:24 PM

I couldn't.

#3 Jazzbandit1313

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 07:28 PM

View PostSug, on 29 July 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

I couldn't.

please elaborate

#4 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 07:41 PM

Gauss has never been OVER Powered. It's just been Powerful.

#5 Jazzbandit1313

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 07:50 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 29 July 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

Gauss has never been OVER Powered. It's just been Powerful.

how so? compared tp all other ballistic weapons (high heat, varying recycle times and ranges), it's the best bang for your buck (weight) considering all of its pros, and negligible cons. A little bit too much bang for your buck. in fact.

#6 Khobai

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 07:51 PM

Gauss in of itself is no more overpowered than PPCs.

Its the combination of weapons doing 30+ pinpoint damage thats overpowered.

#7 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 07:51 PM

View PostJazzbandit1313, on 29 July 2014 - 07:50 PM, said:

how so? compared tp all other ballistic weapons (high heat, varying recycle times and ranges), it's the best bang for your buck (weight) considering all of its pros, and negligible cons. A little bit too much bang for your buck. in fact.

If you hit it it blows up so its a bit of a glass hammer. I did say it was powerful, I just do not believe it is to powerful for the tonnage.

#8 The Dreaded Baron B Killer

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 07:52 PM

View PostJazzbandit1313, on 29 July 2014 - 07:50 PM, said:

how so? compared tp all other ballistic weapons (high heat, varying recycle times and ranges), it's the best bang for your buck (weight) considering all of its pros, and negligible cons. A little bit too much bang for your buck. in fact.


yeah until 1:00 into the match and a PPC hits your gauss and takes it out... and it explodes.

Add the charge up mechanic to it and it's got enough cons to to balance the pros. how many times have u charged a shot up only to find the dude took cover before you could get the shot off?

#9 Jazzbandit1313

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 07:53 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 29 July 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

If you hit it it blows up so its a bit of a glass hammer. I did say it was powerful, I just do not believe it is to powerful for the tonnage.

that con is easily discounted due to proper torso twist and protection of the weapon itself.

View PostKhobai, on 29 July 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

Gauss in of itself is no more overpowered than PPCs.

Its the combination of weapons doing 30+ pinpoint damage thats overpowered.

which is why the energy weapon nerf would prove very useful in balancing pinpoint damage including gauss.

Edited by Jazzbandit1313, 29 July 2014 - 07:53 PM.


#10 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 07:54 PM

View PostKhobai, on 29 July 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

Gauss in of itself is no more overpowered than PPCs.

Its the combination of weapons doing 30+ pinpoint damage thats overpowered.

Only cause its pin point. And i will continue to disagree that 30 damage is to powerful of itself. The Rate of fire also has a impact on how painful it is. 2.5 times the rate of fire makes it hurt a bit more than a 15 point hit on TT!

#11 Jazzbandit1313

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 07:55 PM

View PostBaronBastardKiller, on 29 July 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:


yeah until 1:00 into the match and a PPC hits your gauss and takes it out... and it explodes.

Add the charge up mechanic to it and it's got enough cons to to balance the pros. how many times have u charged a shot up only to find the dude took cover before you could get the shot off?

well number one, As stated elsewhere, the explosive effect can be easily negated by proper care of said rifle by torso twist and distributing damage evenly over your mech.

number two, maybe 15% of the time. I'm quite good with timing shots and what not, and it's fairly easy to learn for a newer player.

Edited by Jazzbandit1313, 29 July 2014 - 07:55 PM.


#12 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 07:56 PM

View PostJazzbandit1313, on 29 July 2014 - 07:53 PM, said:

that con is easily discounted due to proper torso twist and protection of the weapon itself.
No it doesn't! Having more than one HP does, But a hit can blow up the gun Twisting protects all weapons so twisting isn't a good counter argument. :huh:

#13 Khobai

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 07:57 PM

Quote

Only cause its pin point. And i will continue to disagree that 30 damage is to powerful of itself.


And youd be wrong. There is a reason hardly anyone wants to play lights or mediums right now. Because its not fun getting hit for 30-50 damage and losing all your armor in one hit.

#14 Jazzbandit1313

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 08:00 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 29 July 2014 - 07:56 PM, said:

No it doesn't! Having more than one HP does, But a hit can blow up the gun Twisting protects all weapons so twisting isn't a good counter argument. :huh:

no, actually it is, because even if it protects all weapons, it still applies t0 the gauss rifle. Your argument is hazy. I mean even if we ignored torso twist, my gauss rifle(s) almost never get destroyed after a few average hits. It would take a dual ac/20 or another ppc/gauss combo to one hit my gauss rifle. (my armor is always full on any component housing a gauss rifle as everyone's should be IMO). They are the most fragile weapon, but far from being a "glass cannon"

Edited by Jazzbandit1313, 29 July 2014 - 08:01 PM.


#15 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 08:33 PM

View PostJazzbandit1313, on 29 July 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

no, actually it is, because even if it protects all weapons, it still applies t0 the gauss rifle. Your argument is hazy. I mean even if we ignored torso twist, my gauss rifle(s) almost never get destroyed after a few average hits. It would take a dual ac/20 or another ppc/gauss combo to one hit my gauss rifle. (my armor is always full on any component housing a gauss rifle as everyone's should be IMO). They are the most fragile weapon, but far from being a "glass cannon"

YMMV, I don't argue the Gauss is powerful. I argue it being OP and needing yet another Nerf. Its semi fragile, It has a trigger delay, its darn heavy! It has been a Great weapon for 30 years, I'm supporting keeping it as is and I no longer use it, as the trigger delay and my old reflexes just don't mesh in combat well. Its fine as is, really.

#16 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 08:38 PM

View PostKhobai, on 29 July 2014 - 07:57 PM, said:


And youd be wrong. There is a reason hardly anyone wants to play lights or mediums right now. Because its not fun getting hit for 30-50 damage and losing all your armor in one hit.

Not my problem. You are in a light Mech you are meant to be fragile Kho. I carry weapons that weigh up to half as much as a Light. Lights have lost their armor in one AC20 or Gauss hit forever, but MW:O players are to fragile to accept it. You and I will disagree till the end of time on this topic sir. We are of two different schools of thought. So every time you bring up your position I will counter it with mine.

30 damage here is the same as 15 on TT. So what a single Gauss does takes 2 here, I am not fearful of that cause it is what I have faced for almost 30 years.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 29 July 2014 - 08:40 PM.


#17 Jazzbandit1313

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 08:44 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 29 July 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

YMMV, I don't argue the Gauss is powerful. I argue it being OP and needing yet another Nerf. Its semi fragile, It has a trigger delay, its darn heavy! It has been a Great weapon for 30 years, I'm supporting keeping it as is and I no longer use it, as the trigger delay and my old reflexes just don't mesh in combat well. Its fine as is, really.

again, for the millinoth time, the cons you are using in your argument have been dismissed as not valid above. Heavy weapons are always preferred to slightly decreased speed and trigger time is something you can get better with. therefore not really a con. maybe to u they are, but u just dont use it enough

#18 CocoaJin

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 08:45 PM

I like the idea of the energy weapon brown out. It doesn't diminish the Gauss, but makes its use a give and take trade off...I like trade-offs for highly effective items, provided its sound and rooted in intuitive, natural laws.

I think every good thing needs a bit of a dark side, it goes a long away in minimizing exploits, over use and OP status.

It also helps to minimize performance creep, where we get a game full of run away improvements.

#19 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 08:48 PM

View PostJazzbandit1313, on 29 July 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

again, for the millinoth time, the cons you are using in your argument have been dismissed as not valid above. Heavy weapons are always preferred to slightly decreased speed and trigger time is something you can get better with. therefore not really a con. maybe to u they are, but u just dont use it enough
Funny cause I seem to be dismissing your arguments as well sir.
Still does not validate calling it an OP weapon sir. Powerful Yes, OP No. You are right though, I stopped using after it was given the trigger delay. There are no OP weapons in this game, just players who are afraid of their toon dying.

#20 Jazzbandit1313

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 08:54 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 29 July 2014 - 08:48 PM, said:

Funny cause I seem to be dismissing your arguments as well sir.
Still does not validate calling it an OP weapon sir. Powerful Yes, OP No. You are right though, I stopped using after it was given the trigger delay. There are no OP weapons in this game, just players who are afraid of their toon dying.

even if you cant agree with me on that,you must at least be open to the fact that ppc+gauss pinpoint is ridiculous. If you dont even remotely think that, then there is no point in arguing as our viewpoints are completely opposite





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