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The Clans Were Overnerfed. Some Stats.


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#1 valrond

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 10:41 AM

I think it's time for PGI to stop nerfing the clans before they are useless. They are on there way there, with only a few chassis being worthy of playing already, but if they continue to be nerfed, they'll be even worse than IS mechs, despite being a lot pricier.

Clan mechs NEED energy weapons. And not because of lore or anything, or even the hardpoints (in some cases, it's all you can field), but because they have a lot less weight for weapons. Yes, you heard that right, they have less room for weapons than IS mechs. The only one that doesn't fit this is the DireWolf, but it is a very slow and clumsy whale.

Here are the stats for all current clan mechs, and the projected max free of some of the upcoming clan mechs (the heavier mechs). All the stats have been taken from smurfy, as it is a lot easier and faster than using the mechlab. All mechs were stripped of everything then put max armor. For the IS mechs, I tried to use the same engine as the clans, or the closest available, they only have the engines, max armor and 10 heatsinks. In the third column, I put alternative engines, closer to what we can see in the matches, some of them standard engines.
Finally, for the upcoming clan mechs, I used inner sphere mechs of the same tonage, with xl engines of the same size, and the engine full of heatsinks, as indicated in the wave 2 page. I reduced the 20% of the armor for ferro fibrous in the mechs that have it.

Here are the results:

Posted Image

As you can see, once you move into the medium territory, IS has a weight advantage. Even an standard 250 Hunchy has 5 more tons for weapons than a Nova.
And don't get me started on the heavies. The Summoner with 20 tons available, vs the cataphract than even with an XL340 has room for 28 tons, and the more usual XL300 has room room for 37 tons of weapons, half the weight of the mech.

Looking at the upcoming mechs, the 80 ton Gargoyle can put even less weapons than a 55 ton Stormcrow.

What this means is that Clan mechs are forced to use 1 big ballistic gun (Gauss, AC10 or 20), or too small ones (AC5, maybe 3 AC2), so the rest of weapons must be lasers and missiles.

Now, Clan big weapons are slightly lighter than IS (1 ton for large lasers and PPCs, and small ballistics like AC2 and 5, and 2 tons for AC10-20, 3 tons for Gauss). Even with that small advantage, you can't put 2 gauss and enough ammo for anything lighter than a Warhawk, while you can put 2 of them on a 65 ton Jagermech or 70 ton Cataphract.

So, as we have seem, only the two bigger clan mechs can rely on ballistic weapons as their main armament. That FORCES the clan player to use energy weapons and missiles. Now, it would be fine if energy weapons were good and effective, but in MWO lasers have never been very effective. PPC were before the speed nerf, but not anymore. After the huge heat nerf (the range nerf was granted), mechs that were already running very hot need to put even less of the few weight available to weapons.


I support the proposal for enabling endo/ff in mech clans. The only advantage they have now is the slightly better chance of survival with the XL engine, and the low weight missiles. Lasers are less heat efficient than IS, Autocannons are worse and you can't use more than 1 big or 2 small ones, and PPCs are so slow that it's very hard to hit a long range target. On top of that, IS mechs can have up to twice the weight in weapons than Clan mechs.

However, I think it should be very restricted. First, as per the Omnimech construction rules, if you modify the mech, it's no longer an Omnimech. Once you activate once of the modifications, than mech may never change Omnipods again. A big warning should appear when you try to do this modification. But, in order to avoid mixmaxing, taking the best omnipod hardpoints a mech has, it should ONLY be applied to one of the variants with the standard omnipods.

That will give to option to clan players to get some of the benefits of endo/ff and reduce the weight difference with the IS mechs at the expense of making the mech a normal mech with suboptimal hardpoint configuration.

Edited by valrond, 23 September 2014 - 01:20 AM.


#2 stjobe

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 10:49 AM

So how do you explain the latest round of IS vs Clan testing then? You know, the one in which Clans still won 73% of matches?

#3 Monkey Lover

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 10:50 AM

They nerfed them because a team of IS mechs 1/4 full of trial mechs couldnt win 50% of the time haha Now I got a 100 bucks worth of junky clan mechs that will be getting worse here real soo .

#4 Lefty Lucy

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 11:03 AM

There's plenty of trial clan mechs in the queue now too.

#5 Jonny Taco

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 11:07 AM

View Poststjobe, on 20 September 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

So how do you explain the latest round of IS vs Clan testing then? You know, the one in which Clans still won 73% of matches?


Clan team elo was on average higher than IS team elo. This was directly stated by Russ however I don't think an exact figure was given.

A player posted some very detailed stats showcasing some 1500+ games a couple weeks back. When looking at these more specifically... A good IS team with good IS mechs vs a good clan team with good clan mechs showed less than a 4% difference in overall effectiveness.

#6 Ultimax

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 11:15 AM

View Poststjobe, on 20 September 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

So how do you explain the latest round of IS vs Clan testing then? You know, the one in which Clans still won 73% of matches?



The same way I explained it previously.

1) Clan mechs are all at or near their weight class tonnage cap.
2) Clan faction has less "bad mechs" that are outright awful that players insist on bringing.
3) Out of 8 clan base chassis, 6 of them travel at or near the exact same speed.
4) Clans have 2 lights, one of which is a joke mech and the other has ECM. Nearly every clan team will have ECM.


You want a test weekend? Here''s my offering;


IS vs. Clan Test weekend.

IS players in the following mechs earn double xp, and double cbills and after 20 matches win or lose earn a free mechbay:

Lights
Firestarter
Jenner
Spider
Raven

Medium
Griffin
Shadowhawk

Heavy
Catapult
Jagermech
Cataphract

Assault
Victor
Stalker
Banshee
Atlas


Maybe a few of those are debatable, like the Catapult. Maybe one or two others I missed like the Orion deserve more than I'm giving them.

The point I'm making should be clear though.

#7 Tezcatli

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 11:15 AM

They did say they would be giving the Clans a quirk pass after the IS quirk pass. And the possibility of reverting or reducing the previous nerfs is on the table. But they're going to wait until they see how the balance is after the quirk pass before making further changes to the clans.

#8 Fire and Salt

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 11:22 AM

Clans aren't OP.

The clan lights are worse than IS lights.

The nova has terrible free tonnage and its slow.

The summoner also has terrible free tonnage.

The war hawk has 20 non removable heatsinks, and ferro instead of endo, which limits the builds.




There are 3 clan mech that are completely responsible for any balance issues.
Yet, they Nerf the weapons instead of the problem chassis.

The dire wolf was fine too, until they shrunk the CT. Not sure why that was done. I liked it when it was easy to kill, and easy to kill with.

The timberwolf should get hard points for the JJs, so if you equip an S left torso, you can add 2 jus to the left torso only. This would limit some builds and it would be a good thing. Kit fox should get the same treatment for consistency, but it would barely hurt the kit fox because it has 4 available JJ omnipods.

The stormcrow is also great, but it loses side torsos a lot. I think that a penalty for losing a side torso will hurt the stormcrow alot.

#9 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 11:23 AM

View Poststjobe, on 20 September 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

So how do you explain the latest round of IS vs Clan testing then? You know, the one in which Clans still won 73% of matches?

while not 100% of the answer?
Timber Wolf.
Storm Crow
and the Meta-Whale.

Re-run the testing with those locked out, and lets see if the results are the same. If so then nerfing the weapons more, is needed.

If not, then itps those specific chassis that need the nerf bat, NOT all things clan.

Also, considering the number of cowardly IS Surat who suicided start of match to avoid fighting the big bad clans, I have to say that may have skewed numbers a bit, too. Out of 12 matches dropped during the test, 8-9 had at least on IS mech suicide by running off map or intentional override/overheat. And half of those had at least a full 4 man do it.

But as of now, if you can look at me, and tell me with a straight face that the Nova, Summoner, Adder or Kit Fox are OP? Heck, even the Warhawk is pretty average for an Assault mech.

#10 kf envy

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 11:31 AM


no more of nerfing the clans the only one on the field of battle I may think twice about going toe to toe against is an timber wolf but even then my hunchback 4SP can and has won. the only thing in the game I run away from our IS mechs because the clan mechs have turned into an joke.

PS. will the clan hunchback ever see the light of day in the game?

edit* and this is coming from someone that stopped playing just after 3ed person view was added an just been back 2 days


Edited by kf envy, 20 September 2014 - 11:35 AM.


#11 Elizander

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 11:33 AM

Metawhale is so fun in pub games. You sorta feel like the Terminator sometimes when you mow down 6 mechs on your own. :ph34r:

#12 Ultimax

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 11:38 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 20 September 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

while not 100% of the answer?
Timber Wolf.
Storm Crow
and the Meta-Whale.


Or how about eliminating IS mechs we all know are bad?

How about funneling trial mechs to the bottom rung of Elo?


There are a lot of things that should have been done to make those tests even instead of the bad data that is being collected that leads to blanket nerfs based on poorly controlled conditions.


This is basic testing methodology.

#13 Mystere

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 11:42 AM

View PostLefty Lucy, on 20 September 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

There's plenty of trial clan mechs in the queue now too.


And which we know will be as bad or worse than the junk Clan mechs already around. :(

That's the problem when people demand immediate nerfs in a game that [1] is still missing a whole lot of major components, [2] has a slew of bugs that exacerbate perceived imbalances, and [3] is populated by a whole generation of collectors of these things:


Posted Image

Well, the last one was a dig ... but only in part. ;)

Edited by Mystere, 20 September 2014 - 11:43 AM.


#14 Green Mamba

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 11:45 AM

Well I think the need to add the IS quirks in first before doing anything and see how that pans out.I say this as an IS only player(Merc Unit I joined determined this) at least so far in MWO, although I played Clan Mechs in Previous MW games.Clans were supposed to be OP.Everyone needs to remember its just a game even though we love the BT/MW IP.If down the road well into CW and Clans are still winning a large proportionate of the Time then they can make some changes after it has settled down some and the results will be more accurate than now

#15 Ace of Spades

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 11:46 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 20 September 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

while not 100% of the answer?
Timber Wolf.
Storm Crow
and the Meta-Whale.



And these are the majority of chassis you are currently facing. The TBR is the most versatile clan mech considering omnipod-swaps and is also the most technically advanced.
I see the other chassis too but not as overwhelmingly often as the three mentioned before. So I would agree that Clans over all are not OP, but these specific mechs are definitely better than all the other Clan mechs so far.

#16 Mystere

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 11:46 AM

View Poststjobe, on 20 September 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

So how do you explain the latest round of IS vs Clan testing then? You know, the one in which Clans still won 73% of matches?


Bad testing methodology? Unless of course the whole objective was to measure the performance of Joe Schmoe.

(Should a crop duster pilot be used to compare the French Rafale to the Russian SU-27?)

#17 Darian DelFord

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 11:54 AM

View Poststjobe, on 20 September 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

So how do you explain the latest round of IS vs Clan testing then? You know, the one in which Clans still won 73% of matches?



Easy

The only way to truly tell balance is to have two even sides go at it over and over. the matches I had during that test, we creamed the clans. I eat claners for lunch in my jenner.

#18 Wolfways

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 12:00 PM

View Poststjobe, on 20 September 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

So how do you explain the latest round of IS vs Clan testing then? You know, the one in which Clans still won 73% of matches?

The Clans have better mechwarriors ;)

Tbh i don't even think the Direwolf is OP. It may have a lot of firepower (because AC's are OP) but so does the Jagermech, and it's far easier to get behind a Direwolf than a Jagermech. Like any "support mech" the Direwolf needs an escort.

Edited by Wolfways, 20 September 2014 - 12:07 PM.


#19 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 12:01 PM

View PostUltimatum X, on 20 September 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:


Or how about eliminating IS mechs we all know are bad?

How about funneling trial mechs to the bottom rung of Elo?


There are a lot of things that should have been done to make those tests even instead of the bad data that is being collected that leads to blanket nerfs based on poorly controlled conditions.


This is basic testing methodology.

Because most people are running primarily, the better IS Mechs and builds by now? Whereas you almost can't build a bad TWolf?

Because when all Clan Units are 3 Twolf, 3 SC and 2-3 Metawhales, it should tell you something.

#20 Utilyan

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 12:18 PM

I think the Country Club Premies have to nerf clans especially now more then ever, before those free-playing pugs get a hold of Timber Wolves.........And really show you how its done! :ph34r:





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