21 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

Short TL;DR of the changes [redacted]:

• All Clan mechs with jump jets in a given omni-pod will be locked into the maximum number of jump jets in those omni-pods.
  
• The amount of lift per second will be increased to better reward those using 5 JJ over 4, and will scale better with the more (or less) jets you have.
  
• The in air turn speed with jump jet equipped mechs will be faster the more jump jets your mech mounts.

What does this mean, and why am I not freaking out over this? (Warning, wall of text incoming)

It creates mech role diversification. This is something I have been clamoring on about since just after it became apparent that all IS light mechs can do the same job regardless of chassis. This game has suffered from gun-box syndrome for a long time now, whereby every mech can do almost every role its same class counterparts could do, with minor variations in hit boxes and available tonnage differentiating them from one another. This promotes min-max-itis, where one chassis will naturally be superior to the others given otherwise equal configuration flexibility, leading to the eventual (if not extinction) phasing out of certain mechs. Ironically, in tabletop, Clan mechs were the gunboxes, sized to fit BV or tonnage limitations, and it was not healthy back then either.

Examples of that include the energy AWS prior to the last quirk pass as the Stalker was the better energy boat, the DRG line of mechs (with possible exception of the Flame) because what of any worth did it bring that the Quickdraw did not bring better, HGN when the VTR took over, or the Jenner when the Firestarter was released.

Quite honestly, the game needs tighter restrictions on unique niches for specific mechs. This promotes mech diversification on the field, makes it so that any mech you take brings something unique to the fight, and as a result makes the game not only more tactical but healthier. A Raven was never supposed to be a long range scout/hunter killer but was made to fill a role that the KFX tends to do now as an ECM escort and support platform for heavier mechs, for example. You cannot turn a commercial airliner into a fighter jet no matter what you do to it, nor a rubber dingy into a yacht. Vehicles have limitations in their frames based on what jobs they were designed to do.

Where am I going with this?

By making you invest more tonnage and crit points into fixed omnipod jump jets, it creates specific jobs that certain mech chassis are simply better at. Now if you wanted an LRM carrier, the fixed jump jets in the Timber Wolf S really pushes you to use the Mad Dog - a mech that was purpose made to be a support platform. If you want a poptart or brawler, the Summoner not only has the superior hitboxes for armor rolling vs the Timber Wolf but already comes with the prerequisite number of Jump Jets. If you try to force the Timber Wolf, a mech that is supposed to be a jack of all trades anyways, to focus itself on doing the Summoner's job, well, you can, but you trade (IMO) inferior hit boxes and a larger target for a smidge more armor and a whopping 2 tons of additional pod space (well, and 1 freebie DHS). When the Hellbringer is released, we will be seeing a heavy support mech option, as well, that only that mech can fill the role of.

Point is, it creates role diversification. The game needs this.

Now, I know it sucks for pilots who have built chassis around the S side torso hardpoints sans jump jets. Believe me, I really do know. However, this is a time to take a step back and look at the positive ramifications this change might bring to the quality of life of the game or, at least, Clan tech. Might be one of those times to take one for the team, because at the end of the day it promotes a better game, with more meaningful options and decision making when it comes to choosing the mech you want to run.

Edited by Egomane, 30 September 2014 - 12:15 PM.
Language violation

[D34DMetal]

It is my understanding that the JJ changes to thrust and turning will apply to IS mechs as well? I think the Summoner was just used as an example.

[Pariah Devalis]

DeadMetal89, on 30 September 2014 - 06:02 AM, said:

It is my understanding that the JJ changes to thrust and turning will apply to IS mechs as well? I think the Summoner was just used as an example.

It will be. But I was more or less aiming this at the people who currently have their panties in a bunch because of the changes. Some good QOL changes that are being overlooked in a kneejerk reaction, as par the course.

[FupDup]

I don't like the Omnimech JJ forcing outside of mechs with it on the base config because it hurts more than just the Mad Cat. The Mad Cat isn't the only Clan mech in the game. In this case, the Kit Fox definitely lost its ability to use the 2 UAC/2 troll build, and in general doesn't have the ability to use either ballistic side torso even if it doesn't want to jump at all.

The Mad Cat should have been directly nerfed in a way that didn't touch any other Clan mechs, so that we could actually disrupt the "relative" standing of each mech (i.e. bring the best ones down a little bit, bring the worst ones up a little bit). Across-the-board changes don't stop the best ones from remaining the best and the sub-par ones from remaining sub-par. That's exactly what happened with all of the laser heat and other various nerfs. Mad Cats and Ryokens (Dire Whales to a lesser extent) still steal the lunches of the others and eat everything, and Badders still cry themselves to sleep at night.

And that's certainly going to be the case after this change. LRM and SRM boat builds will get smacked, but the meta "Laser Vomit" build will be able to get away relatively easily. Smurfys link: LASER VOMIT

Edited by FupDup, 30 September 2014 - 06:11 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Run a single UAC5 instead of twin UAC2 on the troll fox then? I used to, anyways. Works fine, and you get to keep the ECM. Side benefit, the limited jump jets actually still kinda work on light mechs. Adder gets a relative buff to the Kit Fox because no wasted JJ tonnage, as it already comes with more armor and easier to armor roll armor sections. Nova gets the full benefit of the jump jet changes, as well - though it is still such a niche utility mech overall.

There is much ado about nothing, here. This is not like a weapon change. This impacts mechs that chose to take JJ capable torso (or leg) sections, and that limits it to the Kit Fox and Timber Wolf.

Edit: leg sections too, doh!

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 30 September 2014 - 06:19 AM.

[FupDup]

Pariah Devalis, on 30 September 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

---
There is much ado about nothing, here. This is not like a weapon change. This impacts mechs that chose to take JJ capable torso sections, and that limits it to the Kit Fox and Timber Wolf.

One of which doesn't need the change (the Cute Fox). We shouldn't design across-the-board changes that exist for the singular purpose of nerfing the Mad Cat -- we should design specific, targeted nerfs to accomplish that goal. The list of mechs with JJ pods is currently just two mechs long, but it will get at least a little bit more populated in the future.

When we change global rules just to spite a single outlier mech, things are getting wonky.

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 30 September 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

One of which doesn't need the change (the Cute Fox). We shouldn't design across-the-board changes that exist for the singular purpose of nerfing the Mad Cat -- we should design specific, targeted nerfs to accomplish that goal. The list of mechs with JJ pods is currently just two mechs long, but it will get at least a little bit more populated in the future.

When we change global rules just to spite a single outlier mech, things are getting wonky.

While I'm right there with you about global rule changes to spite a single build (of which there are many serious examples through MWO's history)...

It's not just to spite the Timberwolf. The alternative was really to un-lock all JJ's, because the Summoner and Nova suffered a lot from being forced to take 5 each. The change unifies how JJ's work across all Clan Mechs, so it's a little more straight forward.

It hurts the Cute Fox a very little bit (one of the ST's can no longer mount a UAC2), but it works in favour of making future Clan mechs with jump capable variants work better too (they're not "hurt", as you never had any other options with them). And that Cute Fox Side torso is also the strongest of those side torsos, being the only one with a hardpoint at all.

In terms of the Timberwolf itself, it's definitely a good move for the -S side torsos. As things stand (and the real reason most people are up in arms, whether they admit it or not) the -S side torsos are by far the best torsos. There's almost no reason at all not to use them. Now, those are no longer simply the best side torsos.

So, yeah, the Kitfox isn't severely impacted by this change, the Timberwolf is if anything fixed by it. It's great to see the other torsos be more competitive. Comparatively, the Summoner and Nova aren't as terrible (though they're still not spectacular).

In the grand scheme of things, it helps Clan Mechs overall be less polarized between fantastic and awful.

Outside of Jump Jets, the coming Quirk Pass is going to help the issues Pariah addresses in his OP a lot too.

Currently, IS mechs are particularly bad for being Bags Of Hardpoints, and variant effectiveness is determined almost entirely by it's hardpoint collection, with different variants sporting the same build being effectively identical.

This quirk pass will make some variants simply better at a given build than others, and generally make variants much more diverse with a focus on making currently less effective variants better. I seriously can't wait for this.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 30 September 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

While I'm right there with you about global rule changes to spite a single build (of which there are many serious examples through MWO's history)...

It's not just to spite the Timberwolf. The alternative was really to un-lock all JJ's, because the Summoner and Nova suffered a lot from being forced to take 5 each. The change unifies how JJ's work across all Clan Mechs, so it's a little more straight forward.
---

That logic would apply to every single hardwired item in the game.

I think it's unfair that the Mist Lynx has to have an Active Probe stuck in it forever, so clearly we need to make all Clan mechs with an Active Probe in an Omnipod carry it hardwired.

I think it's unfair that the Badder has to waste 0.5 tons on a CT Flamer, so clearly every Clan mech that came with a Flamer stock needs to keep that Flamer forever.

I think it's unfair that Peacedoves need so many hardwired DHS, so clearly every Clan Omnipod with DHS should have them hardwired.

...Why do JJs need to be the exception to this rule?



And yes, this change was in fact added for the singular and sole purpose of addressing the Mad Cat, and nothing more or less. Kit Foxes aren't taking over the game or ruling their weight class like everybody's favorite 75 ton heavy is. How about a compromise and make this rule only apply to the TBR?

Edited by FupDup, 30 September 2014 - 07:47 AM.

[Turist0AT]

Didnt know there were a JJ change. Is it online now?

Im just happy to see buffs.

[FupDup]

Turist0AT, on 30 September 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

Didnt know there were a JJ change. Is it online now?

Im just happy to see buffs.

No, not yet. JJ thrust will be tweaked a little bit on October 7th, and Omnipods with JJ hardpoints will have their JJs permanently wired to them on October 7th or the 21st.

http://mwomercs.com/...d-map-feedback/

Edited by FupDup, 30 September 2014 - 08:02 AM.

[Turist0AT]

FupDup, on 30 September 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

No, not yet. JJ thrust will be tweaked a little bit on October 7th, and Omnipods with JJ hardpoints will have their JJs permanently wired to them on October 7th or the 21st.

http://mwomercs.com/...d-map-feedback/

oh that did not sound good. Non of my timber builds packs jets, does it mean the build will break?

[FupDup]

Turist0AT, on 30 September 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

oh that did not sound good. Non of my timber builds packs jets, does it mean the build will break?

If you use any TBR-S side torso, you'll need to carry 2 jets (for each one, meaning 4 if you combine both). If you use the TBR-S CT, you'll need 1 jet. The way to sort of sidestep this nerf is to use just 1 TBR-S side torso so you only get forced to carry 2 jets, and don't use the TBR-S CT.

Edited by FupDup, 30 September 2014 - 08:08 AM.

[Turist0AT]

FupDup, on 30 September 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

If you use any TBR-S side torso, you'll need to carry 2 jets (for each one, meaning 4 if you combine both). If you use the TBR-S CT, you'll need 1 jet. The way to sort of sidestep this nerf is to use just 1 TBR-S side torso so you only get forced to carry 2 jets, and don't use the TBR-S CT.

Thx for clarification. Does this affects nova much?

[FupDup]

Turist0AT, on 30 September 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

Thx for clarification. Does this affects nova much?

The Nova's jets are all hardwired to the base config to begin with, so it won't be harmed by this change.

[Livewyr]

I am looking forward to the changes.

My TBR-S (already with 5 JJs) will feel more springy, and my TBR-Prime build will have to move over to the TBR C to take advantage of the CT Energy slot. I will lose one JJ, and that will be a little sad.. but it just means another DHS or a TC.

It will also help Summoners be a little more competitive compared to the TBR. (TBR comes down a whee bit overall, SMN goes up a whee bit overall.)

I did not see much in that Roadmap I did not like. (Who the hell is this, and what did they do with PGI?)

[Pariah Devalis]

Which brings me to something I wanted to add but work got in the way:

The bad clan mechs are not bad at all. This includes the Adder. They are only "bad" in comparison to their in class competition. The very fact that the adder is consistently shunned in favor of the kit fox supports this, and is made all the more funny, considering before the S and ECM variant of the fox was confirmed it was going to be the other way around. With slap on the wrist jj issues for certain troll builds, it gives legitimacy to taking the better armored, easier to armor roll, more heavily armed Adder instead.

[Andi Nagasia]

i think this is going too far,
i feel this sets a bad president,

yes the adder has fixed flamer,
but it says so in lore and on TT,
but also this,

FupDup, on 30 September 2014 - 06:00 AM, said:

Because that's literally how the Omnimech rules work.

Each Omni has what is called a "base" configuration. This base includes armor, internal structure, engine, weapons, heatsinks, and/or other equipment for the chassis to use. Anything present on the base config is permanently stuck to the Omnimech forever and can't ever be removed. This includes the Summoner and Nova Jump Jets. They are built into the base configuration, so you don't ever get to remove them.

The Mad Cat, however, does NOT feature Jump Jets on its base configuration, which means they are not required equipment for all builds. The Omnimech rules just so happen to allow items like JJs to be added to any Omnimech config up to a mech's walking MP (in this case, 5 jets for the Mad Cat if he optionally chose to install them). Jump Jets work the same way as most other equipment on Omnis does. Those ER Medium Lasers on your Nova's arm aren't hardwired to the base config, they can be added and removed at will. The same goes for heatsinks. You can add or remove more at any time (excluding the default hardwired number) so long as you have the slots and tonnage for it.


A better solution than forcing JJ usage on mechs that weren't designed to require JJs would be to actually MAKE IT WORTHWHILE TO USE THAT MANY JETS in the first place.

Let's use the variable "X" to represent how "good" a single Jump Jet would be. So, this means that using 2 JJs should give 2X effectiveness. 3 JJs should be 3X the power. 5 JJs should be 5X the power. So on and so forth. Then, people who forked over the tonnage and slots for more than 2-3 JJs would be appropriately rewarded for their sacrifice, and we could have avoided this whole situation. But nope, PGI wants to have a "diminishing returns" system for their JJs, rather than a directly linear scale.

Few would try to deny that the Mad Cat could use some form of nerf (I've suggested some nerfs of my own, in other threads) but the problem that some players (including myself) have with this specific idea is that it doesn't just hurt the Mad Cat a bit, it hurts any future Omnimechs that use pod-mounted JJs instead of hardwired. The Cute Fox already fits the bill for that, and is at least slightly nerfed (arguably undeserving) by this "solution."

We should have had some kind of nerf that affected the Mad Cat and only the Mad Cat, not some arbitrary across-the-board global nerf just to spite everybody's favorite 75 ton heavy. We need to stop making balancing adjustments that are intended to target the Mad Cat but hit everybody else just as hard, because it won't disrupt the relative standing of the Clan lineup (i.e. the best ones still stay the best, the sub-par ones stay sub-par).

i agree with the above and people who are saying
"well its not that bad, ive always had 5 JJ on my TBR"
well then you have a bias for this,

your not looking at this like the people who need those Tons or ST space,
your looking at it as well i wont effect me so i don't care,
people need to understand what this will do,
with the TBR-S parts, KFX-S parts,
and every other C-S variant ever,

[Pariah Devalis]

Two words: Mad Dog
Now, the timing of this might not be the best, as having a full stable of clan mechs to suit any desired role *first* would have been optimal. However, if you want to go LRM heavy, the Mad Dog is your mech. If you want a speedy SRM brawling delivery system, the Summoner is actually a fantastic mech but the quad ermlas quad A-srm6 twolf will still be pretty awesome.
I think the change is good, but the timing is definitely off.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 30 September 2014 - 09:36 AM.

[divinedisclaimer]

Yeah I'll just switch to using the TBR-C for the 6th energy point in the nose, stop using jumpjets altogether, and continue hitting you with 45+ point laser alphas.

Thing being, I used to run builds that were a lot less "OP" but they all just got eliminated by this change, because they were using all the crit space in the TBR-S torsos.

Maybe I'll literally start pop-tarting again, since I'll be forced to be able to.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Well at least they are finally going to fix JJs in general, I am really happy about this, happy like you can't imagine.

Still disagree about "fixing" JJs to chassis that don't have fixed JJs in the first place simply because changing the way they mount JJs to Clan mechs doesn't do anything to actually change balance. There is just no good reason to make this change other than to mollify those people who own Summoners and Novas and want to be able to remove some or all of the JJs from those mechs. What is worse, this still isn't going to satisfy Summoner and Nova owners because what they want is to be able to remove JJs from these mech not see them get "fixed" to other mechs.